290 réponses à ce sujet

[Black Jimmy]

 I wouldn't mind see Loghain making one last heroic stand saving a bunch of people. An epic one.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

DarthLaxian wrote...

a) Loghain was DELUDED - or POWERHUNGRY (hell - SPOILER - as far as i know he slept with Cailans Mother (Marrics Wife), too)...or even both (he was PARANOID at least with his prejudice against Orlais)

Slightly deluded would be more accurate, though it's worth noting that Orlesian history and his own experiences were the backbone for these delusions. My understanding of the books is that anytime anything went wrong, Loghain blamed it on an Orlesian plot, and until he did so at Ostagar he was always at least partially right.

his assessment (of the battle against the darkspawn being lost) of the situation at the start of the DA:O-Story strikes me a debattable (i mean cailan had the kingdoms army, the ash-warriors, the mages, some templars, lots of mabari and loghains forces...

The army at Ostagar had a few mages, one of whom left Cailan to die stating that she didn't have an army, while Loghain stated that he didn't have any mages handy to break through to Cailan's position and thus did the same thing. As for the mabari, a lot of them were dead too, remember? Possibly all of them, since we don't see any after that charge.

so it could have been enough and even if it wasn't his oath demanded that he risks it and dies for his kingdom if necessary!)

Except that he swore a conflicting oath never to risk the kingdom to protect its king after doing exactly what you think he should have done for Cailan for Maric. Even had he not, this suggestion is completely stupid on the face of it if doing so kills him to no gain.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 18 juin 2013 - 07:00 .

[Kenshen]

Capt. Obvious wrote...

Concurred. Lohgain was wise to retreat from Ostagar but what he did afterwards was pretty bad.

Of course, that just makes me like his character all the more.

Wise is not the word I would use to describe it.  Coward comes to mind.  If he really thought the battle lost before it even started then he should have been up front about it at the meeting we attend.  But no instead he lets others think he is on board with the plan and abandons them when they needed him the most.  He didn't retreat because he knew they would lose, he did so because his hatred for Orlais overruled common sense and duty to the king.

Not sure what kind of info will be imported to 3 but I will never have to worry about the sorry sob being in my game.  Though just because I cut off his head doesn't actually mean he is dead so maybe I spoke too soon.

[TEWR]

If he really thought the battle lost before it even started then he should have been up front about it at the meeting we attend

Except he figured out it was a lost cause DURING the battle, not before. He only had his worries before that their men at hand might make the battle hard to win (which he accounted for by proposing the Hammer and Anvil strategy) but he didn't know the battle was a lost cause until the fight itself.

Cailan was the one who knew that it was a lost cause and fought on anyway.

[Capt. Obvious]

aryon69 wrote...

Capt. Obvious wrote...

Concurred. Lohgain was wise to retreat from Ostagar but what he did afterwards was pretty bad.

Of course, that just makes me like his character all the more.

Wise is not the word I would use to describe it.  Coward comes to mind.  If he really thought the battle lost before it even started then he should have been up front about it at the meeting we attend.  But no instead he lets others think he is on board with the plan and abandons them when they needed him the most.  He didn't retreat because he knew they would lose, he did so because his hatred for Orlais overruled common sense and duty to the king.

Not sure what kind of info will be imported to 3 but I will never have to worry about the sorry sob being in my game.  Though just because I cut off his head doesn't actually mean he is dead so maybe I spoke too soon.

Loghain's duty was to the realm and Cailan was willing to march off to a losing battle.

[Kenshen]

I disagree with all 3 of you. At the end of that meeting when everyone seems to agree to the battle plan we see Loghain turn his back to everyone and makes a comment that was a play on words about we will see (I admit it has been a long time since I have played DA:O) but it is the facial expression he has that tells me the wheels of deciet were already in play. His betrayal was premeditated. Even Loghain's second in command was shocked that he gave the retreat order.

