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[Tarek]

every empire has slavery is some way or form the tevinter are no different and no more evil than any other place

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Not really. Tevinter has actual legal slaves that they use for fodder to increase their power. Tevinter has probably the highest gap between those well off and those not.

[bEVEsthda]

"Evil"? Whaddya mean? "if it didn't have slavery"?



P.S. joke. for the large part of the BSN community who are prone to uberdrama and righteous self importance.

[Todd23]

I don't consider it evil now. Sure it has it's problems just like any other nation. Truth be told every time I made my own stories about my warden it usually included him climbing through the ranks in Tevinter and doing what he could to abolish slavery.

[BouncyFrag]

bEVEsthda wrote...

"Evil"? Whaddya mean? "if it didn't have slavery"?



P.S. joke. for the large part of the BSN community who are prone to uberdrama and righteous self importance.

They also get riled up if you support the Qunari.

[Zeldrik1389]

I don't think slavery make Tevinter "evil", nor they are anymore "evil" than other nations. Today slavery is wrong, but centuries ago, in the medieval time (which was the setting of DA world) it was pretty common. Even the US just got rid of it over a century ago. Also, infighting is pretty common too. Is it bad? Definitely. Does it make the nation "evil"? I don't think so. Olais is pretty "evil" too, consider how the nobles constantly fighting, killing each other in shadow. The different is in Tevinter they use blood magic, while in Olais, they use poison, and other dirty actions.

[Swoopdogg]

 Well, I like their style, but their morals are a bit on the dark side. As a whole, anyway, I'm sure there are some decent tevinters. But if they didn't have slavery and blood magic, they'd basically be a gothic, watered down version of orlais. I guess.

[Bleachrude]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...
I don't think Anders actually believed in the Chant...at least the part about the mages entering the golden city...

Which is why it's sol hilarious/satisfying to see him when Coryphus reveals that he was part of the mages that did try to enter the Golden City.

As for the Chantry itself, Corypheus himself confirms that the magisters thought the city was golden since before the ritual, they could tell it was.....so the chantry isn't lying there.

What MAY have happened (and what Corypheus himself doesn't seem to consider) is that simply entering the city immediately turned it black thus what they saw was a black city even though an instant beforehand, it was golden.

Not so. Corypheus says "We sought the golden light" and "the city was *supposed to be* golden". That's not a phrase you'd use had you seen it. It appears more plausible that the city had been described to them as golden, but it was really black all the time and they were misled by Dumat - or by whichever entity spoke to the magisters that they interpreted as Dumat's voice.

But doesn't this prove that the city was golden beforehand? The golden city existed as long as human history can remember it and to the magisters, it would have been obvious what colour it was appearing on the outside...

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

I'll support anyone who fights the Qunari, besides Tevinter has too much of an Eastern Roman Empire circa 1080 feel for me to hate it.

[Xilizhra]

But doesn't this prove that the city was golden beforehand? The golden city existed as long as human history can remember it and to the magisters, it would have been obvious what colour it was appearing on the outside...

Wouldn't "The city had been golden!" or "The city was golden!" have been a better phrase, then, than "it was supposed to be golden!"? The latter makes it sound a lot like the magisters had never seen it at all and had only had it described, or possibly seen visions of it, and there's no guarantee that the City was always in the center of the Fade.

[BlueMagitek]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

I'll support anyone who fights the Qunari, besides Tevinter has too much of an Eastern Roman Empire circa 1080 feel for me to hate it.

While I like the Byzantine Empire, I can really only equate the Black/White Chantries to the Catholic Church split.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

I'll support anyone who fights the Qunari, besides Tevinter has too much of an Eastern Roman Empire circa 1080 feel for me to hate it.

While I like the Byzantine Empire, I can really only equate the Black/White Chantries to the Catholic Church split.

The Great Schism is probably the most apt comparison. *Though to be fair it shouldn't have happened like it did, the powerless representatives of a dead pope and a pig headedly stubborn patriarch ruined everything for everyone*

The various protestant rebellions didn't have nearly as much central organization.

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 17 juin 2013 - 01:30 .

[BlueMagitek]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

The Great Schism is probably the most apt comparison. *Though to be fair it shouldn't have happened like it did, the powerless representatives of a dead pope and a pig headedly stubborn patriarch ruined everything for everyone*

The various protestant rebellions didn't have nearly as much central organization.

That is what I was referring to.  Prior to that it was just the Church, wasn't it?  The East/West split.

I suppose new Tevinter does act as the "Remnant" of old Tevinter.  I think the Byzantine Empire had more rights to its citizens.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

BlueMagitek wrote...



