290 réponses à ce sujet

[Fast Jimmy]

I mean that if we play his character straight - someone who wasn't completely power-hungry from the start and didn't conspire with Arl Howe from quite early on to knock off Cailan, making him more or less an irredeemable villain - then Loghain essentially blunders from idiot move to idiot move. 

The only display of tactics we see is pretty unimpressive, the political manuevering we see is kind of comically self-destructive, and the theories floating about that he was being played like a fiddle by Howe make him look generally inept. 
On the other hand, if we assume him and Howe were in it from the start we can sidestep the incompetence problem, but then we run into the iredeemably evil problem (like Howe himself). 

I disagree. It doesn't make them irredeemably evil. Morally questionable, sure. Unscrupulous to the extreme, without a doubt. But even if they both planned it from the start, their biggest flaw was underestimating the Blight and overestimating the Orlesians. Which may land on the side of incompetence again, but if we consider that the Blight wasn't real and Cailian was inviting ache skiers into the country for no warranted reason at all, suddenly they are actually saving the country, despite resorting to slavery, torture, assassination and kidnapping. All very bad things... but not that bad if there was no Blight and the alternative was Orlesians butchering and raping women's me children across the countryside.

Loghain simply believed in the threat he had seen firsthand (the brutality of the Orlesian armies) over the threat he hadn't (the Darkspawn and Blight). Which isn't a terrible position to take - real military experience over myths and legends - but it was the wrong one, for the (very) worse.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 10 septembre 2013 - 01:41 .

[sylvanaerie]

meh. I don't care one way or the other. Nearly every play I had, I lopped off his head (or let Alistair have the honors).

I've only been able to recruit him once (just to see stuff I hadn't) right before DA2 was released. So I don't care to see him in DAI. He had his moment in DAO. Especially not if they retcon his death and force him on me in DAI. Which means he can't be a companion. That would be a huge waste of resources to spend on a character who would be dead in a large number of the games played.

As a cameo for those who spared him, or rumors of his activities, I suppose it would be feasible, but not as a companion.

[Former_Fiend]

If he survived Origins, yes. Yes indeed. Hell yes.

[Fast Jimmy]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Though you could argue that after the Blight swallowed up an ENTIRE TOWN and grew to exert its influence over like a fourth of Ferelden, he would have realized the threat, would have realized that the good of the country required cooperation with Grey Wardens rather than making them outlaws.

Well, that game would have been much less exciting. It's much more fun to be wanted... WAAANTTEEDD!!!... Dead or Alive!

[duckley]

I understand that many people find his character to be intriguing, but to me he was a coward, an opportunist, a murderer, delusional, selfish, self-serving, calculating, immoral, and suffered from delusions of grandeur and paranoia. He planned the strategy that Cailen was to follow and then quit the field. No attempt to save Cailen - even a small contingent to try, for his daughter's sake ( I tend to believe that he intended to allow Cailen to die any way). His strategy failed and then he retreated, blamed the Wardens, started a civil war, ignored Howe's massacre, conspired with Uldred to murder mages and templars, engaged/encouraged slave trading, and poisoned Eamon. Have I fogotten anything?
Sorry - I just don't get it! If he is alive, should he not be jailed for his crimes?

[LPPrince]

Moar Mac Tir please.

[Am1vf]

I don't see why not, but I would be more more interested in seeing Ser Cauthrien tbh.

[Former_Fiend]

duckley wrote...

I understand that many people find his character to be intriguing, but to me he was a coward, an opportunist, a murderer, delusional, selfish, self-serving, calculating, immoral, and suffered from delusions of grandeur and paranoia. He planned the strategy that Cailen was to follow and then quit the field. No attempt to save Cailen - even a small contingent to try, for his daughter's sake ( I tend to believe that he intended to allow Cailen to die any way). His strategy failed and then he retreated, blamed the Wardens, started a civil war, ignored Howe's massacre, conspired with Uldred to murder mages and templars, engaged/encouraged slave trading, and poisoned Eamon. Have I fogotten anything?
Sorry - I just don't get it! If he is alive, should he not be jailed for his crimes?

I agree with some of your points and disagree with others- notably the coward bit. Whatever else he may have been, his death scenes- well, two out of three of them, at least, prove that he was no coward.

That being said, it's the very fact that he was such a flawed and to some extend, horrible person that makes me find hi fascinating. The lengths he was willing to go to, what he was willing to do. His mistakes, his successes. His reasonings, justifications, rationalizations.

I've never claimed Loghain was a good person, but that doesn't mean he's not an interesting one. I'd rather sit down and have a conversation with him than Alistair any day.

And while an argument could be made that he should be jailed, the bottom line is that he won't be; becoming a Grey Warden is essentially a get out of jail free card.

[LPPrince]

Is it though? It can also be seen as a death sentence.

There's a reason why Bethany hates it, or in case I'm remembering incorrectly, dislikes it so much more than her fondness for being taken to the Circle.

[Former_Fiend]

LPPrince wrote...

Is it though? It can also be seen as a death sentence.

