87 réponses à ce sujet

[BlueMagitek]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Bollcoks. Religion isn't evil.

Depending on how you interpret the lore, there are things that the Chantry claims or has done which are "anti-mage".  That doesn't make it evil, but whatever.

I'll make a list up.

Pros :
Brokered a compromise between the Inquisition and the Mage population, creating the Circle System.
Limits the use of mages in war
Limits the use of mages by nobility
Investigates alternatives to tranquility
Allows mage factions (fraternities, which is more political freedom than most of Thedas)
Protects mages from everyone else
Protects everyone else from mages

Cons :
Claims that the mages created the darkspawn (though there is evidence of this)
Annullments appear to be subjective (a checklist would help)
Not enough Templar oversight from the Seekers
Limit on mage travel (not that most people get to go wherever they want, but whatevs)

--

I think that's about it.

[North Light36]

I can understand Anders wanting to free the mages, but that is NOT what he did. In the end, he got a lot of mages killed - mages who wanted nothing to do with him. Look at Bethany, a mage raised free who wants nothing more to join the Circle and is happier when she's there.

Thanks to Anders, she's forced to fight for her life and, depending on your choices, could very well die because of him. What gave Anders the right to decide he and Justice were the only ones who knew the best way to "save" the mages?

What about the people in the chantry who were just there to say their prayers? Don't tell me there were no ordinary people in the entire chantry before Anders blew it up. I find it extremely unlikely and, if it is in fact the case, then it would be pure luck on Ander's party.

Blow up Meredith's office and the templar quarters? Still horrible, but I could see my Hawke not only understanding that but being willing to help. Blowing up the Chantry did NOTHING to solve the problem as a whole and likely convinced more people that mages are too dangerous to trust.

[Vilegrim]

North Light36 wrote...



Blow up Meredith's office and the templar quarters? Still horrible, but I could see my Hawke not only understanding that but being willing to help. Blowing up the Chantry did NOTHING to solve the problem as a whole and likely convinced more people that mages are too dangerous to trust.

Except that it took out the local political leadership, and the ideologues encouraging the Templars.  Which is huge.

[d-boy15]

Xilizhra wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Bollcoks. Religion isn't evil.

Religion is not inherently evil, but it's used for evil purposes quite often.

And in DA universe magic is not inherently evil, but it's used for evil purposes quite often.

Modifié par d-boy15, 16 juin 2013 - 02:07 .

[Ageless Face]

I understand the reasons for his actions, and I believe that in the end of the day, blowing up the chantry would do good for the mages. Like it or not, indulging for a war was pretty much the only way for the mages to be free. And for the templars and the mages to announce a war, one would have to do an extreme action like what Anders has done.

If Anders would have done his action purely for the sake of revenge, I would not have even slightly tried to justify his action. However I have no doubt that is not the reason, more like a bonus or something.

[berelinde]

In what way is this even remotely related to DA3?

[d-boy15]

North Light36 wrote...
Blow up Meredith's office and the templar quarters? Still horrible, but I could see my Hawke not only understanding that but being willing to help. Blowing up the Chantry did NOTHING to solve the problem as a whole and likely convinced more people that mages are too dangerous to trust.

That doesn't help his cause, blowing the Meredith skyhigh would only make everything in Kirkwall better
(or probably worse). By taking out the only one that stand between them and give Meredith a reason to
slaughter all mage she always want, it's will cause all out war.

For me, Ander didn't really care about mage as he claimed, the only thing he care is what he want not
mages want.

Modifié par d-boy15, 16 juin 2013 - 02:18 .

[billy the squid]

Vilegrim wrote...

It's called 'collateral damage'. It happens in a war, he launched a near perfect decapitation strike (and with Hawke's help) finished the job, leaving the Chantry, Templar Order and Circle leaderless and in chaos.

Allowing the rebellion to start against disorganised foes and win.

Text book.

It had been made clear that  the Templars where never going to stop, that sooner rather than later the mages would be annihilated.  As a first strike it was near perfect.

It wasn't perfect, it was mind numbingly stupid and gave the Templar order the perfect reason to Annul the Circleand grow more powerful.

His bomb didn't kill the Knight Commander, the Knight Captain, nor the First Enchanter, tactically he achieved absolutely nothing. 

