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[garrusfan1]

they wouldn't be able to do the blood magic sacrifice without their slaves (or at least as much). I only considered them evil because they had slavery and did the blood magic sacrifices and such. So if they didn't have slavery would you consider them as evil or less evil or not at all

[imbs]

I'd consider Tevinter to be less awesome if they didn't have slavery, if that counts or is relevant at all.

[Qyla]

We've always heard about Tevinter from people who hate the country, I don't think it's all evil and stuff. Before judging I want to understand better and let's not forget that Ferelden had slavery too. Does that make Ferelden a bad country? And Orlis too?

[imbs]

Qyla wrote...

We've always heard about Tevinter from people who hate the country, I don't think it's all evil and stuff. Before judging I want to understand better and let's not forget that Ferelden had slavery too. Does that make Ferelden a bad country? And Orlis too?

How progressive of you.

[Qyla]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Qyla wrote...

We've always heard about Tevinter from people who hate the country, I don't think it's all evil and stuff. Before judging I want to understand better and let's not forget that Ferelden had slavery too. Does that make Ferelden a bad country? And Orlis too?

Considering rape is legal in Orlais if you are a chevialar and Feraldan is only slightly better in its treatment of elves than most countries?

Yeah, I say they are pretty terrible.

That's my point! It's not black & white so until I don't get to see Tevinter or hear about it from a Tevinter-not-hater I don't want to judge. We've seen Ferelden, so we don't see that country as "bad". But in Ferelden the Chantry has a strong power (They were under Orlais Empire) and is obvious that a country with such a history would see as bad the country of the Black Divine, wheter the situation is so grave or not.

[Dave of Canada]

Why would a system which prides itself on killing the weak and having the strong rise to the top ever abolish slavery when their primary source of power requires sacrifice of other beings? Hypothetically, abolishing slavery would just be a way of thinning out magisters with stronger mages manipulating the backround.

Tevinter would still be a hellhole.

[garrusfan1]

Qyla wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

Qyla wrote...

We've always heard about Tevinter from people who hate the country, I don't think it's all evil and stuff. Before judging I want to understand better and let's not forget that Ferelden had slavery too. Does that make Ferelden a bad country? And Orlis too?

Considering rape is legal in Orlais if you are a chevialar and Feraldan is only slightly better in its treatment of elves than most countries?

Yeah, I say they are pretty terrible.

That's my point! It's not black & white so until I don't get to see Tevinter or hear about it from a Tevinter-not-hater I don't want to judge. We've seen Ferelden, so we don't see that country as "bad". But in Ferelden the Chantry has a strong power (They were under Orlais Empire) and is obvious that a country with such a history would see as bad the country of the Black Divine, wheter the situation is so grave or not.

well everyone we hear it from that it comes in a positive light (so to speak) is from slavers and people who are horrible

[Who is that Masked Man]

We've been told that Archons have attempted to ban slavery in Tevinter before, only to be overthrown or assassinated by the other magisters. Having slaves (who can be sacrified in Blood Magic rituals) is just too firmly ingrained in Tevinter culture for it to be easily done away with.

Basically the only way you could have Tevinter without slaves is if the whole existing power structure was overturned, such as in a popular rebellion, foreign invasion, or the rise of an abolitionist archon who is so much more powerful than the other magisters that he is able to ban slavery and make it stick.

In any of those cases, Tevinter would have to be so dramatically transformed that it wouldn't really be the Imperium any more.

[andar91]

I don't necessarily think of Tevinter as evil, though it certainly has some stuff going on (slavery and sacrifice, for instance) that I certainly object to. But a country is made up of lots of different kinds of people, so I hestitate to label it in one fell swoop. And as other posters have pointed out, other countries in Thedas (Thedasian?) have some morally questionable (at best) stuff going on. My point is that not everybody walking around in Tevinter is a slaver or slaveholder, or even a mage at all.

And btw, rape is legal for Chevaliers? That's outrageous! I did not know that. Where was that told?

