107 réponses à ce sujet

[Laughing_Man]

The class of "Arcane Warrior" may or may not have been broken in DA:O. (it certainly was boring)

However, this does not mean that a new version of this class or something similar that combines might and magic can't be fun to play.

 

"Arcane Warrior" is just a name that fits in DA lore and describes a warrior with access to both might and magic.

You can call the class in any name you like: Jedi, Sith, Battle-Mage, etc.

The name matters little, what many want is not a return of the old Arcane Warrior in particular, but rather just a nice combo class between Mage-Warrior.

 

My personal preference is a more dynamic version of this combo class, instead of a class of passive bonuses and abilities, something more quick and impressive with actual abilities that you would expect from a mage specialising in close combat: A force blast instead of a warrior's shield-bash, that ring of ice from DA:A Battlemage spec, an ability to leap into combat vs. the warrior's pulling-with-the-chain-of-doom, etc.

 

All in all a class that shows enhancment of natural physical abilities, and also does not forget its magical roots and is not afraid to show them.

[upsettingshorts]

You'll get no argument on that from me.  Just "Arcane Warrior" is a bit loaded.

 

I'd do with Spellsword, personally.  That's basically what the archetype you describe is in Skyrim, and doesn't carry with it any of Arcane Warrior's dubious "merits."

[Alan Rickman]

As long as they change it from "1. Activate all buffs known to man, ensuring you won't be doing any actual casting since you won't have mana 2. Auto attack while effectively in godmode 3. ??? 4. Profit!".

 

There's nothing wrong with the concept of a mage in heavy armor that's competent in melee, the execution itself was just a tad boring in DAO. Extremely powerful, but boring.

[upsettingshorts]

Something that could work is a properly spec'd mage could maybe artificially increase his/her Fortitude via armor without raising Strength.

 

That way they wouldn't be knocked back so routinely and be able to cast continuously through standard (and non knockdown) hits.  But the armor would function in such a way that its primary benefit could be to enhance Fortitude and not as much Damage Reduction, so mages would still not hold up super well to sustained attacks.  Which ought to, at least in an RPG trinity system, be the domain of the warrior.

 

Note that such a concept would only work given DA2-style mechanics and not Origins, since Origins lacked the entire Fortitude mechanic.

 

A BIG part of what made mages so vulnerable in DA2 was their lack of Fortitude.  They simply wouldn't be able to defend themselves if even trash started getting hits in.  Raising a mage's Fortitude through armor would allow them to blast trash enemies before they could do them significant damage, but stronger enemies would still cut through their armor and demand a warrior reacquire aggro.

 

Caveat:  I haven't played either game in quite a while and my memory of how combat encounters play out may not be entirely accurate.  But I'm reasonably confident.

[theflyingzamboni]

As long as they change it from "1. Activate all buffs known to man, ensuring you won't be doing any actual casting since you won't have mana 2. Auto attack while effectively in godmode 3. ??? 4. Profit!".

 

There's nothing wrong with the concept of a mage in heavy armor that's competent in melee, the execution itself was just a tad boring in DAO. Extremely powerful, but boring.

I have to disagree with the "no actual casting" part. AW was the first class I played in DA:O, and by the time I reached the Deep Roads I recall just nuking everything with a full Storm of the Century, then charging in to mop up the remains while my party worked from range. Combined with Blood Mage in Awakening to be totally unkillable, and plenty of mana and health to cast whatever I wanted. Which was usually a Storm of the Century combo. Seriously, that combo broke a lot of the game, especially when you could AoE paralyze everything.

 

Not saying it wasn't still a little bland in execution, though.

[Alan Rickman]

I have to disagree with the "no actual casting" part. AW was the first class I played in DA:O, and by the time I reached the Deep Roads I recall just nuking everything with a full Storm of the Century, then charging in to mop up the remains while my party worked from range. Combined with Blood Mage in Awakening to be totally unkillable, and plenty of mana and health to cast whatever I wanted. Which was usually a Storm of the Century combo. Seriously, that combo broke a lot of the game, especially when you could AoE paralyze everything.

