465 réponses à ce sujet

[CronoDragoon]

But emotions are chemical reactions to a specific combination of electrical signals. This doesn't have a synthetic equivalent?

[The Heretic of Time]

iakus wrote...

Shepard is not "reborn"  The Shpalyst is born with Shepard's death.  They are separate beings with the same memories.

Not just the same memories, also the same moral values and same behavior.

What defines you as a person? Is it your body of flesh and blood? Or is it your memories, moral values and behavior that defines who you are?

Think about that for a moment, and realize how wrong you are to think CataShep and humanShep are seperate beings.

[Dextro Milk]

CronoDragoon wrote...

But emotions are chemical reactions to a specific combination of electrical signals. This doesn't have a synthetic equivalent?

Let me put it this way, when you make a 1:1 brain out of all synthetic parts, and are able to successfully recreate emotions, call me.

Until then, I need to see it to believe it. The synthetics in Mass Effect were not designed to have emotion, because both major AI's we know about were created accidentally. Well, EDI I'm not entirely sure, but the quarians did not create the geth "brain" to feel emotion, nor replicate it.

[masster blaster]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

And here we go again. I am giving my opinion, and from what I see it does. For renegade Shepard in Control Shepard is starting to already declare marshal law. Galaxy's free will is gone, and Shepard rules the galaxy with an iron fist. For paragon Shepard, Shepard is using the Reapers as galactic police force. The problem is if you listen to Shepard it cares for his/her squad mates. What's going to happen when they all die?

Shepard imo will go on a rampage if he/she has nothing to hold onto.

Newsflash: There are more things that Shepard cares about than just his crew, especially if you play Parago Shepard. To assume that CataShep would go on a rampage once his crew is dead is completely far-fetched and doesn't make any sense.

It does. That's not Shepard any more. Shepard is dead. This is a copy of Shepard. A figure created from Shepard's mind, and that the player has no control over. And it comes mainly down to the crew. Shepard doesn't call an evac for the Alliance soldiers getting killed, but when the two squad mates get hurt he/she goes crazy to get them out of there. They are main thing that Shepard cares about above all.

[Kel Riever]

The good news to all of this is I don't really need a reason for anything anymore and it is totally acceptable in BioWare world. 

So the lesson of Mass Effect 3s ending is narcisim works.  And as long as a person can justify anything in their head, then it needs no explanation in game.

So Shepard is an Elcor

The Alliance is controlled by the Reapers

Nobody has eyes.
All now true in Mass Effect, because I am imaginative and positive!

Modifié par Kel Riever, 27 juin 2013 - 04:06 .

[masster blaster]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

iakus wrote...

Shepard is not "reborn"  The Shpalyst is born with Shepard's death.  They are separate beings with the same memories.

Not just the same memories, also the same moral values and same behavior.

What defines you as a person? Is it your body of flesh and blood? Or is it your memories, moral values and behavior that defines who you are?

Think about that for a moment, and realize how wrong you are to think CataShep and humanShep are seperate beings.

Debatable. No Hanar, but what makes you think THIS Shepard can not change? Hello it's using freaking logic. Look at what happened to the catalyst!  It had good intentions from it's point of view, but in the end it was just plan wrong, and unnecessary. Remember Saren... " We organics believe in emotions instead of using logic" For good reasons. Acting on emotions is what gives us a moral compass....without that emotion Shepard is not who he/she was, and it means Shepard is using logic, rather than emotions.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

iakus wrote...

Shepard is not "reborn"  The Shpalyst is born with Shepard's death.  They are separate beings with the same memories.

Not just the same memories, also the same moral values and same behavior.

What defines you as a person? Is it your body of flesh and blood? Or is it your memories, moral values and behavior that defines who you are?

Think about that for a moment, and realize how wrong you are to think CataShep and humanShep are seperate beings.

Where do your morals, memories, and values come from? Your behavior? Are they part of some intrinsic soul that exists in each of us? If you believe that, then your answer is clear. Choose control (or don't).

For me, all of those are organic. Consciousness is organic. So deep, yet so shallow. Chemical reactions in your head create the basis for everything in existence to us. Everything we can percieve. It is your flesh and blood that define you. At least, that's what I believe.

I thought about that as you asked and I've come to the conclusion that they are two completely separate beings with possibly incompatible perspectives and fundamental differences that might warrant a terrible change.

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

Kel Riever wrote...

The good news to all of this is I don't really need a reason for anything anymore and it is totally acceptable in BioWare world. 

So the lesson of Mass Effect 3s ending is narcisim works.  And as long as a person can justify anything in their head, then it needs no explanation in game.

So Shepard is an Elcor

The Alliance is controlled by the Reapers

Nobody has eyes.
All now true in Mass Effect, because I am imaginative and positive!

What are you even getting at at this point?

[Enhanced]

Dextro Milk wrote...

Enhanced wrote...

The Catalyst specifically says that Shepard's organic form will be lost, but thoughts and memories will continue.

Thoughts and memories =/= Emotion

They are not the same.