The bomb didn't disorganise anything. Lord Seeker Lambert still sceded from the Nevarran accords, the Templar order as the militant arm of the Chantry doesn't rely on it for it's equipment, training or recruitment. Only Lyrium. And without the Seekers and Templars to enforce that how is the Chantry going to have any control over it?

They couldn't even finish the job in Kirkwall, let alone anywhere else in Thedas, or the Templar order wouldn't have mobilised en mass, without the Chantry to constrain them and wouldn't have the mages besiged in their fortress. 

[Ageless Face]

d-boy15 wrote...
For me, Ander didn't really care about mage as he claimed, the only thing he care is what he want not
mages want.

Really? Because Anders doesn't seem selfish at all to me, not throughout the game and not by blowing out the chantry. Causing a war is the only means to lead mages to fight for their freedom. Why else would Anders want to cause it?

Modifié par HagarIshay, 16 juin 2013 - 02:24 .

[billy the squid]

Vilegrim wrote...

North Light36 wrote...



Blow up Meredith's office and the templar quarters? Still horrible, but I could see my Hawke not only understanding that but being willing to help. Blowing up the Chantry did NOTHING to solve the problem as a whole and likely convinced more people that mages are too dangerous to trust.

Except that it took out the local political leadership, and the ideologues encouraging the Templars.  Which is huge.

No it's not, the Grand Cleric is a puppet. She has no real power nor does she govern the internal structure and organisation of the Templars. She is a priest. The Templars are a Military Order. The Chantry does not govern the Templars, other than having symbolic control. If they had any say, then Lord Seeker Lambert wouldn't have walked away with the Templar and Seeker Orders. 

This is the point. The Chantry convinced the Inqusition to join them, and stop hunting and exterminating Mages across Thedas. Anders move and the later manipulation and drives by the Libertareans, just let the Inquisition loose again. Which apparantly according to the Codex, was terrifying. 

Think the Mages had it bad now? 

[d-boy15]

HagarIshay wrote...

d-boy15 wrote...
For me, Ander didn't really care about mage as he claimed, the only thing he care is what he want not
mages want.

Really? Because Anders doesn't seem selfish at all to me. In fact causing a war is tue means to lead mages to freedom. Why else would Anders want to cause it?

There's a mage who want to be part of circle, a mage who didn't want to risk their life in war, mage who want to go
with diplomatic approach. Who give Anders right to choose for them? Just becasue he think it's right doesn't mean all mages have to share his idea.

Also, he hypocrite in this one. If Anders ask who give the right for Templar to imprison Mage then who give him the right to choose for Mage? He claimed he fight for freedom but he also take Mage freedom. 

[Nightdragon8]

KainD wrote...

Nightdragon8 wrote...

Creating an act of Terrorism by a Mage no less is completely counter productive, and in fact Hurts the mages cause. And only increases the fear of mages, which again doesn't help the cause AT ALL.

Better to be feared and free than be feared and be imprisoned. 

But really mages need to wake up and stop these silly atempts at reasoning with mundanes. War is good, what every supporter of the circle system needs is not a good argument but a fireball in the face. 

YAY ditctorship HERE WE COME!!!

Or in Lore Trevintor empire "REBORN"

hate to say it, but people with that much fear will end up getting a knife to the back. Cause I for one will be the one to do the stabbing.

Freedom for the Mage Opptions to the masses.

The cost of Freedom should NEVER cost others theirs.

And yes Reiligon can be evil, and don't give me this "oh but that is a "cult" not a reiligon", hate to break it to you all, but all "Reiligons" ALL started off as "cult" status.

[Who is that Masked Man]

billy the squid wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

North Light36 wrote...



Blow up Meredith's office and the templar quarters? Still horrible, but I could see my Hawke not only understanding that but being willing to help. Blowing up the Chantry did NOTHING to solve the problem as a whole and likely convinced more people that mages are too dangerous to trust.

Except that it took out the local political leadership, and the ideologues encouraging the Templars.  Which is huge.

No it's not, the Grand Cleric is a puppet. She has no real power nor does she govern the internal structure and organisation of the Templars. She is a priest. The Templars are a Military Order. The Chantry does not govern the Templars, other than having symbolic control. If they had any say, then Lord Seeker Lambert wouldn't have walked away with the Templar and Seeker Orders. 