One thing I admit is hard for me is to not metagame here since we know more about the darkspawn and blight than Loghain or the King did. I never did understand why Duncan wouldn't tell them at least why the Grey Wardens are needed for the fight. Would that have made a difference if he had I don't know. Cailan was all about the glory of the battle and Loghain just wanted to keep Orlais out of his country.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

aryon69 wrote...

I disagree with all 3 of you. At the end of that meeting when everyone seems to agree to the battle plan we see Loghain turn his back to everyone and makes a comment that was a play on words about we will see (I admit it has been a long time since I have played DA:O) but it is the facial expression he has that tells me the wheels of deciet were already in play. His betrayal was premeditated. Even Loghain's second in command was shocked that he gave the retreat order.

We also see Loghain trying to talk Cailan out of fighting on the frontlines, which would foil what you believe to be his plan if he succeeded. Cailan's tone indicates that Loghain had been getting rather annoying about it, which he wouldn't do if he wanted to fail at persuading Cailan. We also see Loghain genuinely angered and offended at the Landsmeet when you accuse him of killing Cailan (is my understanding since I never make this argument, what with not having any proof due to there not being any) and we hear him making a quite legitimate defense of his decision to abandon Cailan to Wynne, noting that she also left the battlefield rather than try to save Cailan. As I've previously mentioned, this defense comes after Loghain has been punished as heavily as he's going to be, and after he's already stopped trying to defend all his other mistakes. So, whether or not he's correct, Loghain certainly believes that Ostagar was unwinnable. And who there would know better? He's supposed to be the legendary general.

One thing I admit is hard for me is to not metagame here since we know more about the darkspawn and blight than Loghain or the King did. I never did understand why Duncan wouldn't tell them at least why the Grey Wardens are needed for the fight.

Because there was a priest listening, and a whole bunch of Templars in the camp. While I think that the highest ranking members of the Chantry and Templars probably know what the Joining is so that they can quash such investigations as jepardize the existence of the world, you never know how anyone else is going to react. And given her reaction to Uldred attempting to make himself useful...

Would that have made a difference if he had I don't know. Cailan was all about the glory of the battle and Loghain just wanted to keep Orlais out of his country.

It would at least have meant that Loghain would try to keep a few of the Wardens off the frontlines. Whether it would have effected Cailan's actions is difficult to say, and whether Loghain would do things differently if Cailan acted the same way under this information is also difficult to say. (One thing I think is a safe bet is that Loghain would try to take you alive at Dane's Refuge.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 19 juin 2013 - 12:20 .

[Who is that Masked Man]

Even if Loghain did see the battle was hopeless during the fight, that doesn't mean his ditching Cailan wasn't premeditated. As others have said, the poisoning of Arl Eamon and Howe's massacre of the Cousland family point to him having planned out Cailan's death for quite some time beforehand.

I do expect, as Anora theorizes, that Loghain was still hoping that Cailan would have a change of heart about the "inviting in Orlais" and the "I want to pursue win glory by fighting alongside the Wardens" issues, but he was definitely well prepared to ice Cailan when it was clearly that there was no talking the king out of either decision.

I will say, though, that in no sense can I accept that Loghain's leaving Cailan to die along with his entire army was a wise decision. Forget Cailan himself: at this point, Loghain had decided he had to die. Immoral, but practical. Forget the Grey Wardens, too: Loghain didn't know how vital they really were. Plus he's suspicious of them after the events of the Calling, and because of the Orlais connection.

What gets me is, what about Cailan's ARMY? They weren't Orlesian sympathizers, or even vaguely suspicious foreigners like the Wardens. They were Ferelden citizens.

Even as disastrous as the battle at Ostagar was, there were still survivors. Carver and/or Hawke survived. Aveline survived. Morrigan talks about bands of stragglers escaping the battle. The bandits outside Lothering mention a band of wounded ash warriors coming through, among others. And that was without Loghain lifting a finger to assist any of them.

How many more men and women might have been saved, if Loghain had actually made that flanking charge, if only to give as much of the army as possible a chance to retreat? Heck, how many might have lived if he had tried to sound a general retreat when he "realized the battle was hopeless," instead of just withdrawing his own forces and leaving all the rest?

