465 réponses à ce sujet

[111987]

Kel Riever wrote...

I'm just going to say one more time, I don't know what you are all talking about that the Geth and EDI die in Destroy when they obviously live, simply according to how code works in FOR REAL LIFE.

Bad writing is acceptable? Fine, let's go ahead and go there then!

You are in denial, and you are wrong.

[CronoDragoon]

Speculation, headcanon, and fear, yes. Irrational, no.

[The Heretic of Time]

AresKeith wrote...

None of the endings are Paragon or Renegade

True, but one could argue that some of the endings are more in line with the Paragon philosophy, while some of the endings are more in line with the Renegade philosophy.

Paragons for example, do not sacrifice allies unnecessarily. If there is another way that doesn't require such sacrifices, the Paragon will find that other way and choose that. A Renegade however doesn't care much about casualties. The Renegade wants to get the job done quickly and efficiently, no matter what the cost.

[Kel Riever]

111987 wrote...

Kel Riever wrote...

I'm just going to say one more time, I don't know what you are all talking about that the Geth and EDI die in Destroy when they obviously live, simply according to how code works in FOR REAL LIFE.

Bad writing is acceptable? Fine, let's go ahead and go there then!

You are in denial, and you are wrong.

Denial would be arguing how life works.  So, I'd say the statement applies to you more than me.

You don't believe in ISPs or urls do you?  They aren't real to you, are they?  And in the future, we would never use anything that would work like them would we?  Because that would be useless.

Anyway, get back to me when you find out how it is that you can have billing actually occur from your internet service provider.  They clearly can't single you out, can they, from the other ISP customers they serve?  So if you stop paying your bill, they'll never notice, right?  They couldn't turn off your service without turning off everyone else's, right?

Denial, indeed.

Modifié par Kel Riever, 27 juin 2013 - 03:29 .

[Dextro Milk]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Dextro Milk wrote...

That is how I see control. You can't prove me wrong anymore than I can disprove you.

That's true, very true. It's all open for intepretation.

I just find the whole idea of CataShep going crazy and restaring the reaper war (for whatever reason) kinda far-fetched. I see no reason to believe he would go crazy, there is absolutely nothing in the epilogue suggesting that CataShep will go crazy. The whole idea of CataShep going nuts is purely based on speculation, headcanon and irrational fear.

I... I uh, I didn't say he would. I simply said he would not be the same "entity". He would not be able to "love" his LI if he had one.

I just think it is too risky to put the galaxy in trust of another AI...

[shep82]

Bill Casey wrote...

Refuse or MEHEM...
Those are the paragon endings...

Not for my Sheps. Refuse is good but I would never make it my cannon ending and MEHEM is a joke.

[AresKeith]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

None of the endings are Paragon or Renegade

True, but one could argue that some of the endings are more in line with the Paragon philosophy, while some of the endings are more in line with the Renegade philosophy.

Paragons for example, do not sacrifice allies unnecessarily. If there is another way that doesn't require such sacrifices, the Paragon will find that other way and choose that. A Renegade however doesn't care much about casualties. The Renegade wants to get the job done quickly and efficiently, no matter what the cost.

True, but sometimes a Renegade could do something for personal gain (power) like the Renegade version of Control

[The Heretic of Time]

Kel Riever you clearly have no clue how Destroy works and WHY it actually targets ALL synthetic life rather than just the Reapers.

Mind you, that none of us has a clue how Destroy really works, but we can't deny the facts however, and the fact is that Destroy targets ALL synthetic life, which means bye bye EDI and bye bye geth.

Sorry, but denying that FACT is just dumb.

[111987]

Kel Riever wrote...

111987 wrote...

Kel Riever wrote...

I'm just going to say one more time, I don't know what you are all talking about that the Geth and EDI die in Destroy when they obviously live, simply according to how code works in FOR REAL LIFE.

Bad writing is acceptable? Fine, let's go ahead and go there then!

You are in denial, and you are wrong.

Denial would be arguing how life works.  So, I'd say the statement applies to you more than me.

You don't believe in ISPs or urls do you?  They aren't real to you, are they?  And in the future, we would never use anything that would work like them would we?  Because that would be useless.