This is the point. The Chantry convinced the Inqusition to join them, and stop hunting and exterminating Mages across Thedas. Anders move and the later manipulation and drives by the Libertareans, just let the Inquisition loose again. Which apparantly according to the Codex, was terrifying. 

Think the Mages had it bad now? 

From The World of Thedas: "Was theirs a reign of terror? Perhaps. But all evidence shows that they were just as vigilant in their protection of mages as they were of regular people. Any time they intervened, an ad hoc trial was convened to determine the guilty party. This even application of justice lead to their poor reputation, as the Seekers came down against every group at one time or another, their 'Inquisition' gaining notoriety as being on no one's side other than their own."

Sorry, there, billy! Your beloved mage-smiting Inquisiton got retconned.

Hope the templars enjoy that "even application of justice" as much as the mages do!

[Nightdragon8]

Who is that Masked Man wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

North Light36 wrote...



Blow up Meredith's office and the templar quarters? Still horrible, but I could see my Hawke not only understanding that but being willing to help. Blowing up the Chantry did NOTHING to solve the problem as a whole and likely convinced more people that mages are too dangerous to trust.

Except that it took out the local political leadership, and the ideologues encouraging the Templars.  Which is huge.

No it's not, the Grand Cleric is a puppet. She has no real power nor does she govern the internal structure and organisation of the Templars. She is a priest. The Templars are a Military Order. The Chantry does not govern the Templars, other than having symbolic control. If they had any say, then Lord Seeker Lambert wouldn't have walked away with the Templar and Seeker Orders. 

This is the point. The Chantry convinced the Inqusition to join them, and stop hunting and exterminating Mages across Thedas. Anders move and the later manipulation and drives by the Libertareans, just let the Inquisition loose again. Which apparantly according to the Codex, was terrifying. 

Think the Mages had it bad now? 

From The World of Thedas: "Was theirs a reign of terror? Perhaps. But all evidence shows that they were just as vigilant in their protection of mages as they were of regular people. Any time they intervened, an ad hoc trial was convened to determine the guilty party. This even application of justice lead to their poor reputation, as the Seekers came down against every group at one time or another, their 'Inquisition' gaining notoriety as being on no one's side other than their own."

Sorry, there, billy! Your beloved mage-smiting Inquisiton got retconned.

Hope the templars enjoy that "even application of justice" as much as the mages do!

hmm thats makes teh game sound fun =)

[Qyla]

HagarIshay wrote...

d-boy15 wrote...
For me, Ander didn't really care about mage as he claimed, the only thing he care is what he want not
mages want.

Really? Because Anders doesn't seem selfish at all to me, not throughout the game and not by blowing out the chantry. Causing a war is the only means to lead mages to fight for their freedom. Why else would Anders want to cause it?

He was. He he decided the fate of the one who were in that chantry, of the templars and mages as a whole. Who gave him that right? There were other ways, he just choose the easiest one.

[MWImexico]

d-boy15 wrote...

I'm all for mage freedom but not with Anders idea. What he do is drag everyone to war with him willingly or not.
If you ask who give Templar right to imprison mages then who gives Anders right to choose for Mages?

At least in Asunder the decision to go rebellion is come from voted and the one who deliver the final die is wise
mage who understand the conflict.

+1

With "the end justify the means" people can go very far.

And on that point, I think Aveline was right, sincerity doesn't justify everything.  

Plus, to put it simply, I think Ander is crazy by the end of act 3.

Hawke is blind and a bad friend.

Anyway, Kirkwall is full of crazy people, so that could explain everything, Hawke was in burnout, that's why he didn't payed attention.  

[North Light36]

Vilegrim wrote...

North Light36 wrote...



Blow up Meredith's office and the templar quarters? Still horrible, but I could see my Hawke not only understanding that but being willing to help. Blowing up the Chantry did NOTHING to solve the problem as a whole and likely convinced more people that mages are too dangerous to trust.

Except that it took out the local political leadership, and the ideologues encouraging the Templars.  Which is huge.

In a single city. Wow.

Last I checked, Kirkwall wasn't the entire world.

I could assassinate my local goverment leader. Wouldn't stop the head of the Australian Libral Party being a sexist jerk who, if he gets into power, will make life in Australia a misery.

