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#251
DirtySHISN0

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Necanor wrote...

You totally took this sentence out of context. The word can't isn't used to judge Shepard's ability, but rather as an appeal to his morality. She basically says: Shepard, you can't just commit genocide on an entire race of over 17 million civilians. Tali emphasises can't, because she can't fathom the thought, that Shepard would just eradicate a whole species, her species. 


Taking things out of context is what i do best.

There is no moral difference in killing either group in my opinion. Which makes it all the easier to see that Tali assumed it was perfectly acceptable (and probable) that shepard get rid of the geth. She later admits to this if you choose peace.

Modifié par DirtySHISN0, 18 juin 2013 - 07:16 .


#252
themikefest

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"You're going to need more than guns to finish them Shepard"---T'Soni
"Can't just shoot them"--T'Soni

both lines occur while shooting the Cerberus troopers after meeting T'soni

#253
MassivelyEffective0730

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Necanor wrote...

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

Allow me to elaborate with a series of retorts appropriate to my original quoted line.

"Oh really?"
"Challenge accepted"
"Yes Tali. Yes i can"


I don't care who is saying it, rather how it is phrased. I can choose to destroy the quarians if i so wish. ( which usually i do, but lets not go into that)


You totally took this sentence out of context. The word can't isn't used to judge Shepard's ability, but rather as an appeal to his morality. She basically says: Shepard, you can't just commit genocide on an entire race of over 17 million civilians. Tali emphasises can't, because she can't fathom the thought, that Shepard would just eradicate a whole species, her species. 


Well, that's her problem then. If I can't make peace, the Quarians are history. I know what I'm doing and why I'm doing it. If Tali doesn't like, that's her problem. 

In a struggle for existence and survival, such as the Reaper War, morality and ethics don't have the same meaning or clout as they did previously. 

From my point of view, the Quarians (and Tali) are actively working to hamper my overall effort against the Reapers by targeting the now friendly Geth and wasting their own forces against them. I'm not going to tolerate that.

#254
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DirtySHISN0 wrote...

Necanor wrote...

You totally took this sentence out of context. The word can't isn't used to judge Shepard's ability, but rather as an appeal to his morality. She basically says: Shepard, you can't just commit genocide on an entire race of over 17 million civilians. Tali emphasises can't, because she can't fathom the thought, that Shepard would just eradicate a whole species, her species. 


Taking things out of context is what i do best.

There is no moral difference in killing either group in my opinion. Which makes it all the easier to see that Tali assumed it was perfectly acceptable (and probable) that shepard get rid of the geth. She later admits to this if you choose peace.

As opposed to the rest of the crew, who are all shocked and appalled if Shepard chooses to lets the geth die?

#255
Bleachrude

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Tonymac wrote...

Sounds like a plot hole by our fearless lead writer - cluelessly fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding....


How is that a plothole?

In ME2, it is stated that the human reaper would then be placed inside the "reaper" shell...Not sure how this is a plothole...

#256
Cainhurst Crow

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Maxster_ wrote...


Enough?



Not really, since a lot of what you posted was bloated and unrelated, like your first quote on space combat. 

You also seem to work on the assumption that modern firearm slugs do not squash, smash, and deform upon impact. They do in fact do this, and it can make extracting a bullet that much more difficult, espically if small slivers of it break up inside the body, and we already have bullets designed to shatter upon impact, they're called hollowpoint rounds. 

Also ignoring that just because a weapon of high kinetic energy would generate heat upon impact, it would match the duration or temperature of a thanix round, and that the two are interchangable in some way with one another, seems rather disingenuous to me.

Also you ignore that a dreadnought firing at a planet in order to hit a reaper stationed there would need to have near precise accuracy, which we are told is not possible as the reapers are scrambling targeting systems against them. Otherwise you would unleash the energy equivilant of a atomic bomb upon the missed target, and seeing as you have ground forces operating there, that would be a rather bad idea to eyeball something like that. You need something that can get closer so that it can get a clearer shot at the reaper, without the fear of being shot out of space by the reaper vessels.

Also, you are comparing the mechanics of a cannon to the mechanics of a missle, they are different types of weapons, and comparing the two is highly disengenuous. Along with this, is the seeming accusation that because we have handgun mass accelerators, that we can also have a accerlator cannon of a ship used to fire thanix blast of, and I quote, "The Thanix's core is a liquid alloy of iron, uranium, and tungsten
suspended in an electromagnetic field powered by element zero." which according to the wiki, " accelerated to a significant fraction of the speed of light, solidifies
into a projectile as it is fired, hitting targets with enough force to
pierce any known shield or armor." made for use for groundside forces the same way a handgun or sniper rifle could be deployed, and that a manually operate weapon would require the same energy as a cannon to fire.

