290 réponses à ce sujet

[Yalision]

Loghain living or dying is one of those choices almost on par with the OGB to me. Having him alive should be important enough to warrant some kind of import response and consequence, for better or worse. In a time of war, I would assume having him around should be a massive boon to those who kept him alive.

[Nightwing99]

if Loghain was Convinced that there is no way to win the battle I'm sure Duncan is a reasonable man , and if  Loghain to convince him Duncan can persuade the King

Modifié par Nightwing99, 17 juin 2013 - 05:09 .

[TEWR]

Melca36 wrote...

Cyrahzax wrote...

Paranoia? About that massive empire that used own his homeland? The one that gleefully employs rape-knights? The one he fought tooth and nail to expunge?

He needed to MOVE on. It was 30 years since the Rebellion. I wonder how stagnnant the Ferelden economy was because of people not being able to move forward.

They sold Elves like cattle for no other reason then for the lulz, torched homes, murdered people, raped women (including the man's mother), killed Loghain's father and Mabari, and in the case of the Baroness took the people under her care as blood slaves to fulfill her vain desire to remain youthful.

It's going to be hard to just "let go" of all of that. A nation that engaged in slavery, murder, rape, and blood magic to the citizens of another nation is not just a little  scrape in diplomatic relations. That's taking a .50 caliber rifle to an  old man.

Orlais lied about how many troops they were sending. They told Loghain and Cailan four legions of chevaliers were on their way, yet Riordan says the Wardens were bringing with them two dozen divisions of cavalry (a legion is a smaller military unit then a division).

Beyond that, the fact that half of Orlais has its eyes set on reclaiming Ferelden kinda proves the man right.

Christ, it's hard for a person to move on regarding a country when that same country has repeatedly taken over nations under the pretense of "saving them" and committed countless atrocities. They come in, but they never leave -- like roaches or that unwanted roommate.

Nevarra, Kirkwall, and the Anderfels attest to this. It took rebellions from these nations to regain their autonomy.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 17 juin 2013 - 05:31 .

[TEWR]

Nightwing99 wrote...

if Loghain was Convinced that there is no way to win the battle I'm sure Duncan is a reasonable man , and if  Loghain to convince him Duncan can persuade the King

First, Loghain wasn't convinced the battle was unwinnable until during the battle itself, when he could see just enough of the events that were going on to make out its course: Cailan's charge out of a defendable position, the loss of Mabari troops almost immediately because of Cailan's sending them out, the lack of using arrows consistently for as long as possible, the army's cracking under pressure, the horde's never ending stream coming from the Wilds, and the signal beacon not only arriving too late as they only had an hour to light it but also at the wrong time as it was supposed to be lit when all of the Darkspawn were committed to the battlefield.

Furthermore, Duncan knew that any battle could go awry yet had all of his men in the valley instead of having a few senior Wardens with Loghain incase the battle did indeed go wrong. Duncan failed to petition the Dwarves for aid, ask the nomadic Elves to spread word of the Blight to other nations (or maybe other clans), etc. His only good point was pressing the issue of needing more Mages, but even then I find him to not really have done his duty well enough in that regard. Aside from that, he doesn't really hold true to the "whatever it takes" mantra Wardens abide by as he could've and should've taken Loghain and Cailan aside and told them in a confidential meeting certain Warden secrets that would lend a far better chance of being taken seriously.

Loghain and Cailan were both in the dark about why the Wardens were necessary.

[jessielou]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

They sold Elves like cattle, torched homes, murdered people,
raped women (including the man's mother), killed Loghain's father and Mabari, and in the case of the
Baroness took the people under her care as blood slaves to fulfill her
vain desire to remain youthful.

I'm not saying you're at all wrong about Orlais, but these particular examples sort of make Loghain seem worse to me.  If these are the crimes that drove him, it seems fairly twisted to me that he allowed himself to be driven to the exact same crimes.  It's sort of like saying, "This stuff is bad when you do it to MY people.  But otherwise, it's perfectly acceptable."

[Yalision]

jessielou wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

They sold Elves like cattle, torched homes, murdered people,
raped women (including the man's mother), killed Loghain's father and Mabari, and in the case of the
Baroness took the people under her care as blood slaves to fulfill her
vain desire to remain youthful.