Anders killed an old woman with no real power that we saw. Not impressive.

[Qyla]

I've seen Rivalmance video that shows that in the end Justice has turned into Vengance and that took control of Anders. He is just one step from becoming a complete abomination

[billy the squid]

Who is that Masked Man wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

North Light36 wrote...



Blow up Meredith's office and the templar quarters? Still horrible, but I could see my Hawke not only understanding that but being willing to help. Blowing up the Chantry did NOTHING to solve the problem as a whole and likely convinced more people that mages are too dangerous to trust.

Except that it took out the local political leadership, and the ideologues encouraging the Templars.  Which is huge.

No it's not, the Grand Cleric is a puppet. She has no real power nor does she govern the internal structure and organisation of the Templars. She is a priest. The Templars are a Military Order. The Chantry does not govern the Templars, other than having symbolic control. If they had any say, then Lord Seeker Lambert wouldn't have walked away with the Templar and Seeker Orders. 

This is the point. The Chantry convinced the Inqusition to join them, and stop hunting and exterminating Mages across Thedas. Anders move and the later manipulation and drives by the Libertareans, just let the Inquisition loose again. Which apparantly according to the Codex, was terrifying. 

Think the Mages had it bad now? 

From The World of Thedas: "Was theirs a reign of terror? Perhaps. But all evidence shows that they were just as vigilant in their protection of mages as they were of regular people. Any time they intervened, an ad hoc trial was convened to determine the guilty party. This even application of justice lead to their poor reputation, as the Seekers came down against every group at one time or another, their 'Inquisition' gaining notoriety as being on no one's side other than their own."

Sorry, there, billy! Your beloved mage-smiting Inquisiton got retconned.

Hope the templars enjoy that "even application of justice" as much as the mages do!

The Inquisition are the Templar Order and the Seekers, you do realise that right? The became the militant arm of the Chantry after the Nevarran accords ie: the Templars and the Seekers. 

The Templars won't be enjoying anything considering they are one and the same. The Inquisition, hunted malefecars and Mages who abused their power across Thedas, as well as cultists and political factions who were using magic to further their own goals, endangering common people etc. Hence the Inquisition. The templars didn't go about killing mages because they were Mages, or the Circles wouldn't exist. Neither did the inquisition, what they would do is kill anyone who was considered dangerous or at risk. What do you think is going to happen in an open conflict with Mages? They'd just be left alone? Or are they going to be dealt with by the Inquisition, which is more than likely going to be centred on the large number of Templars and Seekers that aligned with Lambert?

Even application of justice, meaning using magic to further your political aspirations, social standing and forbidden magic ends with people, mundane or magical, being in a tight spot with the inquisition. Do you tink having a noble family being declared tainted and executed would make the Inquisition anymore cuddly because it wasn't a mage specific issue? If it's magical it's under the preserve of the Inquisition to deal with, who aren't accountable to anyone not something re assuring. 

Modifié par billy the squid, 16 juin 2013 - 03:06 .

[Nightdragon8]

billy the squid wrote...

Who is that Masked Man wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

North Light36 wrote...



Blow up Meredith's office and the templar quarters? Still horrible, but I could see my Hawke not only understanding that but being willing to help. Blowing up the Chantry did NOTHING to solve the problem as a whole and likely convinced more people that mages are too dangerous to trust.

Except that it took out the local political leadership, and the ideologues encouraging the Templars.  Which is huge.

No it's not, the Grand Cleric is a puppet. She has no real power nor does she govern the internal structure and organisation of the Templars. She is a priest. The Templars are a Military Order. The Chantry does not govern the Templars, other than having symbolic control. If they had any say, then Lord Seeker Lambert wouldn't have walked away with the Templar and Seeker Orders. 

This is the point. The Chantry convinced the Inqusition to join them, and stop hunting and exterminating Mages across Thedas. Anders move and the later manipulation and drives by the Libertareans, just let the Inquisition loose again. Which apparantly according to the Codex, was terrifying. 

Think the Mages had it bad now? 

From The World of Thedas: "Was theirs a reign of terror? Perhaps. But all evidence shows that they were just as vigilant in their protection of mages as they were of regular people. Any time they intervened, an ad hoc trial was convened to determine the guilty party. This even application of justice lead to their poor reputation, as the Seekers came down against every group at one time or another, their 'Inquisition' gaining notoriety as being on no one's side other than their own."