There's a reason why Bethany hates it, or in case I'm remembering incorrectly, dislikes it so much more than her fondness for being taken to the Circle.

I'm not saying it's an easy life or a good life by any means. What I'm saying is that in the world of Thedas, being conscripted by the Grey Wardens is a viable alternative to incarseration or execution under the legal systems of most nations. 

It's also something that's going to vary depending on the person. Bethany's a kind person with no love of violence and no greater sense of duty, like you might find in a soldier. She's simply not suited for the life of a Warden. Carver, on the other hand, thrives in the Warden's life as he's much more combative and is the kind of man who wants a greater cause to dedicate himself to.

In that sense, Loghain would likely thrive in the Wardens, as well. Probably be a bit more challenging to him than it would be for Carver because Loghain's first love and dedication is Ferelden, but it's still something he can make sense of and appreciate. He's a soldier and a general at heart, so the Wardens let him be who he is. If anything he'd do better as a Warden than he ever did as a Teryn because while he's a great general, he is an abysmal politician, which was the cause of most of his failings in Oirgins. 

And yes, it is technically a death sentence, but at Loghain's age at his joining, another thirty years give or take is about what he'd be realistically looking at, anyway, so he doesn't have much to lose. 

[Cespar]

I couldn't kill him after reading the book or Alister after traveling with him for a while and because I like King Maric and wanted a part of him to stay alive. He is not dull character in the book and i think the game didn't do him justice like the book. Just to throw in my two cent.

[Star fury]

Cap. Obvious wrote...

kiprakoyoh wrote...

Loghain returns as a bright and perky advocate of the hero myth, having been healed by a dwarf-mage, to crush the insolent and lost chantry.

At this point, with Leliana coming back despite your decision to kill her in DA:O, anything is possible.

Why do you keep bumping your forgotten thread?

[Captain Obvious]

duckley wrote...

I understand that many people find his character to be intriguing, but to me he was a coward, an opportunist, a murderer, delusional, selfish, self-serving, calculating, immoral, and suffered from delusions of grandeur and paranoia. He planned the strategy that Cailen was to follow and then quit the field. No attempt to save Cailen - even a small contingent to try, for his daughter's sake ( I tend to believe that he intended to allow Cailen to die any way). His strategy failed and then he retreated, blamed the Wardens, started a civil war, ignored Howe's massacre, conspired with Uldred to murder mages and templars, engaged/encouraged slave trading, and poisoned Eamon. Have I fogotten anything?
Sorry - I just don't get it! If he is alive, should he not be jailed for his crimes?

Loghain is not a coward. In fact, his decision to leave Cailan was very brave because if his troops engaged, the losses would've been substantial and enough to destroy the whole Ferelden army. Loghain was by no means being opportunistic, as he was trying to save Ferelden. Loghain may be a murderer, but the Warden has also murdered. Loghain was neither selfish or self-serving as his intention was for the greater good. Loghain being calculating isn't a bad trait. This supposed immorality of Loghain isn't real as Loghain's intentions were good. These "delusions of grandeur" are something that Loghain lacks. What he did was for his nation. However, Howe certainly wanted power. Unfortuantely, Loghain didn't have full knowledge of Howe's activities. He blamed the Wardens because he was under the impression that they were working for the Orlesian Empire. How was he suppose to know that they were the only ones that could stop a Blight?  Also, technically it was Bann Teagan that started the war. There is nothing that suggests that Loghain even knew of Howe's massacre. Also, Loghain didn't conspire with Uldred to murder mages and templars, he wanted Uldred to stir up support for him. As for the slave-trading bit, again it's uncertain if he knew about it. As for Eamon's poisoning, I'm honestly not sure about that. But it's mistakes like that that make him an interesting character(and besides, Teagan's a boring character anyway).

Anywho, I agree with Former_Friend. Loghain's a fascinating character and I'd rather have a chat with him over Alistair anyday. I hope BioWare pursues a character as flawed and yes, a bit vile, as Loghain in DA:I. 

Modifié par Cap. Obvious, 10 septembre 2013 - 10:50 .

[thats1evildude]

I was going to suggest an appearance by his severed head on a pike in DAI, but I just realized it's been ten years since his death and it'd just be a skull now. Not nearly as satisfying.

However, I wouldn't mind a cameo by Anora. She could rant bitterly about how the Warden murdered her father and denied her the throne. It'd make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 10 septembre 2013 - 11:22 .

[Captain Obvious]

thats1evildude wrote...

I was going to suggest an appearance by his severed head on a pike in DAI, but I just realized it's been ten years since his death and it'd just be a skull now. Not nearly as satisfying.

However, I wouldn't mind a cameo by Anora. She could rant bitterly about how the Warden murdered her father and denied her the throne. It'd make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

Anora would probably be very composed and keep her feelings to herself. 

Modifié par Cap. Obvious, 10 septembre 2013 - 11:26 .

[Clockwork_Wings]

Cap. Obvious wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

I was going to suggest an appearance by his severed head on a pike in DAI, but I just realized it's been ten years since his death and it'd just be a skull now. Not nearly as satisfying.

