465 réponses à ce sujet

[SeptimusMagistos]

Uncle Jo wrote...

See I disagree. I didn't spend the three games hunting down every guy who tried to compromise or control the Reapers and made TIM kill himself, telling him that "We're not ready for this kind of power" (parangon dialogue option) just to jump on the rods as soon as the option is somehow avalaible.

Yeah, that was disappointing. I wish there was a version that went : (You specifically) are not ready for that kind of power."

Uncle Jo wrote...
Really? I'm curious to see how you're going to involve yourself in every problem of the galaxy. Big or small you say, don't you know that's how a dictatorship begins? Who're you going to help? Based on what? How're you going to do it?

ME3 style. Inconspicuously listen to people's conversations until they off-handedly mention something they need, then fetch it for them.

Forever.

[Iakus]

111987 wrote...

The circumstances are entirely different. The Catalyst was not an organic-turned machine. It was an AI designed to solve a particular problem. The Shepard-Catalyst is not designed to do anything; it's free to choose what it does with the Reapers (as seen in the difference between Renegade and Paragon Shepards).

That doesn't mean it can't take it's choices to deadly extremes.  It's not bound by Shepard's personality.  Indeed, it's speech already shows it's changing.

[111987]

iakus wrote...

111987 wrote...

The circumstances are entirely different. The Catalyst was not an organic-turned machine. It was an AI designed to solve a particular problem. The Shepard-Catalyst is not designed to do anything; it's free to choose what it does with the Reapers (as seen in the difference between Renegade and Paragon Shepards).

That doesn't mean it can't take it's choices to deadly extremes.  It's not bound by Shepard's personality.  Indeed, it's speech already shows it's changing.

The thing with Control is it is quite open-ended. I think the fact that because Shepard is not bound to any particular course of action, and still has his memories/personality intact means he will not become a crazed, genocidal dicator. But I can understand why you would believe otherwise.

[Bill Casey]

Just to put the information out there, the official player's guide calls the endings morally gray and says the player may feel Destroying the Reapers is Paragon or Controlling the Reapers is Paragon...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 27 juin 2013 - 04:13 .

[Iakus]

111987 wrote...

The thing with Control is it is quite open-ended. I think the fact that because Shepard is not bound to any particular course of action, and still has his memories/personality intact means he will not become a crazed, genocidal dicator. But I can understand why you would believe otherwise.

Shepard is bound to a particular course of action:  Suicide by electrocution.

Whatever the new AIi does is open to interpretation.  But the known history fo the Catalyst (particularly back when it was "the Intelligence" ) does not leave me optimistic.

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...

Paragon is the more compassionate route.  It's the path that tries to avoid collateral damage.

So you can see how some Paragons see Control as optimal.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 27 juin 2013 - 04:23 .

[Uncle Jo]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Yeah, that was disappointing. I wish there was a version that went : (You specifically) are not ready for that kind of power."

I found it personally consistent. No one can be ready for this.

ME3 style. Inconspicuously listen to people's conversations until they off-handedly mention something they need, then fetch it for them.

Forever.

I lol'd. You won the Internet today.

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 27 juin 2013 - 04:23 .

[Iakus]

CronoDragoon wrote...

iakus wrote...

Paragon is the more compassionate route.  It's the path that tries to avoid collateral damage.

So you can see how some Paragons see Control as optimal.

For those who think "This time it will be different" maybe...

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...

For those who think "This time it will be different" maybe...

Absolutely, because they've used that logic before.

Salarian: The krogans started an empire and tried to take over the galaxy, causing untold destruction. And you want to cure them so they can do it again?

Shepard: This time will be different.

Letting the Rachni free: this time will be different.

Catalyst: Organics and synthetics will never get along.

Shepard: This time will be different, and in order to save these synthetics who coexist with us I will choose Control to make it so.

Note that I still choose Destroy, but Control definitely has a strong Paragon reasoning behind it. (it can also have a strong Renegade reasoning obviously, which is reflected in BW's decision to make two separate versions of the monologue)

[Iakus]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Absolutely, because they've used that logic before.

Salarian: The krogans started an empire and tried to take over the galaxy, causing untold destruction. And you want to cure them so they can do it again?

Shepard: This time will be different.

Because Wrex and/or Eve are showing the krogan a different path, and there are more species out there to stop the krogan if they get destructive again.

Keep in mind, Wrex and Eve's survival determines is sabotaging the cure is paragon or renegade

Letting the Rachni free: this time will be different.

Hopefully with no reapers out there to deliver sour yellow notes it will be differnt

Catalyst: Organics and synthetics will never get along.

Shepard: This time will be different, and in order to save these synthetics who coexist with us I will choose Control to make it so.

Ah, there you go, make it so.  Forcing the species to get along with your unstoppable fleet of superdreadnoughts and armies of cybernetic zombies is taking the Paragon "can't we all just get along" to a stomach-churning extreme.  It's basically letting Master Li win in Jade EMpire.

Edit:  ANd that's assuming whatever glitch caused the original Catalyst to go all screwy doesn't crop up again.