Sorry, there, billy! Your beloved mage-smiting Inquisiton got retconned.

Hope the templars enjoy that "even application of justice" as much as the mages do!

The Inquisition are the Templar Order and the Seekers, you do realise that right? The became the militant arm of the Chantry after the Nevarran accords ie: the Templars and the Seekers. 

The Templars won't be enjoying anything considering they are one and the same. The Inquisition, hunted malefecars and Mages who abused their power across Thedas, as well as cultists and political factions who were using magic to further their own goals, endangering common people etc. Hence the Inquisition. The templars didn't go about killing mages because they were Mages, or the Circles wouldn't exist. Neither did the inquisition, what they would do is kill anyone who was considered dangerous or at risk. 

Even application of justice, meaning using magic to further your political aspirations, social standing and forbidden magic ends with people, mundane or magical, being in a tight spot with the inquisition. Do you tink having a noble family being declared tainted and executed would make the Inquisition anymore cuddly because it wasn't a mage specific issue? If it's magical it's under the preserve of the Inquisition to deal with, who aren't accountable to anyone not something re assuring. 

Would you mind citing your sorce Billy, just for the record. He is citing The World of Thedas, which is considering Canon for the world.

Also considering the fact that The World of Thedas, is newer, they have have Retcon what was said in the past. It happens.

And if you don't know what Retcon means then I suggest looking it up, it may clear up the misunderstanding.

Modifié par Nightdragon8, 16 juin 2013 - 03:08 .

[billy the squid]

Nightdragon8 wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Who is that Masked Man wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

North Light36 wrote...



Blow up Meredith's office and the templar quarters? Still horrible, but I could see my Hawke not only understanding that but being willing to help. Blowing up the Chantry did NOTHING to solve the problem as a whole and likely convinced more people that mages are too dangerous to trust.

Except that it took out the local political leadership, and the ideologues encouraging the Templars.  Which is huge.

No it's not, the Grand Cleric is a puppet. She has no real power nor does she govern the internal structure and organisation of the Templars. She is a priest. The Templars are a Military Order. The Chantry does not govern the Templars, other than having symbolic control. If they had any say, then Lord Seeker Lambert wouldn't have walked away with the Templar and Seeker Orders. 

This is the point. The Chantry convinced the Inqusition to join them, and stop hunting and exterminating Mages across Thedas. Anders move and the later manipulation and drives by the Libertareans, just let the Inquisition loose again. Which apparantly according to the Codex, was terrifying. 

Think the Mages had it bad now? 

From The World of Thedas: "Was theirs a reign of terror? Perhaps. But all evidence shows that they were just as vigilant in their protection of mages as they were of regular people. Any time they intervened, an ad hoc trial was convened to determine the guilty party. This even application of justice lead to their poor reputation, as the Seekers came down against every group at one time or another, their 'Inquisition' gaining notoriety as being on no one's side other than their own."

Sorry, there, billy! Your beloved mage-smiting Inquisiton got retconned.

Hope the templars enjoy that "even application of justice" as much as the mages do!

The Inquisition are the Templar Order and the Seekers, you do realise that right? The became the militant arm of the Chantry after the Nevarran accords ie: the Templars and the Seekers. 

The Templars won't be enjoying anything considering they are one and the same. The Inquisition, hunted malefecars and Mages who abused their power across Thedas, as well as cultists and political factions who were using magic to further their own goals, endangering common people etc. Hence the Inquisition. The templars didn't go about killing mages because they were Mages, or the Circles wouldn't exist. Neither did the inquisition, what they would do is kill anyone who was considered dangerous or at risk. 

Even application of justice, meaning using magic to further your political aspirations, social standing and forbidden magic ends with people, mundane or magical, being in a tight spot with the inquisition. Do you think having a noble family being declared tainted and executed would make the Inquisition anymore cuddly because it wasn't a mage specific issue? If it's magical it's under the preserve of the Inquisition to deal with, who aren't accountable to anyone not something re assuring. 

Would you mind citing your sorce Billy, just for the record. He is citing The World of Thedas, which is considering Canon for the world.