But you provided evidence, and didn't resort to petty insults in your response, so for that, I thank you.

#257
Cainhurst Crow

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Double post, my mistake.

I think it's time to end this, it's becoming off topic.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 18 juin 2013 - 07:28 .


#258
KaiserShep

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themikefest wrote...

"You're going to need more than guns to finish them Shepard"---T'Soni
"Can't just shoot them"--T'Soni

both lines occur while shooting the Cerberus troopers after meeting T'soni


This is the unfortunate side effect of having the game give you introductory tips in the first mission, if you're a newcomer unfamiliar with controlling a squaddie's biotics. Jacob does similar during your escape from the Cerberus space station after being guided by Miranda. I wish they kept this as a pop up text box rather than have the squad member blurt stuff out though. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 18 juin 2013 - 07:31 .


#259
DirtySHISN0

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Cthulhu42 wrote...

As opposed to the rest of the crew, who are all shocked and appalled if Shepard chooses to lets the geth die?


They aren't all there to actively oppose the decision.

#260
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DirtySHISN0 wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

As opposed to the rest of the crew, who are all shocked and appalled if Shepard chooses to lets the geth die?


They aren't all there to actively oppose the decision.

No, but they're all there on the ship to actively celebrate the decision once you've done it.

Modifié par Cthulhu42, 18 juin 2013 - 07:36 .


#261
Sir DeLoria

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DirtySHISN0 wrote...


Taking things out of context is what i do best.

There is no moral difference in killing either group in my opinion. Which makes it all the easier to see that Tali assumed it was perfectly acceptable (and probable) that shepard get rid of the geth. She later admits to this if you choose peace.


I disagree because:

- the Quarians created the Geth in the first place
- the Geth are just synthetics
- if you choose destroy, the Quarians' deaths were unneccessary since you stab the Geth in the back anyway
- the Quarians might have done bad things, but that was 300 years ago, now they just want their homeworld back

#262
Sir DeLoria

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MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Well, that's her problem then. If I can't make peace, the Quarians are history. I know what I'm doing and why I'm doing it. If Tali doesn't like, that's her problem. 

In a struggle for existence and survival, such as the Reaper War, morality and ethics don't have the same meaning or clout as they did previously. 

From my point of view, the Quarians (and Tali) are actively working to hamper my overall effort against the Reapers by targeting the now friendly Geth and wasting their own forces against them. I'm not going to tolerate that.


"17 million civillians were murdered because of me, an entire race got wiped out. Well it was war, morals mean nothing in war."

Great excuse! This is kind of the answer, you'd expect from a dictator like Josef Stalin.

#263
Maxster_

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Darth Brotarian wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...


Enough?



Not really, since a lot of what you posted was bloated and unrelated, like your first quote on space combat.

It was related to a base design decisions of ship-grade kinetic weaponry. Meaning it was designed to act in space, where, you know, is no atmosphere.
Anyway, with such kinetic energy, it is irrelevant, if there is an atmosphere, in a context of changing trajectory.

You also seem to work on the assumption that modern firearm slugs do not squash, smash, and deform upon impact. They do in fact do this, and it can make extracting a bullet that much more difficult, espically if small slivers of it break up inside the body, and we already have bullets designed to shatter upon impact, they're called hollowpoint rounds.

That is your delusion. In comparison to you, i know how kinetic weapons works. Modern included.

Also ignoring that just because a weapon of high kinetic energy would generate heat upon impact, it would match the duration or temperature of a thanix round, and that the two are interchangable in some way with one another, seems rather disingenuous to me.

As i said, you have no idea about inelastic collision.
As it seems, you have also no idea, what is thanix weapon in MEU.

Normandy Weapon Upgrade: Thanix Magnetic-Hydrodynamic Weapon

Following the Battle of the Citadel, human and turian volunteers conducted a massive three-month survey effort to clear the station's orbit of debris. Secretly, the turian Office of Technological Reconnaissance "volunteers" were technology recovery specialists salvaging the main weapon of the geth flagship Sovereign, and large amounts of its valuable element zero core.

Contrary to popular belief, Sovereign's main gun was not a directed energy weapon. Rather, its massive element zero core powered an electromagnetic field suspending a liquid iron-uranium-tungsten alloy that shaped into armor-piercing projectiles when fired. The jet of molten metal, accelerated to a fraction of the speed of light, destroys targets by impact force and irresistible heat.