I'm not saying you're at all wrong about Orlais, but these particular examples sort of make Loghain seem worse to me.  If these are the crimes that drove him, it seems fairly twisted to me that he allowed himself to be driven to the exact same crimes.  It's sort of like saying, "This stuff is bad when you do it to MY people.  But otherwise, it's perfectly acceptable."

He was obviously acting out of desperation and paranoia. Nothing can justify his atrocities, but in his mind, they were all necessary to preserve Ferelden. Also, he was right to some extent. If he hadn't pulled back he would have died and so would his men - less able bodies to face the Darkspawn. I also think he was right about the Orlesions. Cailan was too gullible, delusional and susceptible to the whims of the the empress. Without Loghain's men having survived, Ferelden may well have been lost even with all the armies gathered.

[TEWR]

jessielou wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

They sold Elves like cattle, torched homes, murdered people,
raped women (including the man's mother), killed Loghain's father and Mabari, and in the case of the
Baroness took the people under her care as blood slaves to fulfill her
vain desire to remain youthful.

I'm not saying you're at all wrong about Orlais, but these particular examples sort of make Loghain seem worse to me.  If these are the crimes that drove him, it seems fairly twisted to me that he allowed himself to be driven to the exact same crimes.  It's sort of like saying, "This stuff is bad when you do it to MY people.  But otherwise, it's perfectly acceptable."

I edited my post to note a very crucial difference between Orlais' atrocities and Loghain's. Orlais did it for the lulz. Loghain actually had legitimate reasons for why he did these things (which does not justify slavery, but it does cast an important light over it that must be considered when discussing it).

Firstly, he never wanted to fight his own people or destroy their land. But the Bannorn chose to prioritize politics over uniting under his banner temporarily, and then instigated a Civil War. So Loghain was forced to fight his own people.

Secondly, he does not actually murder people. You can hear from a few rumor sources that he's making it a point to arrest the people opposing him. He does not kill lords and ladies out of hand, and the only time he makes it a point to kill people is in the actual war itself. IIRC, however, some of the people fighting under his banner elected to go a more vengeful route to people that opposed Loghain (which doesn't mean he ordered them to do it.)

Neither Loghain nor his men rape anyone, so that's not an atrocity committed by his hand. Same thing with the Baroness schtick.

As for the slavery, that wouldn't have been necessary if A) the Bannorn hadn't started the Civil War or the Circle had allied with Loghain, as they carry with them the Lucrosians and the Formari (a fraternity of businessmen and a sect of craftsmen respectively, who could garner enough wealth to fund the war effort).

Finally, if you talk to Loghain his intention vis-a-vis the slavery thing was that while horrible, it was necessary. Elves would be alive instead of dying without hope in the Alienage at Darkspawn hands (even in a twisted fashion), the war chest would be filled, and when the war chest was filled completely he would see to it that after the army was outfitted the remaining Elves of the Alienage would be similarly geared up.

When the Warden stopped the slavery, a few dozen Elves were shipped out and the treasury was a 1/3 of the way full (dialogue with Loghain). Now, I don't justify it, but I do consider all the things that factor into the slavery issue because I refuse to whittle the Loghain issue down to some arbitrary notion of "good and evil" -- because no such thing exists in war.

[In Exile]

Yalision wrote...
Also, he was right to some extent. If he hadn't pulled back he would have died and so would his men - less able bodies to face the Darkspawn. 

But also irrelevant bodies. If Duncan had told the truth about the GWs - that if it was a blight, only a GW could end it - maybe there could have been a tactically sensible plan. 

As it is, the idea of using your only units capable of kiling the archdemon in the vanguard is insane, and Ducan's responsible. If Loghain had to sacrifice the entire army in Ferelden to let the GWs escape alive, it would have been a boon.

Not to mention that Loghain's "intact" force clealry sapped a lot of military power from Ferelden anyway fighting the civil war. How much was lost in that war isn't clear, and with Orlesian might behind them, the GWs might have been in a better position. 