[RobRam10]

andar91 wrote...

I don't necessarily think of Tevinter as evil, though it certainly has some stuff going on (slavery and sacrifice, for instance) that I certainly object to. But a country is made up of lots of different kinds of people, so I hestitate to label it in one fell swoop. And as other posters have pointed out, other countries in Thedas (Thedasian?) have some morally questionable (at best) stuff going on. My point is that not everybody walking around in Tevinter is a slaver or slaveholder, or even a mage at all.

And btw, rape is legal for Chevaliers? That's outrageous! I did not know that. Where was that told?

Chevaliers are above legal reprucussions meaning they can do anything to the lower classes and peasants and get away with it.

Modifié par RobRam10, 15 juin 2013 - 10:50 .

[Who is that Masked Man]

andar91 wrote...

I don't necessarily think of Tevinter as evil, though it certainly has some stuff going on (slavery and sacrifice, for instance) that I certainly object to. But a country is made up of lots of different kinds of people, so I hestitate to label it in one fell swoop. And as other posters have pointed out, other countries in Thedas (Thedasian?) have some morally questionable (at best) stuff going on. My point is that not everybody walking around in Tevinter is a slaver or slaveholder, or even a mage at all.

And btw, rape is legal for Chevaliers? That's outrageous! I did not know that. Where was that told?

Lisette, in the Denerim market, nearly got raped by a Chevalier. She explains that as a reward for their service to Orlais, Chevaliers are allowed to do whatever they want to to lower classes.

Also, from the codex entry about Chevaliers: "Sadly, some members of the order abuse their power to commit atrocities that will not be recounted here. All decent Orlesians know them to be no true knights. One day, they shall answer to the Maker himself."

Which, presumably, is not a great comfort to these "untrue" Chevaliers' victims.

One would hope that such Chevaliers are few and far between, but really, there's no excuse for any of them being allowed that kind of behavior. 

[garrusfan1]

andar91 wrote...

I don't necessarily think of Tevinter as evil, though it certainly has some stuff going on (slavery and sacrifice, for instance) that I certainly object to. But a country is made up of lots of different kinds of people, so I hestitate to label it in one fell swoop. And as other posters have pointed out, other countries in Thedas (Thedasian?) have some morally questionable (at best) stuff going on. My point is that not everybody walking around in Tevinter is a slaver or slaveholder, or even a mage at all.

And btw, rape is legal for Chevaliers? That's outrageous! I did not know that. Where was that told?

in origins if you go to denerim talk to the merchant that is from orlais she is a women and she sells oils and such (though you can't buy anything) she says the chevaliers are allowed privleges with lesser born. she says a chevalier took an interest in her and it was unwelcome then her brother hit him in the head with a frying pan which was essentialy treason and they fled to ferelden. yeah orlais is sick and they have serfs which is just a fancy way of saying slave

[Kalak]

Our only real exposure to Tevinter has been through a bunch of criminals and power-tripping mages (Danarius, Hadriana, the slavers in the Alienage, and Danarius' personal hit-squads). And the only picture we;ve gotten of life in the Imperium is through the eyes of people who either outright hate it (Fenris) or strongly mistrust it (Brother Genitivi). Personally, I don't think a few thugs and psychopaths give us a remotely clear picture of the nation or its people, any more than the Batarain criminals you meet in Mass Effect are indicative of the majority of their species.