Aside from arguing with Cailan before the battle, and offering the strategy which he didn't actually use, did we see Loghain even try to do anything to save any of those soldiers? Nope.

Personally I think he just let Cailain's whole army die along with their king because they were Cailan's men, and presumably loyal to Cailan, and might not have been quite so willing as Loghain's own forces were to accept his personal vision for Ferelden.

Of course, if Loghain had bothered to try to salvage some of Cailain's army, he might not have "had" to illegally sell elves into slavery in order to finance a new army. I'm just sayin'...

[Angrywolves]

Loghain is dead.

[duckley]

aryon69 wrote...

Capt. Obvious wrote...

Concurred. Lohgain was wise to retreat from Ostagar but what he did afterwards was pretty bad.

Of course, that just makes me like his character all the more.

Wise is not the word I would use to describe it.  Coward comes to mind.  If he really thought the battle lost before it even started then he should have been up front about it at the meeting we attend.  But no instead he lets others think he is on board with the plan and abandons them when they needed him the most.  He didn't retreat because he knew they would lose, he did so because his hatred for Orlais overruled common sense and duty to the king.

Not sure what kind of info will be imported to 3 but I will never have to worry about the sorry sob being in my game.  Though just because I cut off his head doesn't actually mean he is dead so maybe I spoke too soon.

well said !

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Who is that Masked Man wrote...

Even if Loghain did see the battle was hopeless during the fight, that doesn't mean his ditching Cailan wasn't premeditated. As others have said, the poisoning of Arl Eamon and Howe's massacre of the Cousland family point to him having planned out Cailan's death for quite some time beforehand.

This assumes that he's sure he can have Cailan killed credibly during the battle. How does Loghain know Cailan won't grow a brain and decide to flank alongside him?

I do expect, as Anora theorizes, that Loghain was still hoping that Cailan would have a change of heart about the "inviting in Orlais" and the "I want to pursue win glory by fighting alongside the Wardens" issues, but he was definitely well prepared to ice Cailan when it was clearly that there was no talking the king out of either decision.

And why should he not have been willing to let Cailan die when it became clear he was going to be on the front lines? If he doesn't start planning for contingencies the second Cailan starts risking his life, he's a crap general.

I will say, though, that in no sense can I accept that Loghain's leaving Cailan to die along with his entire army was a wise decision. Forget Cailan himself: at this point, Loghain had decided he had to die. Immoral, but practical. Forget the Grey Wardens, too: Loghain didn't know how vital they really were. Plus he's suspicious of them after the events of the Calling, and because of the Orlais connection.

What gets me is, what about Cailan's ARMY? They weren't Orlesian sympathizers, or even vaguely suspicious foreigners like the Wardens. They were Ferelden citizens.

Even as disastrous as the battle at Ostagar was, there were still survivors. Carver and/or Hawke survived. Aveline survived. Morrigan talks about bands of stragglers escaping the battle. The bandits outside Lothering mention a band of wounded ash warriors coming through, among others. And that was without Loghain lifting a finger to assist any of them.

How many more men and women might have been saved, if Loghain had actually made that flanking charge, if only to give as much of the army as possible a chance to retreat? Heck, how many might have lived if he had tried to sound a general retreat when he "realized the battle was hopeless," instead of just withdrawing his own forces and leaving all the rest?

Aside from arguing with Cailan before the battle, and offering the strategy which he didn't actually use, did we see Loghain even try to do anything to save any of those soldiers? Nope.

This would have meant risking the half the army (by Ceorlic's rough estimate) that he knew for a fact he could save in its entirety. He could either settle for half, or risk everything. This is in additon to the difficulty of trying to get across to the other soldiers that it was time to go. When you take that difficulty into account, Loghain's decision not to gamble starts to look pretty smart. It's not so suspicious that he'd cut his losses.