In terms of beating the Blight, whether or not Ferelden survives as a nation isn't part of the calculus at all. 

[TEWR]

But also irrelevant bodies. If Duncan had told the truth about the GWs - that if it was a blight, only a GW could end it - maybe there could have been a tactically sensible plan.

As it is, the idea of using your only units capable of kiling the archdemon in the vanguard is insane, and Ducan's responsible. If Loghain had to sacrifice the entire army in Ferelden to let the GWs escape alive, it would have been a boon.

Not to mention that Loghain's "intact" force clealry sapped a lot of military power from Ferelden anyway fighting the civil war. How much was lost in that war isn't clear, and with Orlesian might behind them, the GWs might have been in a better position.

In terms of beating the Blight, whether or not Ferelden survives as a nation isn't part of the calculus at all.

Except Wardens can't end the Blights on their own. They can only ensure there's a final battle. They absolutely need the aid of those so-called "irrelevant bodies", as Alistair and Duncan clearly discuss.

EDIT: And let's assume for the moment that the Wardens and ONLY the Wardens made it out of there. Do you really think people wouldn't be the least bit suspicious that they somehow made it out of there alive but only them? Fereldan sympathies towards the Order is not actually very high. Vaughan's father is described as not being a fan of the Grey Wardens and then there's Howe. Beyond them, lesser nobility are not fans of the Wardens either.

Teyrn Cousland, King Cailan, and Arl Eamon are respectful -- and in the case of the middle one, a massive fanboy.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 17 juin 2013 - 05:55 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

jessielou wrote...

Wait... When was it decided that The Battle of Ostagar could never have been won? They had troops, they had a plan, and they had Grey Wardens had the archdemon shown itself. I've never seen or heard any evidence that suggests had Loghain not packed up and gone home that they would have still been defeated. They may not have stopped the Blight then and there, that depends on whether the archdemon had shown up, but I don't see any reason they couldn't have put a big hurt on the horde.

The chief writer came right out and says that Loghain honestly thinks the battle is a loser, and the darkspawn coloumn goes past the horizon. Even when Loghain admits that he almost ruined the country and was one walking disaster, he still says the king was a sunk cost, and that his only failure on that score was letting him grow up to be such an idiot. I'm going to go out on a limb and say the battle was a loser.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

In Exile wrote...

Yalision wrote...
Also, he was right to some extent. If he hadn't pulled back he would have died and so would his men - less able bodies to face the Darkspawn. 

But also irrelevant bodies.

Not really. Just because they can't kill the archdemon doesn't mean they can't kill darkspawn.

 If Duncan had told the truth about the GWs - that if it was a blight, only a GW could end it - maybe there could have been a tactically sensible plan. As it is, the idea of using your only units capable of kiling the archdemon in the vanguard is insane, and Ducan's responsible. If Loghain had to sacrifice the entire army in Ferelden to let the GWs escape alive, it would have been a boon.

None of that was Loghain's fault, since he wasn't told and could not be expected to guess.

Not to mention that Loghain's "intact" force clealry sapped a lot of military power from Ferelden anyway fighting the civil war. How much was lost in that war isn't clear, and with Orlesian might behind them, the GWs might have been in a better position. 

The Civil War wasn't entirely Loghain's fault. He dropped the ball diffusing Teagan's suspicions, but Teagan raised them at exactly the wrong time.

In Exile wrote...
In terms of beating the Blight, whether or not Ferelden survives as a nation isn't part of the calculus at all. 

Valid utilitarian logic. Now feed that to its general. Make sure you trust your armor.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 17 juin 2013 - 06:27 .

[jessielou]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I edited my post to note a very crucial difference between Orlais' atrocities and Loghain's. Orlais did it for the lulz. Loghain actually had legitimate reasons for why he did these things (which does not justify slavery, but it does cast an important light over it that must be considered when discussing it). 

Who says Orlais did what they did for the lulz?  Couldn't they have had perfectly reasonable (to them) reasons for doing what they did?

Firstly, he never wanted to fight his own people or destroy their land. But the Bannorn chose to prioritize politics over uniting under his banner temporarily, and then instigated a Civil War. So Loghain was forced to fight his own people.