 

Not saying it wasn't still a little bland in execution, though.

 

That's one of the issues I had with it: basically requiring Blood Mage to be viable if you wanted to cast something outside of your buffs. I chose Spirit Healer.

 

I think the Arcane Warrior or Spellsword or whatever you'd call the archetype, should be more of a "jack of all trades, master of none" rather than an unstoppable killing machine no matter the circumstances that's simply superior to pretty much anything in every way imaginable.

 

Maybe do something like a flat out major nerf in damage output from their spells, I'd go as far as 50% of what a "normal" mage would do. The same thing would go for the melee side, they should never be able to out-tank a dedicated Warrior tank, or out-damage a Rogue. The appeal should be the versatility in being able to fulfill all of those roles and switching between them at will as necessary, while still being clearly inferior in those roles to dedicated Mages, Warriors and Rogues.

 

I'd want more "ok, so at the start of this encounter I'll rush those archers and engage them in melee to keep them from firing and I can take them no problem since they're crap at close range, meanwhile my tank is keeping that massive heavy hitter busy.... Oh crap! An enemy rogue is headed straight for my dedicated mage that's out of mana! Luckily I can toss a Horror that way to buy my Mage bro enough time to chug a potion and shove a fireball up his ass, as long as my spell isn't resisted. Fingers crossed!"

 

Less

[The Baconer]

So my idea for the spec was to split the ability tree into two sections: one that focuses on total offense, and another for tankiness and party support. I am assuming that, since we can only pick one specialization this time, the ability trees will be larger and more diverse.The two trees in this spec would be linked by the basic skill, combat magic.

 

COMBAT MAGIC (Sustained)
______________________

The mage focuses mana inward, gaining strength. They can now equip Light/Medium Armor (whatever the tier above robes will be in DA:I), and their Intelligence is used to govern damage done with melee weapons.

- Small defense bonus derived from Spellpower

 

From here, they would be able to branch out into either the Slayer tree or the Juggernaut tree. Here's my fanon Slayer tree:

 

 

SLAYER (Passive)
______________________

The mage can now use 2 handed weapons.

- 10% attack speed bonus

- damage bonus calculated from Spellpower

                       
                        HEARTFINDER
                        ______________________

                        15% bonus to critical chance

 

ARCANE STRIKE (Activated)
______________________

(Requires sword-and-shield or a two handed weapon) Magic arcs from the mage’s weapon as they strike 3 times, doing damage in a cone in front of the mage and applying an effect depending on the weapon’s current enchantment. Fully stacks with Concussive Force.
Cooldown: 60 seconds.

- Physical: Automatic critical on the third strike.

- Fire: Sets enemies ablaze, doing damage over time for a 6 second duration.

- Cold: Applies a 20% movement and attack slow on each attack. Each stack lasts 4 seconds.

- Lightning: On the third strike, a bolt of electricity strikes the target closest to the mage, and then randomly selecting another target within a radius. The bolt will jump 10 times, unless there are no enemies to jump to within the given radius. Each enemy struck will take damage and is afflicted with muscle spasms, being stunned for 1 second.

- Nature: Beginning on the first attack, each target within the damage cone is coated with a highly corrosive substance, disintegrating their armor and causing them to take bonus physical damage for a period of time.

- Spirit: Targets are scorched by energies from the Fade, causing them to take 25% extra damage from spells for the next 10 seconds.

 

                        UNSTABLE ENERGIES
                        ______________________

                        Extends the range of the damage cone.

 

CONCUSSIVE FORCE (Sustained)
______________________

(Requires sword-and-shield or a two handed weapon) While active, each attack has a 15% chance to stun for 1.5 seconds and do bonus damage, but consumes mana. The damage type will be determined by the weapon’s primary enchantment.
 