Is there any proof  of that?

Modifié par Enhanced, 27 juin 2013 - 04:11 .

[Dextro Milk]

Enhanced wrote...

Dextro Milk wrote...

Enhanced wrote...

The Catalyst specifically says that Shepard's organic form will be lost, but thoughts and memories will continue.

Thoughts and memories =/= Emotion

They are not the same.

Is there any proof that?

What? LOL

That is a fact. Thoughts, are not emotion. Memories, are not emotion. Emotion is emotion.

You can have memory or thoughts without feeling something for them, fyi. 

[Kel Riever]

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

Kel Riever wrote...

The good news to all of this is I don't really need a reason for anything anymore and it is totally acceptable in BioWare world. 

So the lesson of Mass Effect 3s ending is narcisim works.  And as long as a person can justify anything in their head, then it needs no explanation in game.

So Shepard is an Elcor

The Alliance is controlled by the Reapers

Nobody has eyes.
All now true in Mass Effect, because I am imaginative and positive!

What are you even getting at at this point?

That if we are just going to headcannon over the gaps where BioWare literally refutes how basic things work in real life, like breathing and how code works, then we can just headcannon anything at all.

Its like a dream! Oh, so smashingly brilliant!

Modifié par Kel Riever, 27 juin 2013 - 04:13 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Enhanced wrote...

Dextro Milk wrote...

Enhanced wrote...

The Catalyst specifically says that Shepard's organic form will be lost, but thoughts and memories will continue.

Thoughts and memories =/= Emotion

They are not the same.

Is there any proof  of that?

Define both. Scientifically. You can use a religious explanation if you are religious, or a spiritual one if you desire.

But emotions are chemicals. Really, it all boils down to that. Different chemicals produce different emotions.

[SeptimusMagistos]

Seriously, the apparent distrust of synthetics on this site is staggering. One of the reasons I choose Control is that I don't think synthetics need to be changed to coexist with organics. They're fine just the way they are and the best way for Shepard to illustrate that is to become one of them.

The whole 'Shepard is an AI, therefore galaxy-wide rampage' thing is frankly sad.

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

Kel Riever wrote...

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

Kel Riever wrote...

The good news to all of this is I don't really need a reason for anything anymore and it is totally acceptable in BioWare world. 

So the lesson of Mass Effect 3s ending is narcisim works.  And as long as a person can justify anything in their head, then it needs no explanation in game.

So Shepard is an Elcor

The Alliance is controlled by the Reapers

Nobody has eyes.
All now true in Mass Effect, because I am imaginative and positive!

What are you even getting at at this point?

That if we are just going to headcannon over the gaps where BioWare literally refutes how basic things work in real life, like breathing and how code works, then we can just headcannon anything at all.

Its like a dream! Oh, so smashingly brilliant!

Creative license exists for a raisin. It's to be expected that soft sci-fi doesn't contain much valid science, because it often gets in the way of presentation. Besides, AI code is likely far more complex than out current code and probably doesn't even work the same way. You're being far too cynical.

[jtav]

@ Kal

No. because the ME verse works on different rules. For example, mass effect itself. So the Crucible targets all synthetics because that's what the story says it does. A writer is allowed such things.

Modifié par jtav, 27 juin 2013 - 04:18 .

[111987]

Kel Riever wrote...

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

Kel Riever wrote...

The good news to all of this is I don't really need a reason for anything anymore and it is totally acceptable in BioWare world. 

So the lesson of Mass Effect 3s ending is narcisim works.  And as long as a person can justify anything in their head, then it needs no explanation in game.

So Shepard is an Elcor

The Alliance is controlled by the Reapers

Nobody has eyes.
All now true in Mass Effect, because I am imaginative and positive!

What are you even getting at at this point?

That if we are just going to headcannon over the gaps where BioWare literally refutes how basic things work in real life, like breathing and how code works, then we can just headcannon anything at all.

Its like a dream! Oh, so smashingly brilliant!

You make no sense.

Synthetics dying as a result of Destroy isn't headcanon. It's what is stated and shown to have happened, ingame.

I'm not sure you understand what headcanon is...

[Kel Riever]

No, no, I understand everything.

The Mass Effect universe works differently than the normal universe, with no explanation needed.

Did you know in my game of Mass Effect, I played Kai Leng?! No explanation needed!  I am speculating and imaginative.

Modifié par Kel Riever, 27 juin 2013 - 04:23 .

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

Kel Riever wrote...

No, no, I understand everything.

The Mass Effect universe works differently than the normal universe, with no explanation needed.

Did you know in my game of Mass Effect, I played Kai Leng?! No explanation needed!  I am speculating and imaginative.

Bah, derail someone else's thread.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Seriously, the apparent distrust of synthetics on this site is staggering. One of the reasons I choose Control is that I don't think synthetics need to be changed to coexist with organics. They're fine just the way they are and the best way for Shepard to illustrate that is to become one of them.

The whole 'Shepard is an AI, therefore galaxy-wide rampage' thing is frankly sad.