The civil war began in part because he was suspected of trying to usurp the throne.  Which he sort of was.  Not to mention that some did suspect him of purposefully causing Cailan's death.  Which he sort of did.

Secondly, he does not actually murder people. You can hear from a few rumor sources that he's making it a point to arrest the people opposing him. He does not kill lords and ladies out of hand, and the only time he makes it a point to kill people is in the actual war itself. IIRC, however, some of the people fighting under his banner elected to go a more vengeful route to people that opposed Loghain (which doesn't mean he ordered them to do it.)

This is only true if you completely absolve him of any and all complicity in Howe's plans.  All the nobility who just happened to have been able to give him some sort of opposition just happened to drop dead from a series of happy accidents?  Not likely he really thought that, even if you're generous and say that he may not have know about it beforehand.  But he also happens to be the one that had Eamon taken out of the picture.

Neither Loghain nor his men rape anyone, so that's not an atrocity committed by his hand. Same thing with the Baroness schtick.

Yet, like i said earlier no one seemed to have a problem with Rapey McRapepants using the Alienage as his own personal harem.  I'm pretty sure the Emperor/Empress of Orlais never personally raped any Fereldens either.

As for the slavery, that wouldn't have been necessary if A) the Bannorn hadn't started the Civil War or the Circle had allied with Loghain, as they carry with them the Lucrosians and the Formari (a fraternity of businessmen and a sect of craftsmen respectively, who could garner enough wealth to fund the war effort).

Finally, if you talk to Loghain his intention vis-a-vis the slavery thing was that while horrible, it was necessary. Elves would be alive instead of dying without hope in the Alienage at Darkspawn hands (even in a twisted fashion), the war chest would be filled, and when the war chest was filled completely he would see to it that after the army was outfitted the remaining Elves of the Alienage would be similarly geared up.

When the Warden stopped the slavery, a few dozen Elves were shipped out and the treasury was a 1/3 of the way full (dialogue with Loghain). Now, I don't justify it, but I do consider all the things that factor into the slavery issue because I refuse to whittle the Loghain issue down to some arbitrary notion of "good and evil" -- because no such thing exists in war.

I don't consider the Bannorn to have started the civil war.  I think that was a direct result of Loghain's actions.  You're right on the point that the slavery wasn't justified and had he gone about things a different way he probably wouldn't have gotten to the point where he felt it was necessary.  The elves being alive is a poor arguement considering he sold them all to a Tevinter blood mage and thus would most likely not remain so for very long.

Lastly, I'm not trying to whittle him down to black and white.  I don't really think he was an evil person.  I think he was an extremely arrogant, extremely misguided man with a "my way or the highway" mentality that ultimately led him down a very dark path.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

jessielou wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I edited my post to note a very crucial difference between Orlais' atrocities and Loghain's. Orlais did it for the lulz. Loghain actually had legitimate reasons for why he did these things (which does not justify slavery, but it does cast an important light over it that must be considered when discussing it). 

Who says Orlais did what they did for the lulz?  Couldn't they have had perfectly reasonable (to them) reasons for doing what they did?

Considering the story Liselle tells about Chevaliers, I'd say not always. For that matter, the Codex entry on Cauthrien's sword describes its original owner (a Chevalier) as being in the same mold. I'll grant that the Orlesians had valid reasons to rape and kill Loghain's mother (his father either refused to adknowledge their lordship or didn't pay his taxes, don't remember which) and kidnap and kill his childhood pet (they kidnapped it to breed with their game hounds, and birthed it to death.) This probably does seem perfectly reasonable to them. I also think anyone who lived through that is perfectly reasonable in not wanting their children to.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 17 juin 2013 - 06:54 .

[jessielou]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

jessielou wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I edited my post to note a very crucial difference between Orlais' atrocities and Loghain's. Orlais did it for the lulz. Loghain actually had legitimate reasons for why he did these things (which does not justify slavery, but it does cast an important light over it that must be considered when discussing it). 

Who says Orlais did what they did for the lulz?  Couldn't they have had perfectly reasonable (to them) reasons for doing what they did?

