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[KiwiQuiche]

Morocco Mole wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
There's that Chantry doctrine again.

Since Corypheus exists I think we can conclude there is some grain of truth to it.

But he claims the Golden City was not so golden, so the Chantry was lying about that at least.

And Darkspawn reproduce via Broodmothers, so where did that first bunch come from? And didn't Dawrves encounter darkspawn before Cory?

[Medhia Nox]

@Narrow Margin: That's not correct.

We are radically different when compared to 1.5 million other living species.

[Neon Rising Winter]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Narrow Margin: That's not correct.

We are radically different when compared to 1.5 million other living species.

But we are still part of nature. If not, what on earth do you think we are?

[KainD]

Medhia Nox wrote...
@KainD: So if someone can overpower you - then they deserve to control you? 

Nobody deserves anything, but it is wise for them to do so, as they do. 

Medhia Nox wrote...
Do you perhaps live in a suburban community in America - enjoy a majority status and a middle to high socio-economic background? Perhaps even attending high-school, college or bachelor(ette) just after college status?

I find more often than not these are qualities of moral relativists. 

But most moral relativists are grossly inconsistent in practice.

You got me a little confused there with that sentence ( english not first langueage ). 
My economic well being is fair, I have contradicting views to the majority more often than not, and I attend a university. If that is what you asked.

I believe in moral relativism, but that doesn't mean that I don't have my own morals. 
I draw a line between what is right ( which nothing is, it is subjective ) and between what I personally believe is right, upon which I act. And I make sure to never forget about it, never to blame and never try to find justice. 

[Plaintiff]

Morocco Mole wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
But he claims the Golden City was not so golden, so the Chantry was lying about that at least.

And Darkspawn reproduce via Broodmothers, so where did that first bunch come from? And didn't Dawrves encounter darkspawn before Cory?

The city may not have been golden, but it is clear the magisters wanted to usurp whatever power they believed was there. Manipulated or not.

The blight the magisters left over corrupted dwarven women and turned some into broodmothers. Leading to genlocks. It's vague, but is certainly possible within the lore.

How did the Blight get underground, then?

[KiwiQuiche]

Morocco Mole wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
But he claims the Golden City was not so golden, so the Chantry was lying about that at least.

And Darkspawn reproduce via Broodmothers, so where did that first bunch come from? And didn't Dawrves encounter darkspawn before Cory?

The city may not have been golden, but it is clear the magisters wanted to usurp whatever power they believed was there. Manipulated or not.

The blight the magisters left over corrupted dwarven women and turned some into broodmothers. Leading to genlocks. It's vague, but is certainly possible within the lore.

That was Dumat trolling in most cases. So? People are power-hungry; we naturally want to keep positions of power and to try and gain positions of power if we don't have one.

Exactly; we don't really know what really happened. Yet the Chantry used that to point fingers at mages.

[KainD]

Narrow Margin wrote...

But we are still part of nature. If not, what on earth do you think we are?

I don't know, but somehow peope have mutated ( evolved ) to be able to overide natural instincts that usually work like a clock in all other species. Other species live to survive and procreate, while some people have moved past that, and do not want to procreate or live for self-made ideas they believe in or love, art, awe, you name it. And often place these ideas above life and are ready to die for them. 

[Palidane]

KainD wrote...

Narrow Margin wrote...

But we are still part of nature. If not, what on earth do you think we are?

I don't know, but somehow peope have mutated ( evolved ) to be able to overide natural instincts that usually work like a clock in all other species. Other species live to survive and procreate, while some people have moved past that, and do not want to procreate or live for self-made ideas they believe in or love, art, awe, you name it. And often place these ideas above life and are ready to die for them. 

...and you're against that?

Modifié par Palidane, 16 juin 2013 - 03:47 .

[Neon Rising Winter]

KainD wrote...

Narrow Margin wrote...

But we are still part of nature. If not, what on earth do you think we are?

I don't know, but somehow peope have mutated ( evolved ) to be able to overide natural instincts that usually work like a clock in all other species. Other species live to survive and procreate, while some people have moved past that, and do not want to procreate or live for self-made ideas they believe in or love, art, awe, you name it. And often place these ideas above life and are ready to die for them. 

I'm not understanding your point. Are you saying these things can't
contribute to the survival potential of a species? Consider, wouldn't
they be byproducts of abstract thought or strong social bonds which you could say were the
traits being preserved.

[KainD]

Palidane wrote...

...and you're against that?

No, why?

[Palidane]

KainD wrote...

Palidane wrote...
...and you're against that?

No, why?

KainD wrote...
No I am serious. I've been thinking this through for a couple of months and decided that strongest survives is the way of nature and that there is nothing wrong with that, but that it is actually the right way. People have gone very far from nature though, and not a lot of natural things remain in our modern world. Things can work differently. 

Well, if we stopped being natural, and survival of the fittest is the way to go, then aren't you opposed to our current situation?

Modifié par Palidane, 16 juin 2013 - 03:53 .

[The Hierophant]

Plaintiff wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
But he claims the Golden City was not so golden, so the Chantry was lying about that at least.

And Darkspawn reproduce via Broodmothers, so where did that first bunch come from? And didn't Dawrves encounter darkspawn before Cory?

The city may not have been golden, but it is clear the magisters wanted to usurp whatever power they believed was there. Manipulated or not.

The blight the magisters left over corrupted dwarven women and turned some into broodmothers. Leading to genlocks. It's vague, but is certainly possible within the lore.

