465 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

I see paragon choices as a spectrum of Lawful stupid running the gauntlet to just plain stupid with perhaps a few being semi-rational.

The only ones that I agree with the in-game reasoning are saving the Council and curing the genophage for the war effort, not out of compassion for the krogan. I'll also throw in choosing Samara over Morinth because choosing Morinth is just plain idiotic.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

^Pretty much this, though I can also see taking a risk on the Rachni as something I can work with via metagaming.

[SeptimusMagistos]

iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...

How people see intentionally seizing absolute power as parangon move is beyond me. .

It's not rocket science. Like other Paragon choices, Control avoids a short term loss by running a long-term risk.

IS that seriously all you see Paragon acts as?  

Well, it's a little more complicated than that, but that is a well-established precedent. A Paragon is someone who cures the genophage in the face of any studies and predictions the salarians wave at them. A Paragon is someone who trust the Rachni enough to let them go. A Paragon faces additional enemy resistance rather than divert it towards the team whose sole job is to divert enemies. A Paragon saves the Destiny Ascention rather than concentrating on Sovereign. A Paragon lets a terrorist go free to save the victims of his latest plot. Paragons save lives, no matter what dangers that might bring down the line.

Modifié par SeptimusMagistos, 26 juin 2013 - 10:48 .

[AlanC9]

iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...

How people see intentionally seizing absolute power as parangon move is beyond me. .

It's not rocket science. Like other Paragon choices, Control avoids a short term loss by running a long-term risk.

IS that seriously all you see Paragon acts as?  

Not all, but mostly.

[SeptimusMagistos]

xray16 wrote...

There is no Paragon-Victory ending.Paragons lose.

How do you figure?

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

xray16 wrote...

There is no Paragon-Victory ending.Paragons lose.

It is soooooo much easier to play Paragade in 3.

[Uncle Jo]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Well, it's a little more complicated than that, but that is a well-established precedent. A Paragon is someone who cures the genophage in the face of any studies and predictions the salarians wave at them. A Paragon is someone who trust the Rachni enough to let them go. A Paragon faces additional enemy resistance rather than divert it towards the team whose sole job is to divert enemies. A Paragon saves the Destiny Ascention rather than concentrating on Sovereign. A Paragon lets a terrorist go free to save the victims of his latest plot. Paragons save lives, no matter what dangers that might bring down the line.

All the examples you mentioned imply something I didn't find in the blue option: Faith. 

Shep had faith in the Rachni, the Krogan and the Destiny Ascension and the Fifth Fleet as she helped them or et them go. 

By choosing blue, you gave up on faith. You acknowledged that the galaxy needs an overseer. That your kind and all the other races, be it organics or synthetics, will never be able to get along with each other or make the right decision. That they'll always need a cop, a guide to show them the way. 

For all I know, the blue option is mainly about controlling the most powerful force that ever existed. Absolutely unmatched. A force that dictated the path of the galaxy and constantly broke its balance for eons. 

EDIT: So saving the Geth, while nice and all, is imo absolutely not the main point of this choice (or for Destroy). It's about either maintaining the cop-system or letting the galaxy evolve freely, at its own risks. For once.

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 27 juin 2013 - 01:34 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

Uncle Jo wrote...

EDIT: So saving the Geth, while nice and all, is imo absolutely not the main point of this choice (or for Destroy). It's about either maintaining the cop-system or letting the galaxy evolve freely, at its own risks. For once.

See, I disagree. The destruction of the geth may have been a tacked-on consequence, but it played a very real part in my decision. My Shepard didn't spend three games campaigning for synthetic rights only to decide that something - anything - justified their deaths. Destroy became instantly and irrevocably unacceptable.

And honestly, Control embodies another well-established Paragon trait - handling things yourself. Renegades might be content to leave people alone with their problems, but Paragons are willing to bear the weight of the world, to take responsibility for all those around them. Paragon Control is an extension of that - Shepard ascends and becomes not a ruler or a policeman but a protector and helper, involving himself in every problem in the galaxy, big or small. Paragons do not leave people to sort out their own problems. They do it for them.

[AlanC9]

Uncle Jo wrote...
]All the examples you mentioned imply something I didn't find in the blue option: Faith. 

Shep had faith in the Rachni, the Krogan and the Destiny Ascension and the Fifth Fleet as she helped them or et them go. 

By choosing blue, you gave up on faith. You acknowledged that the galaxy needs an overseer. That your kind and all the other races, be it organics or synthetics, will never be able to get along with each other or make the right decision. That they'll always need a cop, a guide to show them the way. 

Not a huge fan of faith, personally, but doesn't Control Shep need to have faith in herself?

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...

How people see intentionally seizing absolute power as parangon move is beyond me. .