Considering the story Liselle tells about Chevaliers, I'd say not always. For that matter, the Codex entry on Cauthrien's sword describes its original owner (a Chevalier) as being in the same mold. I'll grant that the Orlesians had valid reasons to rape and kill Loghain's mother (his father either refused to adknowledge their lordship or didn't pay his taxes, don't remember which) and kidnap and kill his childhood pet (they kidnapped it to breed with their game hounds, and birthed it to death.) This probably does seem perfectly reasonable to them. I also think anyone who lived through that is perfectly reasonable in not wanting their children to.

I've already said that I understand his feelings about Orlais.  My point was that you had Orlesians running around doing these horrible things, and then he turns around and does a lot of the same horrible things.

There were Chevaliers running around raping and abusing people in an occupied country?  There was nobility running around the nation's capital raping and abusing elves.  I'm just saying that you can't condemn one and then turn around and excuse the other.

[TEWR]

jessielou wrote...

Who says Orlais did what they did for the lulz?  Couldn't they have had perfectly reasonable (to them) reasons for doing what they did?

Not really, given how we've seen how Orlesians look upon Fereldans in general and Elves have a ****tier life in Orlais then in Ferelden.

They literally just sold Elves like they were cattle, and it's known that Fiona was kept as a sex slave for Orlesians IIRC. Beyond that, Orlais secretly engages in slavery at all times by rechristening their slaves "servants" but not in the typical mold of say... actual servants you see in Highever or Denerim.

Servant in Orlais is just a name, but it's really just slavery under another name.

Name's the same, but the meaning is different. Fereldan servants are free, Orlesian servants are not.

The civil war began in part because he was suspected of trying to usurp the throne.  Which he sort of was.  Not to mention that some did suspect him of purposefully causing Cailan's death.  Which he sort of did.

1) He was not. He declared himself to the Regency, yes, but Anora herself was fine with this. From a political-military standpoint she had to be, but she was still fine with it. And there was the matter of a war being fought and all. A war against the Darkspawn. That Loghain prioritized in that Landsmeet where Teagan says his line.

2) No, he did not "purposefully cause Cailan's death". He repeatedly told Cailan to stay off the front lines and Cailan refused, fighting in ev ery battle there was. Cailan repeatedly went on about "glory" and how he found strategies to be "boring", and even repeatedly refused to wait for/send a call for reinforcements that were less then a week away (Eamon) -- which means that we cannot believe he would wait for Orlesian reinforcements who would've taken far longer due to Gherlen's pass being a narrow mountain road (as well as Sulcher's Pass).

Cailan fought in that battle and he destroyed Loghain's proposed strategy. Loghain told Cailan to draw the Darkspawn towards him. That means lure them to coming to him. Cailan's men were ideally suited to being in a defendable location with the walls of Ostagar protecting their left and right flanks, but Cailan ordered them to charge out of that location (and you can see them doing it too!).

Beyond that, Cailan also only used one volley of arrows -- as opposed to keeping rows of archers behind the frontline troops to send waves of volleys into the horde until they either ran out or the battle was coming close to them -- and wasted the Mabari troops by sending them out as little more then fodder.

This is only true if you completely absolve him of any and all complicity in Howe's plans.  All the nobility who just happened to have been able to give him some sort of opposition just happened to drop dead from a series of happy accidents?

Like who? The Couslands? Word of God specifically stated that Loghain had nothing to do with the Cousland Massacre Howe perpetrated, and also stated that Loghain despises Howe and doesn't trust him as far as he can throw him. The only reason Loghain had Howe nearby was from a combination of the former's perceived need of the latter's political mind (though I find Howe to be a political moron, personally) but more then that the military threat Howe poses if antagonized.

By the time Loghain returned to Denerim, Howe had taken control of the greater part of the Coastlands by force: Highever and Denerim were now in his control along with Amaranthine. Besides the military threat he now poses, there's also the very important supply routes that run through Amaranthine.

Beyond that, Howe engaged in many criminal acts while Loghain was out in the field (which was often, as he was leading his men fighting the civil war) that Loghain was neither aware of nor had he approved of.

