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[Xilizhra]

They believe, with all their heart, that the Templar Order was the answer a desperate Thedas needed most in a terrible time.Ultimately ,the Inquisition was composed of independent idealists and not Chantry zealots, and that is the truth.

And under me, so shall they be again.

[Dova]

HagarIshay wrote...

I understand the reasons for his actions, and I believe that in the end of the day, blowing up the chantry would do good for the mages. Like it or not, indulging for a war was pretty much the only way for the mages to be free. And for the templars and the mages to announce a war, one would have to do an extreme action like what Anders has done.

If Anders would have done his action purely for the sake of revenge, I would not have even slightly tried to justify his action. However I have no doubt that is not the reason, more like a bonus or something.

This, really. If it was all on vengence/revenge, I wouldn't stand up for Anders and be in so many of the debates about him. 

Anyway I believe Anders did what was right, like it or not in the lore. Like I've said before many times, Anders did fuel the war, he brought it That day, instead of next week, or a month. He just shortened up the time, and took out the option of any type of peace.  The war, was always going to be "there" just not acted upon until Meredith invoked the Right on Orsino and the Kirkwall Tower, for she believed he was hiding blood mages. While the Right was probably going to be refused nontheless on Orsino, when Anders destroyed the Chantry she blamed all Mages. Thus Meredith had a bigger part in the War. Everyone loves to blame Anders though. <_<

[Qyla]

by Brother Genitivi

[Who is that Masked Man]

billy the squid wrote...

Who is that Masked Man wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

North Light36 wrote...



Blow up Meredith's office and the templar quarters? Still horrible, but I could see my Hawke not only understanding that but being willing to help. Blowing up the Chantry did NOTHING to solve the problem as a whole and likely convinced more people that mages are too dangerous to trust.

Except that it took out the local political leadership, and the ideologues encouraging the Templars.  Which is huge.

No it's not, the Grand Cleric is a puppet. She has no real power nor does she govern the internal structure and organisation of the Templars. She is a priest. The Templars are a Military Order. The Chantry does not govern the Templars, other than having symbolic control. If they had any say, then Lord Seeker Lambert wouldn't have walked away with the Templar and Seeker Orders. 

This is the point. The Chantry convinced the Inqusition to join them, and stop hunting and exterminating Mages across Thedas. Anders move and the later manipulation and drives by the Libertareans, just let the Inquisition loose again. Which apparantly according to the Codex, was terrifying. 

Think the Mages had it bad now? 

From The World of Thedas: "Was theirs a reign of terror? Perhaps. But all evidence shows that they were just as vigilant in their protection of mages as they were of regular people. Any time they intervened, an ad hoc trial was convened to determine the guilty party. This even application of justice lead to their poor reputation, as the Seekers came down against every group at one time or another, their 'Inquisition' gaining notoriety as being on no one's side other than their own."

Sorry, there, billy! Your beloved mage-smiting Inquisiton got retconned.

Hope the templars enjoy that "even application of justice" as much as the mages do!

The Inquisition are the Templar Order and the Seekers, you do realise that right? The became the militant arm of the Chantry after the Nevarran accords ie: the Templars and the Seekers. 

The Templars won't be enjoying anything considering they are one and the same. The Inquisition, hunted malefecars and Mages who abused their power across Thedas, as well as cultists and political factions who were using magic to further their own goals, endangering common people etc. Hence the Inquisition. The templars didn't go about killing mages because they were Mages, or the Circles wouldn't exist. Neither did the inquisition, what they would do is kill anyone who was considered dangerous or at risk. 

Even application of justice, meaning using magic to further your political aspirations, social standing and forbidden magic ends with people, mundane or magical, being in a tight spot with the inquisition. Do you tink having a noble family being declared tainted and executed would make the Inquisition anymore cuddly because it wasn't a mage specific issue? If it's magical it's under the preserve of the Inquisition to deal with, who aren't accountable to anyone not something re assuring. 

Eexcept that you were doing quite a lot of crowing about how bad the Inquisition will be for mages, and, gosh, it says right there that the Inquisition worked just as hard to protect mages as they did to protect regular people. Ooh, sounds really scary for the mages!

And it says that they came down on every group... EVERY GROUP. Doesn't say anything about them only targetting magic users or people who used magic to support their political agenda. It does say, also in The World of Thedas, that the Inquisition was composed of "independent idealists and not Chantry zealots." 

And let us not forget that the Seekers were supposed to be overseeing the templars and keeping them in line. Not every Seeker was a Lambert. Just ask Leliana.

Oh, I'm very sure the Inquisition can be a reign of terror against mages. It's a Bioware game. And as such, they have left the door wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide open to an Inquisition that smites the templars just as hard, and just as often.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilizhra wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Bollcoks. Religion isn't evil.