Anyway, get back to me when you find out how it is that you can have billing actually occur from your internet service provider.  They clearly can't single you out, can they, from the other ISP customers they serve?  So if you stop paying your bill, they'll never notice, right?  They couldn't turn off your service without turning off everyone else's, right?

Denial, indeed.

Lol I knew you were just waiting to pounce.

We don't know the specifics of how the Destroy wave works. Nor do we know the specifics of Geth and Reaper coding. Nor does it matter. The Catalyst says they will die, so they will die. The epilogue then confirms this.

That's all the proof I need. Things work differently in the ME universe (like DNA). Call it bad writing, but what happened, happened.

[CronoDragoon]

Kel Riever wrote...
  They couldn't turn off your service without turning off everyone else's, right?

Key word: couldn't.

The Catalyst doesn't say the Crucible cannot discriminate. It says it WILL not discriminate. Ie, Destroy's original intent is to destroy all synthetics.

[Kel Riever]

@111987:

But all the proof I need is in Mass Effect 3 too!

The Geth live because headcannon

So does EDI

You are just being unimaginative.

That's what happened. Call it bad writing, but what happened happened.

I don't know why you are being so negative and unimaginative. You must not be a fan.

Modifié par Kel Riever, 27 juin 2013 - 03:38 .

[The Heretic of Time]

Dextro Milk wrote...

He would not be able to "love" his LI if he had one.

And how do you know that? There is nothing in the Control epilogue suggesting anything of the sorts.

In fact, the Control epilogue HEAVILY suggests the completely OPPOSITE, that Shepard still cares and loves his former crew members, despite his current form as the new Catalyst.

I just think it is too risky to put the galaxy in trust of another AI...

The reason why AI are dangerous is because they're like children with no clue or context when it comes to traits that are unique to organics, such as emotions, feelings and morality. CataShep is different, because he's has all the memories, feelings and moral values of human Shepard.

Whether you want to acknowledge that CataShep = Shepard is irrelevant, you can't deny that CataShep is based on human Shepard and has the same moral values as human Shepard, as is evident by the 2 different Control epilogues (one for Paragon Shepard and another for Renegade Shepard).

[masster blaster]

Refuse if faced with Control, reason being is because Control is just Shepard becoming the very monster he/she was trying to destroy. It may take awhile but in the end Control Shepard will fall into the cata;yst's own self again. Logic dictates Shepard now, and not emotions. The emotions what made Shepard have a

[Dextro Milk]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

*Sigh*

I already said, this is all opinion. I don't believe machines, AI, can feel actual emotion, in the game, or in real life.

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

It depends on what interpretation of Paragon you use. If you consider a Paragon as someone who forms a set of principles and then refuses to compromise those values, Refuse would be your best bet. If you consider a Paragon as someone who painstakingly avoids ending lives when there are alternatives (gameplay-story segregation in mind), shoot for Control.

[The Heretic of Time]

masster blaster wrote...

It may take awhile but in the end Control Shepard will fall into the catalyst's own self again.

Your headcanon is irrelevant. Nothing in the Control epilogue suggests anything of the sorts.

Logic dictates Shepard now, and not emotions.

False. The Control epilogue shows the exact opposite is true.

[masster blaster]

Dextro Milk wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

*Sigh*

I already said, this is all opinion. I don't believe machines, AI, can feel actual emotion, in the game, or in real life.

They don't feel emotion, but try to experience it. Legion tries to, as does EDI,  yet they don't "feel:" the emotion.

[The Heretic of Time]

Dextro Milk wrote...

I don't believe machines, AI, can feel actual emotion, in the game, or in real life.

Neither do I, but at least I don't deny that BioWare tries to imply that in their games and in their universe, an AI can feel emotions (or at least some AIs seem to be capable of experiencing emotions, such as EDI, Legion and CataShep).

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 27 juin 2013 - 03:46 .

[AlanC9]

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

It depends on what interpretation of Paragon you use. If you consider a Paragon as someone who forms a set of principles and then refuses to compromise those values, Refuse would be your best bet. If you consider a Paragon as someone who painstakingly avoids ending lives when there are alternatives (gameplay-story segregation in mind), shoot for Control.

This is a good way to approach it. The Paragon concept, in practice, has always been a bit ambiguous; the manual suggests the first definition, but actual gameplay tends to the second definition.

[Dextro Milk]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Dextro Milk wrote...