That is what I was referring to.  Prior to that it was just the Church, wasn't it?  The East/West split.

Technically.

Constantinople and Rome spent a few centuries arguing over which of them should be the most prominent.

Constantinople was the capital and beating heart of the Empire while Rome technically had a greater traditional claim.

Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem (The other three seats of the original Pentarchy) lost most of their importance when they fell to the Arabs shortly after the death of emperor Heraclius.

So the ERE/Tevinter comparison isn't perfect but it is still the best fit.

[BlueMagitek]

I see you're far more informed on this subject than I. I'll take your word for it.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

BlueMagitek wrote...

I see you're far more informed on this subject than I. I'll take your word for it.

Sorry about the infodump I majored in Medieval European history with a focus on the ERE.

I tend to run off at the mouth keyboard whenever it comes up.

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
Wouldn't "The city had been golden!" or "The city was golden!" have been a better phrase, then, than "it was supposed to be golden!"? The latter makes it sound a lot like the magisters had never seen it at all and had only had it described, or possibly seen visions of it, and there's no guarantee that the City was always in the center of the Fade.

No, it works perfectly fine if the city was golden from the outside. The fact that there was some horrible taint locked inside does not preclude it from looking like a golden city in the Fade. 

[BlueMagitek]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

I see you're far more informed on this subject than I. I'll take your word for it.

Sorry about the infodump I majored in Medieval European history with a focus on the ERE.

I tend to run off at the mouth keyboard whenever it comes up.

Oh no, it is quite interesting, thank you for sharing. ^^

But yeah, the White/Black difference is really the only major Byzantine vibe I got.

[jessielou]

In Exile wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Wouldn't "The city had been golden!" or "The city was golden!" have been a better phrase, then, than "it was supposed to be golden!"? The latter makes it sound a lot like the magisters had never seen it at all and had only had it described, or possibly seen visions of it, and there's no guarantee that the City was always in the center of the Fade.

No, it works perfectly fine if the city was golden from the outside. The fact that there was some horrible taint locked inside does not preclude it from looking like a golden city in the Fade. 

Is there any reason to believe that there ever was a "Golden" City aside from it being stated in the Chant of Light, which wasn't created until 20 or so years after the death of Andraste and around 200 years after the magisters assaulted the city?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Whether is was blackened by his arrival or black beforehand, Corypheus clearly thought it would be Golden before he got there.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 17 juin 2013 - 03:36 .

[jessielou]

He did think it would be Golden. Dumat is supposedly the one that led them there though. I'm just saying that could have been a lie to lure them there. Corypheus says there was supposed to be a Golden City, and as far as I know (not saying I didn't miss something) the only other source stating there was a Golden City is the Chant of Light, which was written a good two centuries AFTER the assault on the city and two decades AFTER the death of Andraste by her disciples.

My point is just that the only evidence we have of a "Golden" City ever having existed at all is a magister who may or may not have been lied to, and a religious doctrine written by regular old people a good long time after any of the related events happened.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Why would Dumat make up the color of the place to make the Black City more enticing? He already offered "the power of the gods themselves."

Well the Black City is an observable object in the Fade. It would have been the same prior to the First Blight so presumably there would be records then as there are now. We don't have any written records in the Codex from the time saying if it was either black or gold but Corypheus had some reason to think it would be Golden.

[jessielou]

I don't know. To make it more enticing? For that matter, why would Dumat offer them anything? And don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying that there wasn't a Golden City at some point. It's a different conversation, but I believe there was and have my own theories as to what could have happened.

There is a city that's observable in the Fade, but we have no evidence that it ever looked anything other than what it does now. We can't look at it now and say for certain that it's a "black" city. So, we don't really know if it's always looked as it does now and people were told or assumed this whole "golden" thing. It's possible there were written records, but we have no evidence of them. That's sort of my point. We only have two dubious sources of information on this topic.

As to the OP, since this seems to be fairly off topic. I don't think Tevinter would be Tevinter without slaves. It seems to define their very culture and has for nearly two thousand years.

[In Exile]

jessielou wrote...
Is there any reason to believe that there ever was a "Golden" City aside from it being stated in the Chant of Light, which wasn't created until 20 or so years after the death of Andraste and around 200 years after the magisters assaulted the city?

I don't have the thread saved, but we discussed this in a thread regarding religion (we also talked about whether Andraste didn't just make up this whole Maker business), and the response from DG was that (i) people saw the Golden City in the Fade, and had records about it which did survive, and (ii) the Cult of the Maker predates the Blight and Andraste's war on Tevinter.