It's right from the in game codex. The formation of the Templars and Seekers, derived from Inquisition post Nevarran accords once they joined with the Chantry. And the FULL text from World of Thedas, not just that little snip that he provided.

Modifié par billy the squid, 16 juin 2013 - 03:19 .

[Vilegrim]

North Light36 wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

North Light36 wrote...



Blow up Meredith's office and the templar quarters? Still horrible, but I could see my Hawke not only understanding that but being willing to help. Blowing up the Chantry did NOTHING to solve the problem as a whole and likely convinced more people that mages are too dangerous to trust.

Except that it took out the local political leadership, and the ideologues encouraging the Templars.  Which is huge.

In a single city. Wow.

Last I checked, Kirkwall wasn't the entire world.

I could assassinate my local goverment leader. Wouldn't stop the head of the Australian Libral Party being a sexist jerk who, if he gets into power, will make life in Australia a misery.

Anders killed an old woman with no real power that we saw. Not impressive.

depends on your goal.  Long term?  Yes it was a gesture.  In Kirkwall right then?   It was huge, especially given Anders later actions (it you let him live) , taking out Meredith as well.  The Templars loose all local control, the Chantry Hierachy is in no postion to do anything either, the Viscount is already dead... BOOM,  Collapse of local order, rebellion is far more likely to succeed (as it did ).

One man taking out a political leader in an otherwise stable situation?  Doesn't accomplish a damn thing.  Take out political and military command and control in a situation where an uprising is de facto taking place (with the Mage undergorund being the clear example) and suddenly it is a total game changer, the rebels are no longer on the run, but against an enemy with no overall control (individual units may function just fine in their small AOO) , but with no higher authority, they can be defeated in detail. with a well coordinated enemy moving onto stage 3 of Guerilla war.

http://en.wikipedia....se_Maoist_model

That model of rebellion is seminal and it works.

Kirkwall then becomes THE model for other uprisings, high firepower, low endurance ambush and strike tactics against political and military 3C targets, by the first small cells, success leading onto wider support, increasing the tempo and power of operations, until a decapitation strike and full engagement with opposed field forces.

[billy the squid]

Here's the whole text not just the snippit that was provided.

THE FIRST INQUISITION , by Brother Genitivi.

The birth of the Chantry took place more than nine ages ago , and the mists of time have obscured what were once well known facts.It is commonly believed that the chantry alone created the templars and the circle of magi.Few recall that there was ever an Inquisition.

Those who do believe it predated the Chantry , hunting cultists and mages in a reign of terror that ended only upon its transformation into the Templar Order.This, however , is not quite the truth.

One must keep in mind the state of Thedas prior to the Chantry's creation.It was a world where the only source of order, the Tevinter Imperium,had fallen apart.
People blamed magic for the death of Andraste,the Blight, the terror they saw every day - and not without basis.Abominations and demons rampaged the countryside.No one was safe.

The Seekers of Truth were initially formed by disparate groups of men and women , determine to restore order because no one else would do what was necessary.The truth they sought, the question they tried to answer, was how to restore sanity in a world gone mad.

Was theirs a reign of terror? Perhaps.But all evidence shows they were just as vigilant in their protection of mages as they were of regular people.

Any time they intervened, an ad hoc trial was convened to determine the guilty party.This even application of justice led to their poor reputation, as the Seekers came down against every group at one time or another , their "inquisition" gaining notoriety as being on no one's side other than their own.

They believed themselves good people , however, and followers of the Maker's true commandments.This was never more evident than when they laid down their own banner in support of the fledgling Chantry.

They believe, with all their heart, that the Templar Order was the answer a desperate Thedas needed most in a terrible time.Ultimately ,the Inquisition was composed of independent idealists and not Chantry zealots, and that is the truth.

[Roninbarista]

I admired Anders. His sense of humor and determination to escape Ferelden's Circle impressed me. Sadly the merging with Justice complicated him, and turned him into a walking tragedy.

When Anders destroyed Kirkwall's Chantry, I was shocked, appalled. Granted a lot of people who believe in the chantry think that mages are cursed and show great contempt, bias, or fear of them, it doesn't make Anders right.

Well no Thedas has to live with this act, and there's a pissed off Sebastian who wants to stomp Kirkwall, and Anders (wonder if the Wardens would take him back). I really wanted to see how that played out.