How did the Blight get underground, then?

Despite the intial outbreak on the surface it's technically not a Blight until an Archdemon is corrupted.

It's only speculation but the first ghouls probably followed Dumat's voice underground where they spent an unspecified amount of years searching for him during the two centuries between the GC trip, and the Blight's end.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 16 juin 2013 - 03:55 .

[KainD]

Narrow Margin wrote...

I'm not understanding your point. Are you saying these things can't
contribute to the survival potential of a species? Consider, wouldn't
they be byproducts of abstract thought or strong social bonds which you could say were the
traits being preserved.

These things do not contribute to the survival of the species no. Though there is much more that does, but is nor related. 

[KainD]

Palidane wrote...
Well, if we stopped being natural, and survival of the fittest is the way to go, then aren't you opposed to our current situation?

No, because I don't have my own moral stance on the issue. I believe it can work both way, both natural and unnatural. 

[Neon Rising Winter]

KainD wrote...

Narrow Margin wrote...

I'm not understanding your point. Are you saying these things can't
contribute to the survival potential of a species? Consider, wouldn't
they be byproducts of abstract thought or strong social bonds which you could say were the
traits being preserved.

These things do not contribute to the survival of the species no. Though there is much more that does, but is nor related. 

Wait, abstract thought and strong social bonds do not contribute to the success of humanity? Or you don't think art is a form of abstract thought and love is a strong social bond?

And edited to apologise for going off on a tangent completely unrelated
to the thread! This is what happens when I post at 5am. KainD, I am happy to talk by message, but I'm going to shut up here now.

Modifié par Narrow Margin, 16 juin 2013 - 04:03 .

[Dave of Canada]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Exactly; we don't really know what really happened. Yet the Chantry used that to point fingers at mages.

Only because mages are the only ones capable of going into "heaven", it's irrelevant whether it was corrupt or not but the fact remains that the magisters were corrupted and brought said corruption back. Hell, Anders even says the Chantry might have a point.

[KiwiQuiche]

Dave of Canada wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Exactly; we don't really know what really happened. Yet the Chantry used that to point fingers at mages.

Only because mages are the only ones capable of going into "heaven", it's irrelevant whether it was corrupt or not but the fact remains that the magisters were corrupted and brought said corruption back. Hell, Anders even says the Chantry might have a point.

So for something a few people did it's okay to blame the whole lot over 900 years later?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Dwarven and Chantry accounts of the origins of the darkspawn are not contradictory at all. The Chant says the magisters fled underground searching for Dumat and the Old Gods and spread the taint in doing so.

I don't think Corypheus was saying that the city was always black, but even if he was that still makes the magisters responsible for bringing the blight to the world.

[Plaintiff]

Dave of Canada wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Exactly; we don't really know what really happened. Yet the Chantry used that to point fingers at mages.

Only because mages are the only ones capable of going into "heaven", it's irrelevant whether it was corrupt or not but the fact remains that the magisters were corrupted and brought said corruption back. Hell, Anders even says the Chantry might have a point.

Anders always believed the Chantry version of events. He still disagrees that it is grounds for vilifying mages now.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 16 juin 2013 - 04:13 .

[Dave of Canada]

So we can't safeguard over people who are capable of manipulating reality and breaching the heavens.

Ok.

Edit: About Anders, he always felt it was exaggerated to condemn mages. At the end of the DLC, he goes "Oh ****" when he sees the necklace on Corypheus.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 16 juin 2013 - 04:15 .

[KainD]

Dave of Canada wrote...

So we can't safeguard over people who are capable of manipulating reality and breaching the heavens.

Ok.

No you can't. 

You also can't safeguard against me running you over by my car. I can do it any moment  - just turn my stearing wheel and run over a random pedestrian in the street. It is in my power, no one is safe.

[Plaintiff]

Dave of Canada wrote...

So we can't safeguard over people who are capable of manipulating reality and breaching the heavens.

Ok.

Whether or not you agree with the sentiment is irrelevent. The fact remains that believing in the Chantry's version of history and supporting their current actions are two separate actions, and one can do either without doing both.

But since you brought it up, I don't believe that a travesty committed in the past, however extreme, is grounds for subjugating an entire group of people. You notice we didn't immediatly lock up all of Germany and Japan after World War II, nor did we lock up all of America for causing an unprecedented level of devastation with a single bomb. And yet all these groups possess the capability to very easily replicate those actions, should they so choose.

Edit: About Anders, he always felt it was exaggerated to condemn mages. At the end of the DLC, he goes "Oh ****" when he sees the necklace on Corypheus.

You'd go "Oh ****" too if you realized the man you were talking to has been alive for many thousands of years. You'll notice that at no point ever does Anders say "The Chant of Light is accurate, therefore I will abandon my cause and turn myself in."

Anders believed in the Chant of Light, he never expected to find hard, living evidence of its accuracy. Surprise and shock are natural reactions. It doesn't imply sudden conversion. Discovering a man from the past has no relevance whatsoever to events in the present.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 16 juin 2013 - 04:28 .

[Plaintiff]

KainD wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

So we can't safeguard over people who are capable of manipulating reality and breaching the heavens.

Ok.

No you can't. 

You also can't safeguard against me running you over by my car. I can do it any moment  - just turn my stearing wheel and run over a random pedestrian in the street. It is in my power, no one is safe.

Well, crossing guards are worth more points, so I'd say they should be the most concerned.