                        OVERWHELMING ASSAULT
                        ______________________

                        Increases the stun chance by 10%.

 

MYSTIC SURGE (Activated)
______________________

The mage channels energies through their body, gaining a 300% attack speed bonus for 8 seconds. Cooldown: 30 seconds.

 

FADE WALK (Activated)
______________________

The mage, empowered by residual energies, envelopes themselves within the Fade, and surges forward a set distance. Each time the mage casts a spell, a charge is created that lasts 10 seconds. When Fade Walk is activated, each enemy along the path of the surge takes spirit damage based on the number of charges consumed, and the mage’s spellpower. Fade Walk does not create a charge. Cooldown: 45 seconds.

 

I'll post the Juggernaut tree later.

[Shelondias]

I just cheated and added in some stat potions to up strength and constitution on my mage.
Wasn't completely a traditional arcane warrior, but it played the same as i played it in origins.

[The Baconer]

Juggernaut tree:

 

DEFENDER (Passive)
______________________

The mage can now equip shields, and empower them with magic.

- Extra armor rating derived from Spellpower. This extra armor rating is shared by the entire party.

 

UNYIELDING
______________________

Juggernaut now provides a bonus to Defense and Elemental Resistance, derived from Spellpower. This bonus is shared by the entire party.

 

VIGIL
______________________

The entire party now receives all bonus effects present on the mage’s equipped shield, at 50% effectiveness.

 

FADE SHIELD (Activated)
______________________

(Requires shield) The mage focuses the magic that enchants their shield, using it to cover an ally with a protective ward. Cooldown: 40 seconds.

- Initial casting will remove all debuffs and disables on target ally.
- Target ally is protected by a magical shield that will absorb a set amount of damage (derived from Spellpower), or dissipate naturally after 10 seconds. Allies protected by Fade Shield cannot be staggered or knocked down. Defense bonuses from Juggernaut are disabled while the shield is active.
                       
                       

            UNWAVERING FOCUS
            ______________________

                            Training and experience have granted the mage remarkable willpower.

                             - While Fade Shield is active, the party will still receive the defensive bonuses       
                             at 50% effectiveness.

 

 

PHANTASM (Activated)
______________________

Target ally or self. The mage generates mirrored illusions around the target that ripple when struck to confuse enemies, lasting for 15 seconds. Cooldown: 60 seconds.  

- Each time an enemy attacks or casts a targeted ability at a character protected by Phantasm, they will suffer an 8% penalty to attack and casting speed. This penalty will stack with each attack or spell until the enemy switches to a new target.

 

 

VINDICATION (Activated)
______________________

Target Ally. The mage uses their knowledge of illusions to manipulate enemies.

- All enemies targeting the selected ally are drawn to the Arcane Warrior, and are unable to switch targets again for 8 seconds. Cooldown: 35 seconds.

 

 

JUGGERNAUT (Passive/Sustained)
______________________

- Passive: The mage can now equip (Heavy or Massive) armor.

- Sustained: Drawing on their knowledge of the Fade, the mage constructs and maintains a                           
   magical layer of armor. This armor grants a large bonus to Defense, and a 25% chance to stun   
   enemies attacking the mage for 1 second.     

[JoltDealer]

The Arcane Warrior should return.  In fact, I think The Heroes of Dragon Age may be an indication that we might see it again, as we had both Elven and Tevinter Arcane Warriors showing up.  The techniques may still be taught by certain Dalish Clans or by certain Tevinter Magisters.  I think it's worth keeping it in mind as a possibility at least.

 

I think the old spells and skills were good enough.  If the specialization gets brought back, they should just balance things better.

[n7stormrunner]

I'd still prefer battle mage over arcane warrior, or at least a less game breaking version of arcane warrior. maybe one with fewer buffs and actual warrior/weapon skills

[Mornmagor]

"Bring back the broken class from Origins whose playstyle called for turning on every passive in the world then hacking the enemy to death with white hits!" - Said the forums, every year since 2009, for some reason.