Religion is not inherently evil, but it's used for evil purposes quite often.

Name one thing that cannot be used for evil purposes....

[MichalS7]

Hey! Everybody hate Anders for killing innocents but didn't you release Sten despite the fact that he has murdered whole family?

[Plaintiff]

KproTM wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

No it's not. All manner of evil is committed by people "fighting for what they believed in". Meredith fought for what she believed in, but that's not "good enough" for me to support her, because I don't consider her cause to be just in the first place.

"Evil". What a petty word to connotate an opinion of disagreement.

It's a turn of phrase.

[billy the squid]

Who is that Masked Man wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Who is that Masked Man wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

North Light36 wrote...



Blow up Meredith's office and the templar quarters? Still horrible, but I could see my Hawke not only understanding that but being willing to help. Blowing up the Chantry did NOTHING to solve the problem as a whole and likely convinced more people that mages are too dangerous to trust.

Except that it took out the local political leadership, and the ideologues encouraging the Templars.  Which is huge.

No it's not, the Grand Cleric is a puppet. She has no real power nor does she govern the internal structure and organisation of the Templars. She is a priest. The Templars are a Military Order. The Chantry does not govern the Templars, other than having symbolic control. If they had any say, then Lord Seeker Lambert wouldn't have walked away with the Templar and Seeker Orders. 

This is the point. The Chantry convinced the Inqusition to join them, and stop hunting and exterminating Mages across Thedas. Anders move and the later manipulation and drives by the Libertareans, just let the Inquisition loose again. Which apparantly according to the Codex, was terrifying. 

Think the Mages had it bad now? 

From The World of Thedas: "Was theirs a reign of terror? Perhaps. But all evidence shows that they were just as vigilant in their protection of mages as they were of regular people. Any time they intervened, an ad hoc trial was convened to determine the guilty party. This even application of justice lead to their poor reputation, as the Seekers came down against every group at one time or another, their 'Inquisition' gaining notoriety as being on no one's side other than their own."

Sorry, there, billy! Your beloved mage-smiting Inquisiton got retconned.

Hope the templars enjoy that "even application of justice" as much as the mages do!

The Inquisition are the Templar Order and the Seekers, you do realise that right? The became the militant arm of the Chantry after the Nevarran accords ie: the Templars and the Seekers. 

The Templars won't be enjoying anything considering they are one and the same. The Inquisition, hunted malefecars and Mages who abused their power across Thedas, as well as cultists and political factions who were using magic to further their own goals, endangering common people etc. Hence the Inquisition. The templars didn't go about killing mages because they were Mages, or the Circles wouldn't exist. Neither did the inquisition, what they would do is kill anyone who was considered dangerous or at risk. 

Even application of justice, meaning using magic to further your political aspirations, social standing and forbidden magic ends with people, mundane or magical, being in a tight spot with the inquisition. Do you tink having a noble family being declared tainted and executed would make the Inquisition anymore cuddly because it wasn't a mage specific issue? If it's magical it's under the preserve of the Inquisition to deal with, who aren't accountable to anyone not something re assuring. 

Eexcept that you were doing quite a lot of crowing about how bad the Inquisition will be for mages, and, gosh, it says right there that the Inquisition worked just as hard to protect mages as they did to protect regular people. Ooh, sounds really scary for the mages!

And it says that they came down on every group... EVERY GROUP. Doesn't say anything about them only targetting magic users or people who used magic to support their political agenda. It does say, also in The World of Thedas, that the Inquisition was composed of "independent idealists and not Chantry zealots." 

And let us not forget that the Seekers were supposed to be overseeing the templars and keeping them in line. Not every Seeker was a Lambert. Just ask Leliana.

Oh, I'm very sure the Inquisition can be a reign of terror against mages. It's a Bioware game. And as such, they have left the door wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide open to an Inquisition that smites the templars just as hard, and just as often.

And look at the context of when the Inquisition was formed. If history teaches anything it is that ad hoc trials are as fair as the Inquisitor that conviened it, as they determine what is just. And no, Inquisitors came down on Mages, magic associated mundanes, cultists (Old God worshipers?) and heretics. So they were to determined to establish order after the collapse of Tevinter and the issues of loose mages, blood mages, demons etc.

My point is, that Pro-Mage supporters have said that this was a push for freedom, that the Circle was awful, the Templars where oppressive etc. Really?