It's not rocket science. Like other Paragon choices, Control avoids a short term loss by running a long-term risk.

IS that seriously all you see Paragon acts as?  

Not all, but mostly.

How sad...

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

Not a huge fan of faith, personally, but doesn't Control Shep need to have faith in herself?

No.  Because it's not Shepard.  It's Shepard's memories, divorced from Shepard's humanity.  

 If a live Shepard could assume direct control of the fleet,that might be more tempting.

[CronoDragoon]

Reorte wrote...
It's the people who prevent wars from happening in the first place who have done that.

Sure, but that's obviously not applicable to the Reaper war.

iakus wrote...
IS that seriously all you see Paragon acts as?  [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/andy.png[/smilie]

That is the general outline for Paragon decisions in my opinion, yes. Since you seem to be in the minority opinion at the moment, can you provide counterexamples?

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 27 juin 2013 - 02:56 .

[Archonsg]

iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Not a huge fan of faith, personally, but doesn't Control Shep need to have faith in herself?

No.  Because it's not Shepard.  It's Shepard's memories, divorced from Shepard's humanity.  

 If a live Shepard could assume direct control of the fleet,that might be more tempting.

Precisely.
Sadly, many do not see the entity that came from the control choice as the construct that it is but think and refer to it as "Shepard". It is not. 
It's an AI or a very advanced VI created by the Catalyst, coded by the Catalyst with parameters and constraints set by the Catalyst, using a "Shepard Personality" overlay.

That said, Control is the least destructive of the three original choices. 

Like you said, had there been the option for a "live" Shepard to take control of the Citadel and all reaper forces, my Shepard would have immediately stopped the war, gather all reaper forces, evacuated any remaining survivors in the citadel and promptly move the Citadel and every single Reaper and their cronies into the sun.

Sacrifice, check.
Accepting an ultimatum but turning the tables to our advantage and on our terms, check.
Removing the blight that is the Reapers, check.
United Galactic victory (even if Shepard doesn't survive ... but I can still see his recue as a possibility), check.
Epic win, CHECK.
Not the current POS, capitualtive "victory".

Modifié par Archonsg, 27 juin 2013 - 03:05 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Not a huge fan of faith, personally, but doesn't Control Shep need to have faith in herself?

No.  Because it's not Shepard.  It's Shepard's memories, divorced from Shepard's humanity.  

 If a live Shepard could assume direct control of the fleet,that might be more tempting.

See, if you take the position that there is not significant difference between organics and synthetics, that doesn't matter much.

[Iakus]

CronoDragoon wrote...
That is the general outline for Paragon decisions in my opinion, yes. Since you seem to be in the minority opinion at the moment, can you provide counterexamples?

Paragon is the more compassionate route.  It's the path that tries to avoid collateral damage.

If Wrex and Eve are dead, sabotaging the genophage becomes the paragon act, as krogan leadership under Wreav's sole rule would be..."problematic"

[Iakus]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

See, if you take the position that there is not significant difference between organics and synthetics, that doesn't matter much.

Except i do take the position that there's a difference.  EDI's difficulty in understanding human emotions and behavior makes that plain.  I simply say that both are worthy of life.

Edit:  Not to mention the previous Catalyst went nuts as well.

Modifié par iakus, 27 juin 2013 - 03:15 .

[Hey]

what do you think a paragon is? i just know its blue.

[Uncle Jo]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

See, I disagree. The destruction of the geth may have been a tacked-on consequence, but it played a very real part in my decision. My Shepard didn't spend three games campaigning for synthetic rights only to decide that something - anything - justified their deaths. Destroy became instantly and irrevocably unacceptable.

See I disagree. I didn't spend the three games hunting down every guy who tried to compromise or control the Reapers and made TIM kill himself, telling him that "We're not ready for this kind of power" (parangon dialogue option) just to jump on the rods as soon as the option is somehow avalaible. 

And honestly, Control embodies another well-established Paragon trait - handling things yourself. Renegades might be content to leave people alone with their problems, but Paragons are willing to bear the weight of the world, to take responsibility for all those around them. Paragon Control is an extension of that - Shepard ascends and becomes not a ruler or a policeman but a protector and helper, involving himself in every problem in the galaxy, big or small. Paragons do not leave people to sort out their own problems. They do it for them.

Really? I'm curious to see how you're going to involve yourself in every problem of the galaxy. Big or small you say, don't you know that's how a dictatorship begins? Who're you going to help? Based on what? How're you going to do it? 

DId it happen to you to consider the fact that people maybe don't want your help?

Read some history books, watch the world around you. They're full of examples of what you're trying to achieve. All failures. Every. Single. Attempt.

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 27 juin 2013 - 03:29 .