Personally I think he just let Cailain's whole army die along with their king because they were Cailan's men, and presumably loyal to Cailan, and might not have been quite so willing as Loghain's own forces were to accept his personal vision for Ferelden.

Actually, Loghain implies quite heavily during RtO that they were his, not Cailan's. So that's this potential motivation for their deaths out the window.

Of course, if Loghain had bothered to try to salvage some of Cailain's army, he might not have "had" to illegally sell elves into slavery in order to finance a new army. I'm just sayin'...

Or he might have needed even more men, as I've noted.

Edit: This is getting off-topic though. If we want to discuss Loghain's motivations, we should be doing this in the Origins forum and leaving this thread for whether or not we want a cameo of him.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 19 juin 2013 - 01:31 .

[Sol Downer]

One thing we're all forgetting is how awesome of a father-in-law Loghain is!

[Capt. Obvious]

Ultimashade wrote...

One thing we're all forgetting is how awesome of a father-in-law Loghain is!

Pretty much. Loghains relationship witht the Warden is awesome!

[Angrywolves]

Never seen that. He's the awesome father in law that tried to kill me. Rotfl.

[Capt. Obvious]

Angrywolves wrote...

Never seen that. He's the awesome father in law that tried to kill me. Rotfl.

Sure, because you jeopardized his rule and were willing to lead this country to ruin, according to him.

[Who is that Masked Man]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Who is that Masked Man wrote...

Even if Loghain did see the battle was hopeless during the fight, that doesn't mean his ditching Cailan wasn't premeditated. As others have said, the poisoning of Arl Eamon and Howe's massacre of the Cousland family point to him having planned out Cailan's death for quite some time beforehand.

This assumes that he's sure he can have Cailan killed credibly during the battle. How does Loghain know Cailan won't grow a brain and decide to flank alongside him?

I do expect, as Anora theorizes, that Loghain was still hoping that Cailan would have a change of heart about the "inviting in Orlais" and the "I want to pursue win glory by fighting alongside the Wardens" issues, but he was definitely well prepared to ice Cailan when it was clearly that there was no talking the king out of either decision.

And why should he not have been willing to let Cailan die when it became clear he was going to be on the front lines? If he doesn't start planning for contingencies the second Cailan starts risking his life, he's a crap general.

I will say, though, that in no sense can I accept that Loghain's leaving Cailan to die along with his entire army was a wise decision. Forget Cailan himself: at this point, Loghain had decided he had to die. Immoral, but practical. Forget the Grey Wardens, too: Loghain didn't know how vital they really were. Plus he's suspicious of them after the events of the Calling, and because of the Orlais connection.

What gets me is, what about Cailan's ARMY? They weren't Orlesian sympathizers, or even vaguely suspicious foreigners like the Wardens. They were Ferelden citizens.

Even as disastrous as the battle at Ostagar was, there were still survivors. Carver and/or Hawke survived. Aveline survived. Morrigan talks about bands of stragglers escaping the battle. The bandits outside Lothering mention a band of wounded ash warriors coming through, among others. And that was without Loghain lifting a finger to assist any of them.

How many more men and women might have been saved, if Loghain had actually made that flanking charge, if only to give as much of the army as possible a chance to retreat? Heck, how many might have lived if he had tried to sound a general retreat when he "realized the battle was hopeless," instead of just withdrawing his own forces and leaving all the rest?

Aside from arguing with Cailan before the battle, and offering the strategy which he didn't actually use, did we see Loghain even try to do anything to save any of those soldiers? Nope.

This would have meant risking the half the army (by Ceorlic's rough estimate) that he knew for a fact he could save in its entirety. He could either settle for half, or risk everything. This is in additon to the difficulty of trying to get across to the other soldiers that it was time to go. When you take that difficulty into account, Loghain's decision not to gamble starts to look pretty smart. It's not so suspicious that he'd cut his losses.

Personally I think he just let Cailain's whole army die along with their king because they were Cailan's men, and presumably loyal to Cailan, and might not have been quite so willing as Loghain's own forces were to accept his personal vision for Ferelden.