However, I wouldn't mind a cameo by Anora. She could rant bitterly about how the Warden murdered her father and denied her the throne. It'd make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

Anora would probably be very composed and keep her feelings to herself. 

Depends on how long Alistair left her in that dungeon.

[thats1evildude]

 At the very least, I expect she's grinded her teeth down to the gums. 

[Captain Obvious]

Clockwork_Wings wrote...

Cap. Obvious wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

I was going to suggest an appearance by his severed head on a pike in DAI, but I just realized it's been ten years since his death and it'd just be a skull now. Not nearly as satisfying.

However, I wouldn't mind a cameo by Anora. She could rant bitterly about how the Warden murdered her father and denied her the throne. It'd make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

Anora would probably be very composed and keep her feelings to herself. 

Depends on how long Alistair left her in that dungeon.

Was she imprisoned? It's been while since my last playthrough.

Anywho, I like Anora. She's a much more interesting character. Actually, I like cunning politicians in fiction.

Modifié par Cap. Obvious, 10 septembre 2013 - 11:41 .

[Clockwork_Wings]

Cap. Obvious wrote...

Clockwork_Wings wrote...

Cap. Obvious wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

I was going to suggest an appearance by his severed head on a pike in DAI, but I just realized it's been ten years since his death and it'd just be a skull now. Not nearly as satisfying.

However, I wouldn't mind a cameo by Anora. She could rant bitterly about how the Warden murdered her father and denied her the throne. It'd make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

Anora would probably be very composed and keep her feelings to herself. 

Depends on how long Alistair left her in that dungeon.

Was she imprisoned? It's been while since my last playthrough.

Anywho, I like Anora. She's a much more interesting character. Actually, I like cunning politicians in fiction.

If you don't marry who to Alistair or let her rule alone, he imprisons her to keep her from acting against him, while leaving her alive in case he performs his wardenly duties and Fereldan wil need a ruler after him.

Modifié par Clockwork_Wings, 10 septembre 2013 - 11:46 .

[Cylan Cooper]

I'd love an appearance by Loghain. From what Alistair said in 2, things seem pretty rocky between Fereldan and Orlais. It's very interesting that Loghain is serving with the Wardens in the country he seems to despise as it's either tearing itself apart through civil war or poised to once again battle his beloved homeland. Come on, Bioware, throw me a bone here, he was my favorite character from Origins besides Oghren.

[Captain Obvious]

Clockwork_Wings wrote...

Cap. Obvious wrote...

Clockwork_Wings wrote...

Cap. Obvious wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

I was going to suggest an appearance by his severed head on a pike in DAI, but I just realized it's been ten years since his death and it'd just be a skull now. Not nearly as satisfying.

However, I wouldn't mind a cameo by Anora. She could rant bitterly about how the Warden murdered her father and denied her the throne. It'd make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

Anora would probably be very composed and keep her feelings to herself. 

Depends on how long Alistair left her in that dungeon.

Was she imprisoned? It's been while since my last playthrough.

Anywho, I like Anora. She's a much more interesting character. Actually, I like cunning politicians in fiction.

If you don't marry who to Alistair or let her rule alone, he imprisons her to keep her from acting against him, while leaving her alive in case he performs his wardenly duties and Fereldan wil need a ruler after him.

That's pretty cold. But it certainly opens up an interesting subplot. If Loghain is still alive, I wouldn't be surprised if he tried to save her. I certainly would.

[Taleroth]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Loghain simply believed in the threat he had seen firsthand (the brutality of the Orlesian armies) over the threat he hadn't (the Darkspawn and Blight). Which isn't a terrible position to take - real military experience over myths and legends - but it was the wrong one, for the (very) worse.

It doesn't make any sense to me. How does he plan to fight the Orlesians when he has destroyed the bulk of the army and betrayed the rest? If there had been no Blight, then the Orlesians would have steamrolled Fereldan into the dirt.

But what's worse, is if he'd simply stopped the Darkspawn threat he believed was so simple to beat, Cailan would have no reason to invite the Orlesians in. The army would have been whole and the nation united.

Modifié par Taleroth, 11 septembre 2013 - 12:10 .

[Captain Obvious]

Taleroth wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Loghain simply believed in the threat he had seen firsthand (the brutality of the Orlesian armies) over the threat he hadn't (the Darkspawn and Blight). Which isn't a terrible position to take - real military experience over myths and legends - but it was the wrong one, for the (very) worse.

It doesn't make any sense to me. How does he plan to fight the Orlesians when he has destroyed the bulk of the army and betrayed the rest? If there had been no Blight, then the Orlesians would have steamrolled Fereldan into the dirt.

But what's worse, is if he'd simply stopped the Darkspawn threat he believed was so simple to beat, Cailan would have no reason to invite the Orlesians in. The army would have been whole and the nation united.

Loghain didn't betray "the rest."  The battle was lost and he had to retreat. As for destroying the "bulk of the army", well, if by that, you mean the whole Civil War that ensued, he never planned for that to happen. Also, beating the Darkspawn threat isn't so simple and it was uncertain whether it was a real Blight or not.