I choose destroy for the same reason you choose control. I choose it though because I don't believe we can coexist with the Reapers. I do plan on changing opinions and minds on synthetics if I can, though I also don't believe they need to exist. Like it or not, simply not making synthetics solves the problem. The way the Catalyst defines how synthetics exist doesn't stack up. 

The Catalyst uses multiple definitions for synthetic when it explains the endings. Going along with how far fetched the execution of each ending is as well as the current solution and problem, my Shepard quickly concludes that the Catalyst is a heavily flawed construct built and biased to the perspective of the Leviathans, even if it does differ from them itself.

That said, each synthetic race might be different from the next synthetic race. I believe that peace is possible for organics and synthetics. I don't believe that this is possible with every circumstance however. I use the Reapers and the Catalyst as an example. 

I believe that the Shepard AI, based on a Reaper/Catalyst/Leviathan technological construct, will eventually go on a galaxy wide rampage, due to the nature of a percieved fundamental incompatibility between organics and Reaper synthetics.

[Kel Riever]

No, it is on topic. Because the issue here is if Control or Synthesis is Paragon, and if you follow my point, since you can make up anything, it is just a troll thread!

See, Control is Paragon, Destroy is Paragon, Synthesis is Paragon, Refuse is Paragon, and even the Renegade choices and interrupts are Paragon. Because no explanation needed!

On a side note, Mass Effect characters bleed but they are made of playdough.  That's why Shepard can be rebuilt after ME2, why Medigel works, and why Shep MIGHT die after inhaling.  Because its just playdough.

Modifié par Kel Riever, 27 juin 2013 - 04:29 .

[Iakus]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Seriously, the apparent distrust of synthetics on this site is staggering. One of the reasons I choose Control is that I don't think synthetics need to be changed to coexist with organics. They're fine just the way they are and the best way for Shepard to illustrate that is to become one of them.

The whole 'Shepard is an AI, a Reaper therefore galaxy-wide rampage' thing is frankly sad.

Fixed.

I think organics and synthetics can coexist as well.  But it's wrong for one to rule over the other.  And it's especially wrong for one individual to rule over all.  Thus my ending is MEHEM, where the Reapers are destroyed, and organics and synthetics can live side by side as equals.

[Enhanced]

Dextro Milk wrote...

Enhanced wrote...

Dextro Milk wrote...

Enhanced wrote...

The Catalyst specifically says that Shepard's organic form will be lost, but thoughts and memories will continue.

Thoughts and memories =/= Emotion

They are not the same.

Is there any proof that?

What? LOL

That is a fact. Thoughts, are not emotion. Memories, are not emotion. Emotion is emotion.

You can have memory or thoughts without feeling something for them, fyi. 

It's a theory. Not fact. But, I'm mainly talking about in the game.

Modifié par Enhanced, 27 juin 2013 - 04:40 .

[essarr71]

Right. Remember when Legion showed us all those geth emotions inside the server? He was really broken up about it.

[masster blaster]

essarr71 wrote...

Right. Remember when Legion showed us all those geth emotions inside the server? He was really broken up about it.

........those were the Reaper upgrades to the AI core.......not emotions...... If the Reapers do have emotions, then Harbinger.............ya...........one reason not to pick Control.

Modifié par masster blaster, 27 juin 2013 - 04:46 .

[The Heretic of Time]

masster blaster wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

iakus wrote...

Shepard is not "reborn"  The Shpalyst is born with Shepard's death.  They are separate beings with the same memories.

Not just the same memories, also the same moral values and same behavior.

What defines you as a person? Is it your body of flesh and blood? Or is it your memories, moral values and behavior that defines who you are?

Think about that for a moment, and realize how wrong you are to think CataShep and humanShep are seperate beings.

Debatable.

No not debatable, that's a FACT as his clearly shown in the distinction between the Paragon Control epilogue and the Renegade Control epilogue. The monologue in the Control epilogue is quite different depending on your Shepard's morality (e.g. Paragon or Renegade).

No Hanar, but what makes you think THIS Shepard can not change? Hello it's using freaking logic. Look at what happened to the catalyst!  It had good intentions from it's point of view, but in the end it was just plan wrong, and unnecessary. Remember Saren... " We organics believe in emotions instead of using logic" For good reasons. Acting on emotions is what gives us a moral compass....without that emotion Shepard is not who he/she was, and it means Shepard is using logic, rather than emotions.

But CataShep does have a moral compass, which is the primary difference between CataShep and the previous Catalyst.

Another big difference between CataShep and the previous Catalyst is context. The Catalyst clearly had no proper understanding of how organics work. He lacked first-hand experience and proper context to understand things like emotions and morality, which resulted in his poor judgement. CataShep does have first-hand experience and a proper understanding of emotions and morality, since he inherited those from his former human self.


Also; funny how you mention Saren, who's actions were 100% based on his pride and very strong emotions towards humanity. The sweet irony. 

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 27 juin 2013 - 04:58 .