Not likely he really thought that, even if you're generous and say that he may not have know about it beforehand.  But he also happens to be the one that had Eamon taken out of the picture.

The poison was meant to only incapacitate, never to murder (which is supported in-game as the Demon said if she died, so did Eamon, yet he still remains alive. She just kept him from worsening).

If death was looming close, unlikely as it was, Loghain made sure that someone would report this (Berwick) and he would send the antidote. Unfortunately, Berwick was working for a man under Howe's employ, and Howe -- being the greedy, power-hungry, egotistical son of a **** he is -- would've conveniently "forgotten" that bit of information and also plotted on how to take the land for himself.

Would Loghain have shed tears if Eamon died? No, Word of God says as much. But he never set out to murder him.

Yet, like i said earlier no one seemed to have a problem with Rapey McRapepants using the Alienage as his own personal harem.  I'm pretty sure the Emperor/Empress of Orlais never personally raped any Fereldens either.

Are you talking about Vaughan here? Because how is that related to Loghain? Loghain had no jurisdiction over what Vaughan did. That was actually Cailan's/Maric's department.

Cailan, the king who never once entered the Alienage and is shocked to hear of what's going on there. He's the frickin' king but he never once said "Hey, you're my guards so shut up. These guys are my people too! I'm going in!"

And no, the Emperor of Orlais didn't rape any Fereldans (that we know of. For all we know some of those Elves were shipped to him). But he did condone all the atrocities being committed against the Fereldans as he viewed Ferelden as simply being a vassal state.

A
I don't consider the Bannorn to have started the civil war.  I think that was a direct result of Loghain's actions.

It was not. He did not strike the first blow. He antagonized them, yes, I have never denied that much. But he did not cause the civil war. He actually made it very clear to the Bannorn that he wanted to avoid a civil war after Cailan's death because that would make them seem weak in the eyes of their neighbors (a common thing in feudal societies is the power vacuum that occurs).

  You're right on the point that the slavery wasn't justified and had he gone about things a different way he probably wouldn't have gotten to the point where he felt it was necessary.

I did not say "Had he done things differently". I said had things gone differently. Two different concepts.

And while I don't justify it personally, I don't condemn him for it as heavily as other people. I still hold it against him, but just not to the same degree.

  The elves being alive is a poor arguement considering he sold them all to a Tevinter blood mage and thus would most likely not remain so for very long.

Technically speaking, Caladrius was just the middle-man of the exchange. They weren't his property, they were property of Tevinter.

And while they may have died sooner or later upon reaching Tevinter -- it's said that by the time the Warden arrives, the first ships left the port -- they were definitely still alive.

Is it a strong argument? Not really, but they are alive with a small chance of hope as opposed to the more likely prospect of dying in the Alienage without hope because it was not defendable at all -- consisting of run down ramshackle houses built upon **** and refuse.

That the Warden can save it is a miracle, not an outcome that could've occurred without his/her help.

Lastly, I'm not trying to whittle him down to black and white.  I don't really think he was an evil person.  I think he was an extremely arrogant, extremely misguided man with a "my way or the highway" mentality that ultimately led him down a very dark path.

You may not be, but many people have done so and have even argued that other people should view him in such a light.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 17 juin 2013 - 07:31 .

[Daralii]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

jessielou wrote...

Who says Orlais did what they did for the lulz?  Couldn't they have had perfectly reasonable (to them) reasons for doing what they did?

Not really, given how we've seen how Orlesians look upon Fereldans in general and Elves have a ****tier life in Orlais then in Ferelden.

They literally just sold Elves like they were cattle, and it's known that Fiona was kept as a sex slave for Orlesians IIRC. Beyond that, Orlais secretly engages in slavery at all times by rechristening their slaves "servants" but not in the typical mold of say... actual servants you see in Highever or Denerim.

Servant in Orlais is just a name, but it's really just slavery under another name.

Aren't they more like show dogs that can do manual labor? I remember Leliana talking about how valuable elves with a pedigree are.

Really hoping the elf Warden shows up for that reason alone.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Orlesian anti-slavery laws have begun to be more enforced since Celene's reign.