Modifié par iakus, 27 juin 2013 - 04:42 .

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...

Because Wrex and/or Eve are showing the krogan a different path, and there are more species out there to stop the krogan if they get destructive again.

Keep in mind, Wrex and Eve's survival determines is sabotaging the cure is paragon or renegade.

A similar parallel can exist with the Catalyst/Shepard.

Hopefully with no reapers out there to deliver sour yellow notes it will be differnt

Indeed.

Ah, there you go, make it so.  Forcing the species to get along with your unstoppable fleet of superdreadnoughts and armies of cybernetic zombies is taking the Paragon "can't we all just get along" to a stomach-churning extreme.  It's basically letting Master Li win in Jade EMpire.

Edit:  ANd that's assuming whatever glitch caused the original Catalyst to go all screwy doesn't crop up again.

You twisted my meaning a bit; it had nothing to do with post-decision. The very act of choosing Control makes it so; allows for the current organics/synthetics to continue living together in peace.

There's no glitch with the Catalyst; his programming merely sucked. It wasn't specific enough and quite frankly appears to be quite simplistic. But with Shepard his entire personality is being encoded; emotions, love, ability to listen to others, etc. There's obviously reason to believe that something could go wrong, but there's also reason to believe this time will be different. Paragons might bank on that "could" "might" etc in order to prevent harm from being "certainly" done now, at this very moment.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

I highly doubt that the (wo)man whose only goal in life was saving the galaxy from total annihilation -- even when the act of resistance had no chance until the Crucible was discovered -- would suddenly come to a decision of "lol it's genocide time, galaxy!"

[CronoDragoon]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

I highly doubt that the (wo)man whose only goal in life was saving the galaxy from total annihilation -- even when the act of resistance had no chance until the Crucible was discovered -- would suddenly come to a decision of "lol it's genocide time, galaxy!"

Well, it's a good thing none of the endings do that.

[Cobalt2113]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Well, it's a good thing none of the endings do that.

Unless you pick refuse. Then it really is genocide time, for everyone.

[CronoDragoon]

Oh, I forgot about Refuse. It's now obvious that's what Hyr meant...Sorry. People have been throwing around "genocide" and "Destroy" in the same sentence again in other threads so I was looking for a fight.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 27 juin 2013 - 05:05 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

CronoDragoon wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

I highly doubt that the (wo)man whose only goal in life was saving the galaxy from total annihilation -- even when the act of resistance had no chance until the Crucible was discovered -- would suddenly come to a decision of "lol it's genocide time, galaxy!"

Well, it's a good thing none of the endings do that.

I was speaking to the general concern everyone seems to have about Shepard randomly deciding to restart the cycles in Control. Or if we're going to argue whether or not it's really Shepard, why the "new Catalyst" would come around to concluding the cycles need to restart despite the late Shepard's whole life being dedicated to stopping it.

To that end, many Controllers are people who choose it expressly to avoid major collateral or sweeping change.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 27 juin 2013 - 05:10 .

[CronoDragoon]

I swear this board is going to turn my canon ending into Control.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

CronoDragoon wrote...

I swear this board is going to turn my canon ending into Control.

Don't do it!

Red is better than blue!

And besides Destroy Shep gets a cape, the ladies dig the cape!

[dreamgazer]

CronoDragoon wrote...

I swear this board is going to turn my canon ending into Control.

How so?

[CronoDragoon]

dreamgazer wrote...

How so?

I already think it's the most interesting post-ME3 setting, since I'm a fan of the Dune series, and in general the plotline wherein a former hero turns into a villain. So, if crap goes wrong, Control is fascinating. If crap goes right, you saved all the synthetics at the cost of only your life and stabilized the ME future.

Still, I just can't get past the autonomy that Destroy gives. Yeah, you destroy the geth and EDI. But if you believed in organic/synthetic relations pre-ending, then you should post-Destroy as well.

It's a tough choice. Synthesis not so much, but that's mostly because I don't find it an interesting ending, morals aside.

[The Heretic of Time]

dreamgazer wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

I swear this board is going to turn my canon ending into Control.

How so?

Because Control is the coolest and most epic ending of them all and Crono is finally starting to see it.

Destroy is a pretty cliche, but still likable and perhaps the smartest choice.

Synthesis is stupid.

Refuse is just plain retarded.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 27 juin 2013 - 05:50 .

[Seboist]

Control is the best with headcanon/LARP. I like to imagine my God-Empress of Mankind Shepard using the Reapers to enforce human dominance and orders EDI into the nearest star with Joker inside.

Modifié par Seboist, 27 juin 2013 - 05:51 .

[The Heretic of Time]

Seboist wrote...

Control is the best with headcanon/LARP.

Control is the best even without headcanon/fanon, especially Renegade Control.

[Dextro Milk]

If Destroy was off the table, I would pick Control.

Synthesis is just... Yeah, we have a years worth of threads of reasons I dislike it.

[The Heretic of Time]

I dislike Synthesis for the same reason I dislike My Little Pony.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 27 juin 2013 - 05:59 .