Considering the parallels between the post collapse of the Tevinter Imperium and now, there is nothing to indicate that the Inquisition, perhaps reborn around the player, won't ruthlessly crush the mage rebellion and any other associated factions. The old Inquisition after all, became the Templar Order, who are going to be the main military force, and the Seekers. I doubt every Seeker would become side with Lambert, but most Templars would, and they out number the Seekers by a wide margin by the looks of the Order's internal structure.

We already know that the Inquisitor will be the player, and judging by the rings and the info there are origins.So far the rings identified Circle Mage, Templar, Seeker, Tevinter Magister? The creation of the War let the open ended game determine whether the new Inquisitor will crush the mage rebellion or not, which is quite possible at this point. 

[Who is that Masked Man]

billy the squid wrote...

Who is that Masked Man wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Who is that Masked Man wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

North Light36 wrote...



Blow up Meredith's office and the templar quarters? Still horrible, but I could see my Hawke not only understanding that but being willing to help. Blowing up the Chantry did NOTHING to solve the problem as a whole and likely convinced more people that mages are too dangerous to trust.

Except that it took out the local political leadership, and the ideologues encouraging the Templars.  Which is huge.

No it's not, the Grand Cleric is a puppet. She has no real power nor does she govern the internal structure and organisation of the Templars. She is a priest. The Templars are a Military Order. The Chantry does not govern the Templars, other than having symbolic control. If they had any say, then Lord Seeker Lambert wouldn't have walked away with the Templar and Seeker Orders. 

This is the point. The Chantry convinced the Inqusition to join them, and stop hunting and exterminating Mages across Thedas. Anders move and the later manipulation and drives by the Libertareans, just let the Inquisition loose again. Which apparantly according to the Codex, was terrifying. 

Think the Mages had it bad now? 

From The World of Thedas: "Was theirs a reign of terror? Perhaps. But all evidence shows that they were just as vigilant in their protection of mages as they were of regular people. Any time they intervened, an ad hoc trial was convened to determine the guilty party. This even application of justice lead to their poor reputation, as the Seekers came down against every group at one time or another, their 'Inquisition' gaining notoriety as being on no one's side other than their own."

Sorry, there, billy! Your beloved mage-smiting Inquisiton got retconned.

Hope the templars enjoy that "even application of justice" as much as the mages do!

The Inquisition are the Templar Order and the Seekers, you do realise that right? The became the militant arm of the Chantry after the Nevarran accords ie: the Templars and the Seekers. 

The Templars won't be enjoying anything considering they are one and the same. The Inquisition, hunted malefecars and Mages who abused their power across Thedas, as well as cultists and political factions who were using magic to further their own goals, endangering common people etc. Hence the Inquisition. The templars didn't go about killing mages because they were Mages, or the Circles wouldn't exist. Neither did the inquisition, what they would do is kill anyone who was considered dangerous or at risk. 

Even application of justice, meaning using magic to further your political aspirations, social standing and forbidden magic ends with people, mundane or magical, being in a tight spot with the inquisition. Do you tink having a noble family being declared tainted and executed would make the Inquisition anymore cuddly because it wasn't a mage specific issue? If it's magical it's under the preserve of the Inquisition to deal with, who aren't accountable to anyone not something re assuring. 

Eexcept that you were doing quite a lot of crowing about how bad the Inquisition will be for mages, and, gosh, it says right there that the Inquisition worked just as hard to protect mages as they did to protect regular people. Ooh, sounds really scary for the mages!

And it says that they came down on every group... EVERY GROUP. Doesn't say anything about them only targetting magic users or people who used magic to support their political agenda. It does say, also in The World of Thedas, that the Inquisition was composed of "independent idealists and not Chantry zealots." 

And let us not forget that the Seekers were supposed to be overseeing the templars and keeping them in line. Not every Seeker was a Lambert. Just ask Leliana.

Oh, I'm very sure the Inquisition can be a reign of terror against mages. It's a Bioware game. And as such, they have left the door wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide open to an Inquisition that smites the templars just as hard, and just as often.

And look at the context of when the Inquisition was formed. If history teaches anything it is that ad hoc trials are as fair as the Inquisitor that conviened it, as they determine what is just. And no, Inquisitors came down on Mages, magic associated mundanes, cultists (Old God worshipers?) and heretics. So they were to determined to establish order after the collapse of Tevinter and the issues of loose mages, blood mages, demons etc.

My point is, that Pro-Mage supporters have said that this was a push for freedom, that the Circle was awful, the Templars where oppressive etc. Really?

Considering the parallels between the post collapse of the Tevinter Imperium and now, there is nothing to indicate that the Inquisition, perhaps reborn around the player, won't ruthlessly crush the mage rebellion and any other associated factions. The old Inquisition after all, became the Templar Order, who are going to be the main military force, and the Seekers. I doubt every Seeker would become side with Lambert, but most Templars would, and they out number the Seekers by a wide margin by the looks of the Order's internal structure.