Admittedly, life under the Tevinter mageocracy doesn't sound particularly PLEASANT, but then again, you could say the same for Orlais and Ferelden and Orzammar, all of which have their darker elements (the implied brutality of the Dwarven caste system is a pretty close second to Tevinter's slave economy as far as unpleasantries go)

I wouldn't rush to judge all of Tevinter based solely on the scum and villainy we've encountered in Ferelden and Kirkwall. (Also, even though he's an **** slaver, I kind of loved Caladrius.....his dry wit and sarcasm while parleying was some of the funniest NPC dialogue in the game)

[Palidane]

I've never understood the sympathy some people have for Tevinter. Fenris tells us about his experiences there, and most of his claims are not subjective. He doesn't make generic accusations, he says "Yeah, I was born and raised a slave to a powerful magister. He forced several of his slaves into a death match for the honor of having a horrible experiment be performed on him. He had me serve food at meetings to intimidate the other magisters, put me on a literal leash to mock Qunari customs, and once murdered a small boy to fuel fireworks at a party". Those are factual claims, either they are true or they are not. We know Fenris isn't some random elf who is making this up as he goes along, because Danarius does come for him and most of his story is directly confirmed.

So it's not like the blood magic and slavery doesn't happen. Tevinter may have a bright side to it that we don't know about, but the evil doesn't just go away.

[garrusfan1]

Palidane wrote...

I've never understood the sympathy some people have for Tevinter. Fenris tells us about his experiences there, and most of his claims are not subjective. He doesn't make generic accusations, he says "Yeah, I was born and raised a slave to a powerful magister. He forced several of his slaves into a death match for the honor of having a horrible experiment be performed on him. He had me serve food at meetings to intimidate the other magisters, put me on a literal leash to mock Qunari customs, and once murdered a small boy to fuel fireworks at a party". Those are factual claims, either they are true or they are not. We know Fenris isn't some random elf who is making this up as he goes along, because Danarius does come for him and most of his story is directly confirmed.

So it's not like the blood magic and slavery doesn't happen. Tevinter may have a bright side to it that we don't know about, but the evil doesn't just go away.

but if they got rid of slavery and the sacrificial blood magic

[Qyla]

So as far as we know chevaliers are not persecuted for what they do, allowing them to keep on doing it. Does it make Orlais evil? Nope, but as all exsisting countries (real one too) black & white does not exsist

[garrusfan1]

Kalak wrote...

Our only real exposure to Tevinter has been through a bunch of criminals and power-tripping mages (Danarius, Hadriana, the slavers in the Alienage, and Danarius' personal hit-squads). And the only picture we;ve gotten of life in the Imperium is through the eyes of people who either outright hate it (Fenris) or strongly mistrust it (Brother Genitivi). Personally, I don't think a few thugs and psychopaths give us a remotely clear picture of the nation or its people, any more than the Batarain criminals you meet in Mass Effect are indicative of the majority of their species.

Admittedly, life under the Tevinter mageocracy doesn't sound particularly PLEASANT, but then again, you could say the same for Orlais and Ferelden and Orzammar, all of which have their darker elements (the implied brutality of the Dwarven caste system is a pretty close second to Tevinter's slave economy as far as unpleasantries go)

I wouldn't rush to judge all of Tevinter based solely on the scum and villainy we've encountered in Ferelden and Kirkwall. (Also, even though he's an **** slaver, I kind of loved Caladrius.....his dry wit and sarcasm while parleying was some of the funniest NPC dialogue in the game)

actually the castless (before bhelen was king or if harrowmont was) are treated worse since they have no purpose they aren't even allowed jobs and since they aren't considered people no one can get in trouble if they kill or do anything to them. that was a good point

[Kalak]

garrusfan1 wrote...

actually the castless (before bhelen was king or if harrowmont was) are treated worse since they have no purpose they aren't even allowed jobs and since they aren't considered people no one can get in trouble if they kill or do anything to them. that was a good point

A good point.  Dwarven casteless is pretty horrendous.

[Qyla]

And what about city elfs? Should I remind you the whole marriage kidnapping/raping thing?

[garrusfan1]

Qyla wrote...

And what about city elfs? Should I remind you the whole marriage kidnapping/raping thing?

the worst part of that was that the guards actually helped and it was a lot of them helping.

[FaWa]

The Elven Alienages in Ferelden
The Casteless Dwarves in Orzammar
The Slaves in Tevinter
The trainwreck that is Antiva

Also lets remember the Templars have no problem imprisoning the mages in non-Tevinter places.