465 réponses à ce sujet

[Dextro Milk]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

I dislike Synthesis for the same reason I dislike My Little Pony.

This hurts me... 

[AlanC9]

HYR 2.0 wrote...
I was speaking to the general concern everyone seems to have about Shepard randomly deciding to restart the cycles in Control. Or if we're going to argue whether or not it's really Shepard, why the "new Catalyst" would come around to concluding the cycles need to restart despite the late Shepard's whole life being dedicated to stopping it.

There's a non-crazy version of the argument. The danger isn't so much that the Sheplysts would restart the cycles, it's that it would exhibit some different kind of .... unexpected behavior, shall we say?

The hard part is reconciling this with the Stargazer scene. Try hard enough to come up with a negative interpretation and you can make it work, of course. Or rather, make it not work.

Modifié par AlanC9, 27 juin 2013 - 06:49 .

[Iakus]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

I highly doubt that the (wo)man whose only goal in life was saving the galaxy from total annihilation -- even when the act of resistance had no chance until the Crucible was discovered -- would suddenly come to a decision of "lol it's genocide time, galaxy!"

1) It's not that same person

2) It doesn't have to be "start up the cycles" again.  It could be anything taken to a logical extreme that "protects the many" or whatever.  We're talking about an immortal AI with no connection to organics, possibly glitchy hardware/software, and a lot of time on its hands to find "solutions".  Cold equations, man.  Cold equations.

[The Heretic of Time]

iakus wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

I highly doubt that the (wo)man whose only goal in life was saving the galaxy from total annihilation -- even when the act of resistance had no chance until the Crucible was discovered -- would suddenly come to a decision of "lol it's genocide time, galaxy!"

1) It's not that same person

2) It doesn't have to be "start up the cycles" again.  It could be anything taken to a logical extreme that "protects the many" or whatever.  We're talking about an immortal AI with no connection to organics, possibly glitchy hardware/software, and a lot of time on its hands to find "solutions".  Cold equations, man.  Cold equations.

1) It is the same person, but in a new form.

2) So I guess you're also scared that EDI might go bat-sh!t crazy one day? Seriously, the whole notion of "CataShep might go crazy one day!" doesn't make any sense and is based on absolutely nothing else than plain irrational fear.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

iakus wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

I highly doubt that the (wo)man whose only goal in life was saving the galaxy from total annihilation -- even when the act of resistance had no chance until the Crucible was discovered -- would suddenly come to a decision of "lol it's genocide time, galaxy!"

1) It's not that same person

2) It doesn't have to be "start up the cycles" again.  It could be anything taken to a logical extreme that "protects the many" or whatever.  We're talking about an immortal AI with no connection to organics, possibly glitchy hardware/software, and a lot of time on its hands to find "solutions".  Cold equations, man.  Cold equations.

2) So I guess you're also scared that EDI might go bat-sh!t crazy one day? Seriously, the whole notion of "CataShep might go crazy one day!" doesn't make any sense and is based on absolutely nothing else than plain irrational fear.

There's an awfully big gap between "Joker's sexbot" and "Immortal god-machine-emperor of the galaxy with its own fleet of killbots" in terms of potential destruction.

Random fellow: Did you hear? Joker's sexbot went crazy and started killing everyone!
Dude: It's a good thing God Emperor Shreaper is here to save us!
Random fellow: Oh yean uh... Shreaper went nuts and is grinding everyone up into space nutella.
Dude: Worst Tuesday ever.

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 27 juin 2013 - 02:00 .

[Iakus]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

iakus wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

I highly doubt that the (wo)man whose only goal in life was saving the galaxy from total annihilation -- even when the act of resistance had no chance until the Crucible was discovered -- would suddenly come to a decision of "lol it's genocide time, galaxy!"

1) It's not that same person

2) It doesn't have to be "start up the cycles" again.  It could be anything taken to a logical extreme that "protects the many" or whatever.  We're talking about an immortal AI with no connection to organics, possibly glitchy hardware/software, and a lot of time on its hands to find "solutions".  Cold equations, man.  Cold equations.

1) It is the same person, but in a new form.

2) So I guess you're also scared that EDI might go bat-sh!t crazy one day? Seriously, the whole notion of "CataShep might go crazy one day!" doesn't make any sense and is based on absolutely nothing else than plain irrational fear.

1) No, it isn't.  This "new form" has no connection to Shepard's humanity or to organics in general, save remembering that they exist.  IT has a completely different perspective from Shepard's The final speech makes this explicitly clear.

2) EDI going crazy is a definite possibility.  Heck look at what happened on Luna.  The thing is, She's not in command of a nigh-invincible armada of space-Cthulhus with mind control abilities and their legions of cyberzombies.

For that matter, I don't think I'd trust anyone, organic or synthetic, with that level of power.