Only 11 months after the battle, the turians produced the Thanix, their own miniaturized version of Sovereign's gun. The Thanix can fire reliably every five seconds, rivaling a cruiser's firepower but mountable on a fighter or frigate.

It is a kinetic weapon, as is standart slug weapons of allied fleets prior to Sovereign.
It impact power comes solely from kinetic energy, with a small addition of heat energy.

Also you ignore that a dreadnought firing at a planet in order to hit a reaper stationed there would need to have near precise accuracy, which we are told is not possible as the reapers are scrambling targeting systems against them. Otherwise you would unleash the energy equivilant of a atomic bomb upon the missed target, and seeing as you have ground forces operating there, that would be a rather bad idea to eyeball something like that. You need something that can get closer so that it can get a clearer shot at the reaper, without the fear of being shot out of space by the reaper vessels.

What are you talking about?
Speaking about proof - you have none.

Moreso, it is completely unrelated to a topic. Which is lore-butchering nonsense, called "Thanix missile".

Also, you are comparing the mechanics of a cannon to the mechanics of a missle, they are different types of weapons, and comparing the two is highly disengenuous. Along with this, is the seeming accusation that because we have handgun mass accelerators, that we can also have a accerlator cannon of a ship used to fire thanix blast of, and I quote, "The Thanix's core is a liquid alloy of iron, uranium, and tungsten
suspended in an electromagnetic field powered by element zero." which according to the wiki, " accelerated to a significant fraction of the speed of light, solidifies
into a projectile as it is fired, hitting targets with enough force to
pierce any known shield or armor." made for use for groundside forces the same way a handgun or sniper rifle could be deployed, and that a manually operate weapon would require the same energy as a cannon to fire.

Load of nonsense.
Thanix weapon, is a kinetic weapon.
Kinetic energy given to a projectile, in MEU, depends on the length of the barrel(which is obvious). Hence, - codex entries about that.
Therefore, that missile can not be "Thanix", or its power would be lower than a main gun of a Mako.
Thus, it is completely useless as a ship-grade weapon, it will never pass through kinetic shield, not even speaking about armor.

Sovereign is the flagship of the rogue Spectre Saren Arterius. An enormous dreadnought larger than any other ship in any known fleet, Sovereign is crewed with both geth and krogan. At two kilometers long, its spinal-mounted main gun is likely capable of penetrating another dreadnought's kinetic barriers with a single shot.

The prevailing opinion is that Sovereign is a geth construct, while others believe it is a Prothean relic. Its design, however, hints at a more alien and mysterious origin. The attack on Eden Prime demonstrated Sovereign's ability to generate mass effect fields powerful enough to land on a planetary surface. This implies it has a massive element zero core, and the ability to generate staggering amounts of power.



#264
DirtySHISN0

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Necanor wrote...

I disagree because:

- the Quarians created the Geth in the first place
- the Geth are just synthetics
- if you choose destroy, the Quarians' deaths were unneccessary since you stab the Geth in the back anyway
- the Quarians might have done bad things, but that was 300 years ago, now they just want their homeworld back


The first point is largely irrelevant.

The italic stuff is opinion - that i dont agree with, but whatever i'm not going to tell you opinion is wrong.

Modifié par DirtySHISN0, 18 juin 2013 - 07:48 .


#265
DirtySHISN0

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Cthulhu42 wrote...

No, but they're all there on the ship to actively celebrate the decision once you've done it.


Whats you point?

put your wooden spoon away.

#266
MassivelyEffective0730

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Necanor wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Well, that's her problem then. If I can't make peace, the Quarians are history. I know what I'm doing and why I'm doing it. If Tali doesn't like, that's her problem. 

In a struggle for existence and survival, such as the Reaper War, morality and ethics don't have the same meaning or clout as they did previously. 

From my point of view, the Quarians (and Tali) are actively working to hamper my overall effort against the Reapers by targeting the now friendly Geth and wasting their own forces against them. I'm not going to tolerate that.


"17 million civillians were murdered because of me, an entire race got wiped out. Well it was war, morals mean nothing in war."

Great excuse! This is kind of the answer, you'd expect from a dictator like Josef Stalin.


You completely misunderstood what I'm saying. I think it was intentionally misrepresentative on your part in fact.

I never said morals didn't mean anything, which in of itself is subjective. Morals are too often defined as real and objective, which they are not. Calling me a ruthless dictator will not change my mind.