Actually, Loghain implies quite heavily during RtO that they were his, not Cailan's. So that's this potential motivation for their deaths out the window.

Of course, if Loghain had bothered to try to salvage some of Cailain's army, he might not have "had" to illegally sell elves into slavery in order to finance a new army. I'm just sayin'...

Or he might have needed even more men, as I've noted.

Edit: This is getting off-topic though. If we want to discuss Loghain's motivations, we should be doing this in the Origins forum and leaving this thread for whether or not we want a cameo of him.

I took no position over wether it was "right" to kill Cailan. Honestly, I think that one's one of the more excusable things Loghain did.

But I do think it's absurd to argue that Loghain was "smart" to leave half the Ferelden army to die, if he didn't want them dead. That is an enormous number of men to sacrifice, especially given that we never saw Loghain make even a token effort to save any of them. He says he couldn't have saved the king, but surely he could at the least have sent in a few messengers with trumpets or whatever to sound a retreat after he'd realized the size of the darkspawn horde.

How "hard" could that be? What kind of general doesn't have an easily recognizable signal to the soldiers that it's time to pull up and get out? Cailan might have insisted on staying and fighting to the death regardless, but that would have been a good thing as far as Loghain was concerned, and then he would have been able to honestly insist that he did everything he reasonably could to save the king and his army.

I will note that despite Loghain implying otherwise, Arl Eamon does say outright that those were Cailan's men who died, and that Loghain's personal forces were still intact. He notes that the fact Loghain's own army wasn't mauled will make it hard for Eamon and his supporters to defeat him in open battle. So as far as I'm concerned, that motivation for Loghain leaving the king's men to their deaths is still very much in play.

I'd even say it made some tactical sense, given that Loghain apparently anticipated civil war. With Eamon and the Couslands out of the picture, and the king's loyalists all left to die with Cailan, Loghain had the biggest army left in Ferelden. 

Anyway, no, I won't be taking this to the DAO forums. This is just what I think, and I'm not especially interested in debating it at length. I just wanted to share my own opinion on the matter.

Returning to the topic at hand, though, sure, I also hope they bring back Loghain in save games where he's still alive. I'm not really a big fan of his myself, but I have to admit I found it oddly heartwarming seeing him again in Awakening in the one save file where I spared him.

[Capt. Obvious]

simfamSP wrote...

Angrywolves wrote...

Loghain is dead.

Loghain is brooding in Orlais...

Seriously, something about Loghain reminds me of Batman.

He's the hero Ferelden deserves but not the one it needs right now.

[TEWR]

As others have said, the poisoning of Arl Eamon and Howe's massacre of the Cousland family point to him having planned out Cailan's death for quite some time beforehand.

And as others have also said, David Gaider said long ago that Loghain had nothing to do with the Cousland massacre in any way, shape, or form.

And in-game evidence points to Eamon having fallen to poison after Ostagar.

Even as disastrous as the battle at Ostagar was, there were still survivors. Carver and/or Hawke survived. Aveline survived. Morrigan talks about bands of stragglers escaping the battle. The bandits outside Lothering mention a band of wounded ash warriors coming through, among others. And that was without Loghain lifting a finger to assist any of them.

How many more men and women might have been saved, if Loghain had actually made that flanking charge, if only to give as much of the army as possible a chance to retreat? Heck, how many might have lived if he had tried to sound a general retreat when he "realized the battle was hopeless," instead of just withdrawing his own forces and leaving all the rest?

Aside from arguing with Cailan before the battle, and offering the strategy which he didn't actually use, did we see Loghain even try to do anything to save any of those soldiers? Nope.

That would be the tactically unsound thing to do. That portion of the army under Cailan's command was already cracking at the time. Sending his thousands upon thousands of men to save what was now a fraction of the original force in the valley itself would result in him losing far too many men to make it worth it. It's asking for an Honor before Reason mentality along the lines of "Kill 1,000 and save 100."