We already know that the Inquisitor will be the player, and judging by the rings and the info there are origins.So far the rings identified Circle Mage, Templar, Seeker, Tevinter Magister? The creation of the War let the open ended game determine whether the new Inquisitor will crush the mage rebellion or not, which is quite possible at this point. 

And once again, the lore says that the Inquisition were just as vigilant in their protection of mages as they were in their protection of regular people.

Now, do mages need protection from other mages, "magic associated mundanes," cultists and heretics, just as regular civilians do? Yes. Do mages also need protection against fearful, mage-lynching peasants, and self righteous twits who want to put all mages to the sword? Also yes!

With that in mind, does the World of Thedas entry say the Inquisition limited their activities to people or groups (and demons and abominations) who were using magic? Despite your insistance to the contrary, no, it does not say that. It says they came down against "every group," not "every group that used magical powers."

Now, then. You came in here bragging about that codex entry that talks about how "the inquisition once hunted heretics and cultists as well as mages, and their reign of terror ended only with the inception of the Circle of magi." You went on about that several times. I brought up the World of Thedas to point out, sorry dude, that wasn't the final word on the Inquisition. It has since been retconned to be less templar-exclusive and more mage-friendly. 

And so, just assume that every time you say "heretics and cultists as well as mages," I come back with "just as vigilant in their protection of mages... even application of justice... came down against every group... independent idealists and not Chantry zealots."

Also remember that the lore I keep harping on was written after the lore you keep harping on, and that my lore says that your lore "is not quite the truth." Then just assume we continued having this same debate forever, because I'm done here.

Anyway, now we've both said that the direction of the Inquisition in the new game, along with who is getting smited, will probably be left up to the player, so it seems there is at least one thing we agree on. And on that happy note, I bid you good day.

Modifié par Who is that Masked Man, 16 juin 2013 - 06:17 .

[Vilegrim]

Who is that Masked Man wrote...


Eexcept that you were doing quite a lot of crowing about how bad the Inquisition will be for mages, and, gosh, it says right there that the Inquisition worked just as hard to protect mages as they did to protect regular people. Ooh, sounds really scary for the mages!

That was written by Brother Genitivi...of the Chantry, who is hardly going to say that 'yea the inquisition where mass murdering psychopaths who massively benefited us and got rewarded with official license'

[Jedi Master of Orion]

MichalS7 wrote...

Hey! Everybody hate Anders for killing innocents but didn't you release Sten despite the fact that he has murdered whole family?

Of course not. That monster stayed in the cage where he belonged until darkspawn ripped him to shreds. Unless he survived I guess, but I sure didn't let him out. Anders only gets slightly more mercy from my collective Hawkes thus far because they used to be friends, but I usually kill him.

HagarIshay wrote...

d-boy15 wrote...
For me, Ander didn't really care about mage as he claimed, the only thing he care is what he want not
mages want.

Really?
Because Anders doesn't seem selfish at all to me, not throughout the
game and not by blowing out the chantry. Causing a war is the only means
to lead mages to fight for their freedom. Why else would Anders want to
cause it?

I think it's sort of both that are the case. All he cares about is what he thinks is best for mages. He doesn't care what anyone else wants or thinks of his plans, including the mages themselves. Many mages don't support his plan to start a war to free mages. He does't care. He considers them all defeatist, cowardly, complacent or otherwise wrong. I imagine almost all the mages  in the gallows disapproved of what he did because they didn't want to be fighting for their lives that day. But he considers it for the their own good, at least in the big picture.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 17 juin 2013 - 11:52 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

ashesandwine wrote...
I would give Anders' supporters more credits if you guys would stop trying to justify his action. He fought for what he believed in, made no excuses for it, and he was ready to die for it. And that is good enough. But you guys act as though his action was heroic and should be celebrated for.

Not me!  Anders is one of my favorite characters ever, in any medium, but I think a lot of his actions in DA2 are morally reprehensible, no matter how fervently he believes.  To top it off, he's a terrible boyfriend to Hawke regardless of romance path and a giant **** to anyone who doesn't agree with him.  I love and hate him in equal measure.

The most vocal and fervent fans are not necessarily the voice of the majority, here or anywhere else on BSN.  If you asked around the Anders thread when it was crazy active after the release of DA2, most of the folks posting there didn't support terrorism against little old ladies   It's perfectly possible to love a character and want to see more of him without condoning the stuff he does.

[Chanda]

berelinde wrote...

In what way is this even remotely related to DA3?

It's not. That's why it's in the DA2 Companions forum.