[CronoDragoon]

When we say "same person" to what are we referring? It's clear that Shepard-AI has Shepard's memories. What else is there? Emotion? Why can't that be translated to code?

Undoubtedly Shepard-AI sees itself as a different entity than Shepard. It says so itself. The question is what practical difference this will make in its actions.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 27 juin 2013 - 02:46 .

[The Heretic of Time]

iakus wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

iakus wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

I highly doubt that the (wo)man whose only goal in life was saving the galaxy from total annihilation -- even when the act of resistance had no chance until the Crucible was discovered -- would suddenly come to a decision of "lol it's genocide time, galaxy!"

1) It's not that same person

2) It doesn't have to be "start up the cycles" again.  It could be anything taken to a logical extreme that "protects the many" or whatever.  We're talking about an immortal AI with no connection to organics, possibly glitchy hardware/software, and a lot of time on its hands to find "solutions".  Cold equations, man.  Cold equations.

1) It is the same person, but in a new form.

2) So I guess you're also scared that EDI might go bat-sh!t crazy one day? Seriously, the whole notion of "CataShep might go crazy one day!" doesn't make any sense and is based on absolutely nothing else than plain irrational fear.

1) No, it isn't.  This "new form" has no connection to Shepard's humanity or to organics in general, save remembering that they exist.  IT has a completely different perspective from Shepard's The final speech makes this explicitly clear.

2) EDI going crazy is a definite possibility.  Heck look at what happened on Luna.  The thing is, She's not in command of a nigh-invincible armada of space-Cthulhus with mind control abilities and their legions of cyberzombies.

For that matter, I don't think I'd trust anyone, organic or synthetic, with that level of power.

1) False. CataShep is everything human Shep was and more. CataShep also clearly refers to human Shep as "the man I was...". Indeed, the man - I - was. CataShep clearly indentifies himself with his former human self. Saying that CataShep is not Shepard is nothing less untrue than saying that baby on one of my baby pictures is not me.

2) What happened to EDI on Luna was before she became EDI. She didn't go crazy either, she simply "woke up" and got scared like a young animal or little child can be.

[KaiserShep]

Heck, in Shepard's place, if Control was my *only* option, I'd just rebuild the relays and then throw myself and every other reaper in existence into the nearest star, because immortality is a curse born out of fantasy that's best avoided, and there should never be an overlord that possesses that much power.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 27 juin 2013 - 02:53 .

[Kel Riever]

lol, I don't think this thread is exactly going the way the OP thought it would.

Paragon Shep unplugs the computer before Glowjob appears! Saves money on any future BioWare products!

See, (s)he really IS a good guy after all! A true galactic champion.

[Iakus]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...


1) False. CataShep is everything human Shep was and more. CataShep also clearly refers to human Shep as "the man I was...". Indeed, the man - I - was. CataShep clearly indentifies himself with his former human self. Saying that CataShep is not Shepard is nothing less untrue than saying that baby on one of my baby pictures is not me.

"You will die.  You will control us, but you will lose everything you have"

I don't think the Catalyst was referring to SHepard's N7 dogtags.

Plus other stuff about no longer identifying with organics

2) What happened to EDI on Luna was before she became EDI. She didn't go crazy either, she simply "woke up" and got scared like a young animal or little child can be.

So we have established that under certain circumstancs, EDI is capable of acting irrationally and lashing out, just like anyone else.  Thank you.

[Kel Riever]

I'm just going to say one more time, I don't know what you are all talking about that the Geth and EDI die in Destroy when they obviously live, simply according to how code works in FOR REAL LIFE.

Bad writing is acceptable? Fine, let's go ahead and go there then!

[Iakus]

CronoDragoon wrote...

When we say "same person" to what are we referring? It's clear that Shepard-AI has Shepard's memories. What else is there? Emotion? Why can't that be translated to code?

Undoubtedly Shepard-AI sees itself as a different entity than Shepard. It says so itself. The question is what practical difference this will make in its actions.

Context.  Morality.  Connection to friends and loved ones.  Perspective.  The Shepalyst doesn't share any of this with the organic Shepard.  The Catalyst warned this would happen.  What we have is essentially an AI who read Shepard's diary and is now masquerading as him/her

[CronoDragoon]

Why can't morality, context, and perspective be converted into code? The Catalyst did say that Shepard would lose his "connection" to his race, but what does that really mean? There are different ways to interpret that.

[jtav]

Shepard dies as a human. Everything that matters is preserved. You can't give me EDI's arc and expect me to treat Shepalyst as a lunatic sociopath. Shepalyst is Shepard in much the same way CHARNAME is still CHARNAME even if he becomes a god.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Why can't morality, context, and perspective be converted into code? The Catalyst did say that Shepard would lose his "connection" to his race, but what does that really mean? There are different ways to interpret that.