I don't believe machines, AI, can feel actual emotion, in the game, or in real life.

Neither do I, but at least I don't deny that BioWare tries to imply that in their games and in their universe, an AI can feel emotions.

What?

Of course I believe BioWare pushes that, and heavily implies it. But the funny thing is, you can't prove or disprove emotion, in-game, or irl. Emotions can be faked, mimicked, and I can easily imagine reasons why Legion, EDI, and them think they "feel" anything.

[masster blaster]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

It may take awhile but in the end Control Shepard will fall into the catalyst's own self again.

Your headcanon is irrelevant. Nothing in the Control epilogue suggests anything of the sorts.

Logic dictates Shepard now, and not emotions.

False. The Control epilogue shows the exact opposite is true.

And here we go again. I am giving my opinion, and from what I see it does. For renegade Shepard in Control Shepard is starting to already declare marshal law. Galaxy's free will is gone, and Shepard rules the galaxy with an iron fist. For paragon Shepard, Shepard is using the Reapers as galactic police force. The problem is if you listen to Shepard it cares for his/her squad mates. What's going to happen when they all die? Shepard imo will gone on a rampage if he/she has nothing to hold onto.

[The Heretic of Time]

masster blaster wrote...

And here we go again. I am giving my opinion, and from what I see it does. For renegade Shepard in Control Shepard is starting to already declare marshal law. Galaxy's free will is gone, and Shepard rules the galaxy with an iron fist. For paragon Shepard, Shepard is using the Reapers as galactic police force. The problem is if you listen to Shepard it cares for his/her squad mates. What's going to happen when they all die?

Shepard imo will go on a rampage if he/she has nothing to hold onto.

Newsflash: There are more things that Shepard cares about than just his crew, especially if you play Parago Shepard. To assume that CataShep would go on a rampage once his crew is dead is completely far-fetched and doesn't make any sense.

[Enhanced]

Dextro Milk wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Dextro Milk wrote...

I don't believe machines, AI, can feel actual emotion, in the game, or in real life.

Neither do I, but at least I don't deny that BioWare tries to imply that in their games and in their universe, an AI can feel emotions.

What?

Of course I believe BioWare pushes that, and heavily implies it. But the funny thing is, you can't prove or disprove emotion, in-game, or irl. Emotions can be faked, mimicked, and I can easily imagine reasons why Legion, EDI, and them think they "feel" anything.

But, ControlShep is not just a machine or A.I.  People saying that Shepard won't be Shepard after Control must have not gone through all of the dialogue options. The Catalyst specifically says that Shepard's organic form will be lost, but thoughts and memories will continue.

[Iakus]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

iakus wrote...

"You will die.  You will control us, but you will lose everything you have"

How can you control the reapers if you're dead? I tell you how, because CataShep is Shepard reborn.

Shepard can ask that very question.  And the Catalyst's answer is very unsettling to me.  Shepard is not "reborn"  The Shpalyst is born with Shepard's death.  They are separate beings with the same memories.

What stuff?

Pretty much everything the Catalyst says in his ecplanation how Shepard can control the Reapers while dead.

No, we just established that the VI on Luna was not EDI.

The files at Kronos Base say differently.

But you're right, any thinking creature, whether organic or synthethic, is capable of making bad and/or irrational decisions. It's just that the more intelligent you are and the more experience you have, the less likely it is for you to make such irrational and bad decisions.

CataShep probably is very intelligent and he's immortal so he'll have plenty of time to gather experience and learn more about the galaxy, it's inhabitants and himself.

The Catalyst had millions of years to gather experience and learn more about the galaxy.  It didn't help.

Having all the thoughts, memories, emotions and moral values of human Shepard is only the beginning of CataShep. Imagine how much more he can become with enough time on his hands (and he has plenty). CataShep has the potential to become like a god.

Except aside from thoughts and memories, the Shepalyst doesn't share any of this with Shepard.

"If there is no God, It would be necessary to invent him." - Voltaire

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity." - Albert Einstein

Modifié par iakus, 27 juin 2013 - 03:53 .

[Dextro Milk]

Enhanced wrote...

The Catalyst specifically says that Shepard's organic form will be lost, but thoughts and memories will continue.

Thoughts and memories =/= Emotion

They are not the same.