 

Yeah i think we can all agree that nobody wants a broken version to return as it was.

 

The idea is to create something new, appropriate for DA:I, that allows Mages to equip heavy armor and more weapon variety, if they so wish. The play style would still be distinctive to something new, making an alternative play of Mage viable and interesting.

 

By the way, i believe that Arcane Warrior was broken not because of the spec itself, but its merge with Blood Mage and/or Spirit Healer. The combination was too much imo.

 

If they decide to make specializations more "special" this time around, like you having only one spec, the whole thing would be much easier to balance out.

 

I personally would like this idea as something new, lore wise, but even if they decided to bring the AW back itself, it would not be the same thing as in DA:O. Different game, different combat system, different abilities.

[KainD]

I personally would like this idea as something new, lore wise.

 

Lore wise arcane warrior is a silly spec. A well trained mage has weapons at his/her disposal far greater than simple steel and protection far greater than any armor or shield can offer. Lore wise carrying extra weight fatigues the mage and makes it harder t concentrate on said powerful spells, so why would any mage do this? They wouldn't, and it's just the game numbers than made specialization appealing, but from an analytic perspective the specialization makes zero sense. I don't want to see this spec personally. 

[Heimdall]

I'd still prefer battle mage over arcane warrior, or at least a less game breaking version of arcane warrior. maybe one with fewer buffs and actual warrior/weapon skills

I did both in Awakening.  I couldn't cast any other spells, but who needed them when I was a nigh invulnerable walking tide of destruction?

[Iosev]

I imagine one of the biggest challenges to implementing the Arcane Warrior in Dragon Age is finding synergy between the specialization and the rest of the mage's abilities.  Historically, the mage archetype in the DA series has been designed towards the unarmored caster, with long-ranged spells, abilities to control and maintain distance, and spells to increase protection in order to make up for wearing cloth.  In contrast, the Arcane Warrior was designed to be a heavily armored, close-ranged combatant.  The lack of synergy between the specialization and the archetype is seen with the lack of melee attacks and innate threat generation, coupled with abilities that likely weren't intended to be used with heavy armor (and thus making the character indestructible).

 

I think that several of the talent trees proposed in this thread have potential, but the problem is what the player is supposed to spend talent points on outside of the specialization, especially if the rest of the magic schools remain caster-oriented.  Does Bioware make more abilities in each magic school melee-oriented, at the expense of the ranged specializations, or does Bioware double their efforts and create two versions of each magic school in order to make the mage viable in both close and ranged-combat (i.e., make spells adapt to whether the player is wielding a staff with cloth or a weapon with armor)?  Obviously the latter is more desirable, but that is probably the more costly venture as well, in terms of resources.

 

Ultimately, if the Arcane Warrior does return, I would hope that the specialization truly focuses on melee-combat, instead of having to rely on casting sustainables and AoE spells for makeshift threat before being able to swing his or her weapon.

[AxeloftheKey]

I felt like a good way to make the AW work in DAII would've been to increase defenses and weapon damage, but remove the staff's ranged attack. Essentially, it forces you to get into the action and use your staff's melee attack, but your damage and defenses go up so you can handle it. This would just be a sustained mode that you could turn on and off as you needed it.

 

I don't know if this will still be a good solution in DA:I's system, but I could see it being cool.

[Mornmagor]

Lore wise arcane warrior is a silly spec. A well trained mage has weapons at his/her disposal far greater than simple steel and protection far greater than any armor or shield can offer. Lore wise carrying extra weight fatigues the mage and makes it harder t concentrate on said powerful spells, so why would any mage do this? They wouldn't, and it's just the game numbers than made specialization appealing, but from an analytic perspective the specialization makes zero sense. I don't want to see this spec personally. 

 

Sky is the limit for imagination.