[Iakus]

Uncle Jo wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

]And honestly, Control embodies another well-established Paragon trait - handling things yourself. Renegades might be content to leave people alone with their problems, but Paragons are willing to bear the weight of the world, to take responsibility for all those around them. Paragon Control is an extension of that - Shepard ascends and becomes not a ruler or a policeman but a protector and helper, involving himself in every problem in the galaxy, big or small. Paragons do not leave people to sort out their own problems. They do it for them.

Really? I'm curious to see how you're going to involve yourself in every problem of the galaxy. Big or small you say, don't you know that's how a dictatorship begins? Who're you going to help? Based on what? How're you going to do it? 

DId it happen to you to consider the fact that people maybe don't want your help?

Read some history books, watch the world around you. They're full of examples of what you're trying to achieve. All failures. Every. Single. Attempt.

Not to mention Shepard is not helping anyone anyway, Shepard is dead.  D-E-A-D.  What you have is Shepard's memories imprinted on the very machine that went nuts all those millions of years ago and virtually wiped out its creators without the aid of Reapers.

[Nightwriter]

iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...

How people see intentionally seizing absolute power as parangon move is beyond me. .

It's not rocket science. Like other Paragon choices, Control avoids a short term loss by running a long-term risk.

IS that seriously all you see Paragon acts as?  

Not all, but mostly.

How sad...

Yeah, renegade often takes bets on the long game. Except in the renegade version you're usually committing a short term taboo or atrocity on the hope of some uncertain consequentialist future payoff (like new technology or what have you).

[111987]

iakus wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

]And honestly, Control embodies another well-established Paragon trait - handling things yourself. Renegades might be content to leave people alone with their problems, but Paragons are willing to bear the weight of the world, to take responsibility for all those around them. Paragon Control is an extension of that - Shepard ascends and becomes not a ruler or a policeman but a protector and helper, involving himself in every problem in the galaxy, big or small. Paragons do not leave people to sort out their own problems. They do it for them.

Really? I'm curious to see how you're going to involve yourself in every problem of the galaxy. Big or small you say, don't you know that's how a dictatorship begins? Who're you going to help? Based on what? How're you going to do it? 

DId it happen to you to consider the fact that people maybe don't want your help?

Read some history books, watch the world around you. They're full of examples of what you're trying to achieve. All failures. Every. Single. Attempt.

Not to mention Shepard is not helping anyone anyway, Shepard is dead.  D-E-A-D.  What you have is Shepard's memories imprinted on the very machine that went nuts all those millions of years ago and virtually wiped out its creators without the aid of Reapers.

Your phrasing here is quite misleading. It is Shepard's memories and personality that OVERWRITE the Catalyst. The Shepard gains the capabilities of the Catalyst, but not its memories, beliefs, etc...

[Iakus]

111987 wrote...

Your phrasing here is quite misleading. It is Shepard's memories and personality that OVERWRITE the Catalyst. The Shepard gains the capabilities of the Catalyst, but not its memories, beliefs, etc...

So?  The same thing could happen to the Shepard personality (which is also a very misleading term as it's not SHepard's personality, but a new AI based on SHepard's esxperiences)

[111987]

iakus wrote...

111987 wrote...

Your phrasing here is quite misleading. It is Shepard's memories and personality that OVERWRITE the Catalyst. The Shepard gains the capabilities of the Catalyst, but not its memories, beliefs, etc...

So?  The same thing could happen to the Shepard personality (which is also a very misleading term as it's not SHepard's personality, but a new AI based on SHepard's esxperiences)

The circumstances are entirely different. The Catalyst was not an organic-turned machine. It was an AI designed to solve a particular problem. The Shepard-Catalyst is not designed to do anything; it's free to choose what it does with the Reapers (as seen in the difference between Renegade and Paragon Shepards).

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Uncle Jo wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Well, it's a little more complicated than that, but that is a well-established precedent. A Paragon is someone who cures the genophage in the face of any studies and predictions the salarians wave at them. A Paragon is someone who trust the Rachni enough to let them go. A Paragon faces additional enemy resistance rather than divert it towards the team whose sole job is to divert enemies. A Paragon saves the Destiny Ascention rather than concentrating on Sovereign. A Paragon lets a terrorist go free to save the victims of his latest plot. Paragons save lives, no matter what dangers that might bring down the line.

All the examples you mentioned imply something I didn't find in the blue option: Faith. 

Shep had faith in the Rachni, the Krogan and the Destiny Ascension and the Fifth Fleet as she helped them or et them go.

Actually, Blue seems to have a lot of faith in the decision being made, just like all of the above decisions.

Red requires no real faith to speak of: shoot the pipe and the problem goes away, no worries.

It doesn't require optimism or pessimism in the galaxy, just the ability to rid it of a bad thing in a non-commital way.