If that were the case, don't you think that the Catalyst could be programmed as such, thus making his entire solution irrelevant?

I don't think his perspective, context, and morality (Shepard's) will remain intact in Control. I really don't. I believe that there is some kind of fundamental change to his perspective, the very way he thinks, when he transfers into a purely synthetic being.

[Dextro Milk]

The wording Shepard uses in Control ending is very unsettling to me. It's no longer Shepard, just a shell of his former self.

There are some things you can't just "copy and paste" imo. Emotion, feeling, your connection, is lost. If you want to headcanon Shepard takes control of a robot body to make love to his/her LI, I won't stop you from deranging yourself.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

jtav wrote...

Shepard dies as a human. Everything that matters is preserved. You can't give me EDI's arc and expect me to treat Shepalyst as a lunatic sociopath. Shepalyst is Shepard in much the same way CHARNAME is still CHARNAME even if he becomes a god.

I disagree.

This is my interpretation:

Shepard dies as a human, and with it, everything human about him. His thoughts continue, and he keeps his memories, but his perspective is fundamentally altered due to the nature of his new existence. For all intents and purposes, he becomes very sociopathic and unempathetic due to the new constraints of his new perspective.

He may continue thinking, but the way he thinks has been forever altered. I interpret that as a bad thing, since his perspective has changed and he may possibly decide to adopt his predecessor's method's or something even more untoward.

To reiterate though, this is my interpretation.

[The Heretic of Time]

iakus wrote...

"You will die.  You will control us, but you will lose everything you have"

How can you control the reapers if you're dead? I tell you how, because CataShep is Shepard reborn.

Plus other stuff about no longer identifying with organics

What stuff?

So we have established that under certain circumstancs, EDI is capable of acting irrationally and lashing out, just like anyone else.  Thank you.

No, we just established that the VI on Luna was not EDI.

But you're right, any thinking creature, whether organic or synthethic, is capable of making bad and/or irrational decisions. It's just that the more intelligent you are and the more experience you have, the less likely it is for you to make such irrational and bad decisions.

CataShep probably is very intelligent and he's immortal so he'll have plenty of time to gather experience and learn more about the galaxy, it's inhabitants and himself.

Having all the thoughts, memories, emotions and moral values of human Shepard is only the beginning of CataShep. Imagine how much more he can become with enough time on his hands (and he has plenty). CataShep has the potential to become like a god.


"If there is no God, It would be necessary to invent him." - Voltaire

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 27 juin 2013 - 03:14 .

[The Heretic of Time]

Dextro Milk wrote...

The wording Shepard uses in Control ending is very unsettling to me. It's no longer Shepard, just a shell of his former self.

That's not the way I see it. The way I see it, CataShep is everything Shepard was, and more, MUCH more.

CataShep is not Shepard minus a lot of things. CataShep is Shepard plus a lot of things, if you understand what I mean.


It's quite like the Helios ending of Deus Ex 1, where JC Denton merges with Helios to become something more. That's what happens to Shepard in the Control ending.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 27 juin 2013 - 03:16 .

[CronoDragoon]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

If that were the case, don't you think that the Catalyst could be programmed as such, thus making his entire solution irrelevant?

Maybe he was? If the Catalyst's programming was a result of an uploaded organic mind, it would have been a Leviathan. If it was a Leviathan, then it's easy to see why things went wrong.

We've been told nothing about the Catalyst being based on an organic mind, though. So if it wasn't, then the comparison isn't relevant because Shepard being "translated" into a synthetic is completely different than Leviathans trying to build an AI's programming from the ground up.

Of course, that it's a different method might mean new sorts of issues will arise with the programming.

[KaiserShep]

If I subtracted my humanity and the connections I have, I would no longer consider myself intact, and would essentially be dead. No dice.

[Dextro Milk]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Dextro Milk wrote...

The wording Shepard uses in Control ending is very unsettling to me. It's no longer Shepard, just a shell of his former self.

That's not the way I see it. The way I see it, CataShep is everything Shepard was, and more, MUCH more.

I thought it should go without saying...

Every ending is open for different views and all that.

That is how I see control. You can't prove me wrong anymore than I can disprove you.

[The Heretic of Time]

Dextro Milk wrote...

That is how I see control. You can't prove me wrong anymore than I can disprove you.

That's true, very true. It's all open for intepretation.

I just find the whole idea of CataShep going crazy and restaring the reaper war (for whatever reason) kinda far-fetched. I see no reason to believe he would go crazy, there is absolutely nothing in the epilogue suggesting that CataShep will go crazy. The whole idea of CataShep going nuts is purely based on speculation, headcanon and irrational fear.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 27 juin 2013 - 03:22 .

[AresKeith]

None of the endings are Paragon or Renegade