 

A well trained mage can imbue their weapons or bolster their fortitude as well. The result could be similar. Carrying extra weight doesn't fatigue you if you can strengthen your body with training and magic.

 

A Mage would do this because of aesthetics, preferences, and an alternative way of playing.

 

If you think about lore the way you do only, then we should expect Mages to ROFLstomp everything and get posessed every five minutes.

 

Lore is there to help come up with new and interesting ideas, not limit them even more to "basic rogue, warrior and mage".

 

So no, i don't think it's silly at all.

 

And, also, not every Mage is the same, talent wise. Some people will never shoot that huge fireball that good, or that fast. They could be better at handling fast buffs and entering melee though, with proper protection.

 

Provided of course, that, specializations are special, and that with specializing somewhere, you become stronger there, and weaker elsewhere.

 

Bioware has hinted that specs will matter more, they have also hinted that it's possible we get to choose only one specialization for our characters.

[KainD]

Sky is the limit for imagination.

 

A well trained mage can imbue their weapons or bolster their fortitude as well. The result could be similar. Carrying extra weight doesn't fatigue you if you can strengthen your body with training and magic.

 

A Mage would do this because of aesthetics, preferences, and an alternative way of playing.

 

If you think about lore the way you do only, then we should expect Mages to ROFLstomp everything and get posessed every five minutes.

 

Lore is there to help come up with new and interesting ideas, not limit them even more to "basic rogue, warrior and mage".

 

So no, i don't think it's silly at all.

 

And, also, not every Mage is the same, talent wise. Some people will never shoot that huge fireball that good, or that fast. They could be better at handling fast buffs and entering melee though, with proper protection.

 

Provided of course, that, specializations are special, and that with specializing somewhere, you become stronger there, and weaker elsewhere.

 

Bioware has hinted that specs will matter more, they have also hinted that it's possible we get to choose only one specialization for our characters.

 

Strengthening body to carry weapons and armor that are inferior to well trained offense and defense that magic can provide, yes very helpful. 

To me an arcane warrior is like a Hulk with a pistol. ( over exaggeration but you get the idea. )  

Wasting and redirecting that power to be able to use equipment that is inferior to magic, I don't understand that. 

 

Also I like the idea of roflstomping and possessions. 

[Mornmagor]

An example :

 

You blast people with huge fireballs making everything explode.

 

OR

 

You become as poweful as the Hulk, and smash everyone, because magic.

 

Result is the same, feel is different.

 

You assume that armor is weaker than defensive magic, but we don't know how the armor system works.

 

There's a thing called lore and gameplay segregation i believe, if that is the correct term. Mages are presented extremely powerful and dangerous in the lore(so that Templars and Chantry can be justified lore wise), but that is not represented in game.

 

So, there is no such thing in game, as superior offensive magic compared to weapons, or superior defensive magic compared to armor.

 

In game, you're as powerful as a Warrior, or a Rogue, because balance needs to be there for classes to be viable, and not overshadowing one another.

 

Mages of Dragon Age are not D&D Wizards or Sorcerers. They're not people that only blast things away. They can be anything, like the equivalents of Wizards, Druids, Clerics etc.

 

And to represent that, they need more choices than Basic Mage that blasts people, and variations that blast them harder, or move them around, or use blood instead of mana.

 

You're trying to put your logic into a fantasy setting that we want to cater to aesthetics.

 

You perceive magic as something unbeatable, but there are people out there in fantasy games called hybrids, people that mix might and magic, and are perferctly viable and not inferior in any way.

 

Dragon Age has only 3 classes. Let's not make the already very few choices even less so, by making no variations at all.

 

The Gish type, like Warrior-Mages, or Clerics, or people that mix melee and spells in any way, are an extremely popular kind of playstyle. And there are good reasons. None of which involves how we perceive what magic should be like.

 

Also, bear in mind, that since the combat system is changing for this game, and Mages can already equip heavy armor, there is a chance you will see melee Mages without needing a specialization at all.