[LoonySpectre]

If Loghain will appear in DAI, I think he'll be interchangeable with that Orlesian Warden-Commander who appears in Awakening if the Hero of Ferelden dies while killing Archdemon.

Something in this vein:
Loghain dies, HoF lives: the Orlesian Warden-Commander will have never left Orlais.
Loghain dies, HoF dies: the Orlesian Warden-Commander will reference his stint in Vigil's Keep and his/her subsequent return to Orlais.
Loghain lives, HoF lives: the Orlesian Warden-Commander will have never left Orlais, Loghain sent to serve under him.
Loghain lives, HoF dies: the Orlesian Warden-Commander returns from Vigil's Keep and assumes his position back from Loghain, Loghain resents him for that.

By the way, what does an alive Loghain say to the Orlesian Warden-Commander in Awakening, if there is any extra dialogue between them?

[Wulfram]

LoonySpectre wrote...

By the way, what does an alive Loghain say to the Orlesian Warden-Commander in Awakening, if there is any extra dialogue between them?

Unfortunately importing a dead warden into Awakening just brings them back to life.  So AFAIK you can't play Orlesian guy with an import with Loghain alive and thus they'll never meet.

[LoonySpectre]

Wulfram wrote...

LoonySpectre wrote...

By the way, what does an alive Loghain say to the Orlesian Warden-Commander in Awakening, if there is any extra dialogue between them?

Unfortunately importing a dead warden into Awakening just brings them back to life. So AFAIK you can't play Orlesian guy with an import with Loghain alive and thus they'll never meet.

Sad. Is there a Gibbed-like editor for Dragon Age saves? It'd be an interesting experiment.

[Silfren]

LoonySpectre wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

LoonySpectre wrote...

By the way, what does an alive Loghain say to the Orlesian Warden-Commander in Awakening, if there is any extra dialogue between them?

Unfortunately importing a dead warden into Awakening just brings them back to life. So AFAIK you can't play Orlesian guy with an import with Loghain alive and thus they'll never meet.

Sad. Is there a Gibbed-like editor for Dragon Age saves? It'd be an interesting experiment.

To do what?  It wouldn't force the game to give you Loghain and the Orlesian Warden, and even if it could do that, the only dialogue you would ever see would be lifted from Loghain's dialogue to the Hero of Ferelden.

[Capt. Obvious]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The Orlesian anti-slavery laws have begun to be more enforced since Celene's reign.

But has the situation lessened as a result?

[Capt. Obvious]

Daralii wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

jessielou wrote...

Who says Orlais did what they did for the lulz?  Couldn't they have had perfectly reasonable (to them) reasons for doing what they did?

Not really, given how we've seen how Orlesians look upon Fereldans in general and Elves have a ****tier life in Orlais then in Ferelden.

They literally just sold Elves like they were cattle, and it's known that Fiona was kept as a sex slave for Orlesians IIRC. Beyond that, Orlais secretly engages in slavery at all times by rechristening their slaves "servants" but not in the typical mold of say... actual servants you see in Highever or Denerim.

Servant in Orlais is just a name, but it's really just slavery under another name.

Aren't they more like show dogs that can do manual labor? I remember Leliana talking about how valuable elves with a pedigree are.

Really hoping the elf Warden shows up for that reason alone.

I still see that as slavery, although under a different name.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Daralii wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

jessielou wrote...

Who says Orlais did what they did for the lulz?  Couldn't they have had perfectly reasonable (to them) reasons for doing what they did?

Not really, given how we've seen how Orlesians look upon Fereldans in general and Elves have a ****tier life in Orlais then in Ferelden.

They literally just sold Elves like they were cattle, and it's known that Fiona was kept as a sex slave for Orlesians IIRC. Beyond that, Orlais secretly engages in slavery at all times by rechristening their slaves "servants" but not in the typical mold of say... actual servants you see in Highever or Denerim.

Servant in Orlais is just a name, but it's really just slavery under another name.

Aren't they more like show dogs that can do manual labor? I remember Leliana talking about how valuable elves with a pedigree are.

Really hoping the elf Warden shows up for that reason alone.

Fiona was something worse, but yes, that's probably the usual arrangement.