The Quarians, from my perspective, are stopping me from utilizing vital resources against the Reapers. I'm not going to standby and let them bull**** around because it's "moral" or because they're civilians.

This is a different war than anything that's ever been fought. And when you have your back to the wall, there are few options that you aren't willing to do to survive.

#267
MassivelyEffective0730

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Necanor wrote...

DirtySHISN0 wrote...


Taking things out of context is what i do best.

There is no moral difference in killing either group in my opinion. Which makes it all the easier to see that Tali assumed it was perfectly acceptable (and probable) that shepard get rid of the geth. She later admits to this if you choose peace.


I disagree because:

- the Quarians created the Geth in the first place
- the Geth are just synthetics
- if you choose destroy, the Quarians' deaths were unneccessary since you stab the Geth in the back anyway
- the Quarians might have done bad things, but that was 300 years ago, now they just want their homeworld back


"Just Synthetics"? Are you saying that synthetic life is inherently worth less than an organic one? I think that's incredibly arrogant and racist.

You aren't making much of an argument. By destroying, I'm not stabbing the Geth in the back, nor am I making the Quarians death's unnecessary. I'm choosing an option that rids the universe of the Reapers with the unfortunate side effect of temporarily eradicating synthetic life as well. 

The Quarians on the other hand refused to listen to reason and were more obsessed with their vendetta against the Geth than actually putting aside their problem and working with the Geth to reintegrate onto Rannoch.

As it is, they're proving the Catalyst right by deciding that the Geth must die forever and starting a pointless war to get a homeworld they'll likely lose to the Reapers anyway if the war progresses to that point. And they're wasting Geth resources and their own in this pointless fight.

They're actively halting my ability to fight the Reapers, and by attacking the Geth, forcing them to side with the Reapers.

The Quarians have learned nothing in their 300 years away from Rannoch. If I didn't need their fleet, and if they hadn't forced the Geth to side with the Reapers, I'd leave them to die in their own system. They're complete idiots.

#268
Sir DeLoria

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Seriously? The war assets of the mission, whichever side you choose, are totaly irrelevant. Geth and Quarians are almost equally strong and you only need 3100 EMS to score the best ending(you can get over 6000 total).

Just because we're at war, doesn't mean we can sacrifice 17 million civilians. A genocide, or any killing of this scale can never be justified, no matter what.

Modifié par Necanor, 18 juin 2013 - 08:12 .


#269
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DirtySHISN0 wrote...

Whats you point?

That it's rather odd to point out that someone doesn't care about the geth as if it's out of the ordinary when it's nearly a universally-held opinion in-game.

It'd be like me pointing out that Garrus isn't fond of the Blue Suns.

Modifié par Cthulhu42, 18 juin 2013 - 08:17 .


#270
knightnblu

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MegaSovereign wrote...

Most of Shepard's lines in any romance.

Yup, it is amazing that many of the writers at BioWare are actually married. One wonders how they accomplished that with the dialog that they give Shepard.

#271
Steelcan

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Necanor wrote...

Seriously? The war assets of the mission, whichever side you choose, are totaly irrelevant. Geth and Quarians are almost equally strong and you only need 3100 EMS to score the best ending(you can get over 6000 total).

Just because we're at war, doesn't mean we can sacrifice 17 million civilians. A genocide, or any killing of this scale can never be justified, no matter what.

It absolutely can.  This is a war for surviival there is no altetnative but extinction or victory.  Id kill the quarians 100x over to gaurantee victory.  Thankfully I dont ha e to, Ican kill the geth and call it a job well done.

#272
Sir DeLoria

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So your argument is sacrifice a billion people here to let 2 billion live there.

Modifié par Necanor, 18 juin 2013 - 08:26 .


#273
Steelcan

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Necanor wrote...

So your argument is sacrifice a billion people here to let 2 billion live there. It's an interesting thesis, but that situation should always be avoided by all means neccessary. Now in the case of the Quarian/Geth war, it can be avoided without any problems what so ever.

But that geth unit is so sellable!

#274
Sir DeLoria

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After the Geth have been dealt with, I'm sure there will be enough dead Geth for everyone.

#275
DirtySHISN0

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Cthulhu42 wrote...
That it's rather odd to point out that someone doesn't care about the geth as if it's out of the ordinary when it's nearly a universally-held opinion in-game.

It'd be like me pointing out that Garrus isn't fond of the Blue Suns.


But thats the whole point of the war, the quarians only care for themselves.