[KainD]

It's not that I oppose close combat and tankiness when it comes to mages, it's just that I would like to keep the feel of being a mage, so if there was a close combat specialization, instead of picking up sword and armor and being warrior 2.0 with sparkles. Why not make it something along the lines of making a spiritual avatar for example: 

 

 

That is going to hit all enemies in close combat.

Hawke summoned two spiritual hands to rip apart an Ogre ( and Arishok in the trailer ), why stop there? 

Or make actual magic weapons:

 

 

Why not make magic shields that are going to surround the caster and block incoming attacks while consuming mana while the mage stays in close combat? 

 

 

Etc. 

[n7stormrunner]

It's not that I oppose close combat and tankiness when it comes to mages, it's just that I would like to keep the feel of being a mage, so if there was a close combat specialization, instead of picking up sword and armor and being warrior 2.0 with sparkles. Why not make it something along the lines of making a spiritual avatar for example: 

 

 

That is going to hit all enemies in close combat.

Hawke summoned two spiritual hands to rip apart an Ogre ( and Arishok in the trailer ), why stop there? 

Or make actual magic weapons:

 

 

Why not make magic shields that are going to surround the caster and block incoming attacks while consuming mana while the mage stays in close combat? 

 

 

Etc. 

 

 

don't know the other two but the first is a bad choice since nero would be closer to a spirit warrior. that being should if the used something like that as a base for a reworked spirit warrior I wouldn't protest. also take a closer looks at shirmmering shield

[KainD]

don't know the other two but the first is a bad choice since nero would be closer to a spirit warrior. that being should if the used something like that as a base for a reworked spirit warrior I wouldn't protest. also take a closer looks at shirmmering shield

 

Sadly I can't find the exact picture of what I am talking about so I am showing the ones closest to what I mean. Basically imagine Nero standing and controlling the spiritual avatar, while not fighting himself. And imagine a bubble without the shield.

[n7stormrunner]

Sadly I can't find the exact picture of what I am talking about so I am showing the ones closest to what I mean. Basically imagine Nero standing and controlling the spiritual avatar, while not fighting himself. And imagine a bubble without the shield.

 

so a summoner? wouldn't protest a summoner but probably shouldn't be arcane warrior different character type. and can you rephrase your last sentence.

[KainD]

so a summoner? wouldn't protest a summoner but probably shouldn't be arcane warrior different character type. and can you rephrase your last sentence.

 

Not a summoner, more like mage having spiritual extensions of them with which they would fight, giant arms/claws spiritual swords.

Again, remember when Hawke ripped Arishok into pieces with his giant spiritual hands? Hawke also did the same with the Ogre if he was a mage in Varric's first story. 

Imagine if mages would fight with those spiritual extensions. 

I'm not sure how else I can rephrase. 

[The Baconer]

Strengthening body to carry weapons and armor that are inferior to well trained offense and defense that magic can provide, yes very helpful. 

To me an arcane warrior is like a Hulk with a pistol. ( over exaggeration but you get the idea. )  

Wasting and redirecting that power to be able to use equipment that is inferior to magic, I don't understand that. 

 

Also I like the idea of roflstomping and possessions. 

 

I think that mages who primarily use their magic to enhance their prowess in martial combat would have their own valuable niche on the battlefield. While magical protection wards and armor are possible (I used magical armor concept myself in the Defender tree, which would be available to more traditional mages if they were to choose the ability), I think we can safely say through various sources that they are not as effective as regular protection, at least not in the long term. We know through the lore that the "big nukes" are fairly taxing, and since mages of that kind shouldn't ideally be in close combat anyway it doesn't seem practical to constantly maintain an advanced protective ward at the same time. You could also consider that, especially now, being able to deal with Templars up close without being rendered useless would be very useful.

 

I will admit though, I do very much like the idea of creating weapons from the immaterial. I think I'll change the Slayer ability to accommodate this.