And beyond that, he couldn't even shout out "RETREAT" without compromising his position, as the Darkspawn would no doubt have heard the shout and begun pursuing him. He couldn't do anything that would signal a retreat for the people in the valley without drawing the Darkspawn to where he was and then having them on his ass.

The most he could do was give a retreat for the people under his command OR when he's sending out a retreat he would then send out maybe 200 soldiers (at most) to attempt to save Cailan and potentially Duncan if he wanted to. If they succeed, good. If not, Loghain attempted regardless while keeping his forces intact to fight another day. It'd be the politically sound move.

But Loghain has never been, nor will he ever be, a good politician. But he remains forever a great general.

The call for a retreat for the valley forces led by Cailan and Duncan would've, in my mind, been the responsibility of the field commanders in Cailan's regiment. That is to say Cailan, Duncan, and any other high ranking soldiers there.

So as far as I'm concerned, that motivation for Loghain leaving the king's men to their deaths is still very much in play.

I don't really buy that, given that he knows precisely who he left behind. He knew their names, their families, even where they called home. Eamon wasn't at Ostagar. Loghain was.

I think I know whose word I'm going to regard more highly about the battle.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 19 juin 2013 - 04:49 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Who is that Masked Man wrote...

How "hard" could that be? What kind of general doesn't have an easily recognizable signal to the soldiers that it's time to pull up and get out? Cailan might have insisted on staying and fighting to the death regardless, but that would have been a good thing as far as Loghain was concerned, and then he would have been able to honestly insist that he did everything he reasonably could to save the king and his army.

You're assuming they're paying attention. They're more likely to pay attention to the darkspawn than to whatever signal Loghain devises.

I will note that despite Loghain implying otherwise, Arl Eamon does say outright that those were Cailan's men who died, and that Loghain's personal forces were still intact. He notes that the fact Loghain's own army wasn't mauled will make it hard for Eamon and his supporters to defeat him in open battle. So as far as I'm concerned, that motivation for Loghain leaving the king's men to their deaths is still very much in play.

I'd even say it made some tactical sense, given that Loghain apparently anticipated civil war. With Eamon and the Couslands out of the picture, and the king's loyalists all left to die with Cailan, Loghain had the biggest army left in Ferelden.

Loghain stated he withdrew due to other tactical considerations, and that the men lost were as much his as Cailan's at a point where he had no reason to lie about it. As for his reason for leaving the dead men, they were pretty much a sunk cost, unless you think Loghain could have got their attention without drawing the attention of the darkspawn. As for the Couslands, the head writer said that Loghain had no part in that except as an after-the-fact-accessory.

Anyway, no, I won't be taking this to the DAO forums. This is just what I think, and I'm not especially interested in debating it at length. I just wanted to share my own opinion on the matter.

And yet its worth debating here, apparently.

Returning to the topic at hand, though, sure, I also hope they bring back Loghain in save games where he's still alive. I'm not really a big fan of his myself, but I have to admit I found it oddly heartwarming seeing him again in Awakening in the one save file where I spared him.

Here we agree.

[Plaintiff]

I don't care if Loghain comes back for people who spared him. I never did, so barring any lame-ass resurrection hijinks, I don't ever have to look at that idiot ever again.

[Yalision]

I hope having Loghain alive has a profound influence on at least one battle. Maybe more people were saved because he makes a strategic call no one else would have thought of. This kind of goodness would please me greatly.

[Clertar]

A 30-year life span means that on average Wardens die due to the taint at 30 years of age (likely meaning that some can become afflicted much sooner, and some much later; we don't know what the standard deviation is).

[Capt. Obvious]

Yalision wrote...

I hope having Loghain alive has a profound influence on at least one battle. Maybe more people were saved because he makes a strategic call no one else would have thought of. This kind of goodness would please me greatly.

Perhaps if you spare him, he'll be able to beat back Cassandra's forces at Montsimmard. I think that would make the decision of sparing Loghain's life all the more impactful.