145 réponses à ce sujet

[FlyingSquirrel]

KaiserShep wrote...
This is what I don't get. If you didn't do LotSB, Liara basically raids his base without you, so your character is not written to have somehow participated off screen, but even if you don't do the Arrival DLC, Anderson proceeds to tell you "The sh*t you've done blah blah blah". What is he talking about? You mean saving the galaxy, TWICE? Shep has more than the right to be pretty indignant and vocal about it at this point, because all Shepard did was haul ass between the stars and blow up evil monsters, while being pulled every which way by either Cerberus or the Alliance. 

Shepard would probably still need to answer for the temporary collaboration with Cerberus. Plus, the Omega-4 Relay is destroyed by other Alliance personnel if you don't do Arrival, so the Alliance is probably under heavy political pressure to keep a tight leash on anyone who could be perceived as a "rogue operative" of some sort.

Also, ME2 has a pretty high body count even without Arrival. While we know, from the context, that Shepard's hand was repeatedly forced by the various merc gangs, Shepard's reason for being involved in those situations in the first place is questionable on the surface given the Cerberus connection and the fact that the Alliance hasn't publicly acknowledged the Reapers.

(And honestly, opening all the cell doors on that Blue Suns prison ship is pretty stupid - it still annoys me that Bioware just defaulted Shepard into doing that instead of giving us more than one way to finish the mission.)

[IanPolaris]

remydat wrote...

Yeah but that is still because he is indoctrinated.

That's a cop out especially since TIM is very concerned about indoctrination and wants to fight the reapers.  We also don't know until the very end how this happens (hint: implanting reaper tech into your skull is dumb)

It's just bad writing.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

FlyingSquirrel wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...
This is what I don't get. If you didn't do LotSB, Liara basically raids his base without you, so your character is not written to have somehow participated off screen, but even if you don't do the Arrival DLC, Anderson proceeds to tell you "The sh*t you've done blah blah blah". What is he talking about? You mean saving the galaxy, TWICE? Shep has more than the right to be pretty indignant and vocal about it at this point, because all Shepard did was haul ass between the stars and blow up evil monsters, while being pulled every which way by either Cerberus or the Alliance. 

Shepard would probably still need to answer for the temporary collaboration with Cerberus. Plus, the Omega-4 Relay is destroyed by other Alliance personnel if you don't do Arrival, so the Alliance is probably under heavy political pressure to keep a tight leash on anyone who could be perceived as a "rogue operative" of some sort.

The Alpha Relay is destroyed, not the Omega-4 relay.  As for answering for temporarily working for Cerberus, why?  Shepard is a Spectre.  The council made the spectres specifically to do these sorts of things (like associate with unsavory criminal/terrorist enemies for the public good when the council can't).  Shepard is acting like the council wants it's spectres to act and clearly did so outside of council space and clearly for the good of the galaxy.

Also, ME2 has a pretty high body count even without Arrival. While we know, from the context, that Shepard's hand was repeatedly forced by the various merc gangs, Shepard's reason for being involved in those situations in the first place is questionable on the surface given the Cerberus connection and the fact that the Alliance hasn't publicly acknowledged the Reapers.

(And honestly, opening all the cell doors on that Blue Suns prison ship is pretty stupid - it still annoys me that Bioware just defaulted Shepard into doing that instead of giving us more than one way to finish the mission.)

Again, Shepard is a deniable asset and Spectre acting outside the chain of command and as a council spectre who are explicitly allowed to do things like this.  There isn't grounds for an arrest let alone charges.

-Polaris

[I_Jedi]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Alpha Relay is destroyed, not the Omega-4 relay.  As for answering for temporarily working for Cerberus, why?  Shepard is a Spectre.  The council made the spectres specifically to do these sorts of things (like associate with unsavory criminal/terrorist enemies for the public good when the council can't).  Shepard is acting like the council wants it's spectres to act and clearly did so outside of council space and clearly for the good of the galaxy.

-Polaris

Shepard lost his Spectre status on account of being dead from ME2. Shepard can get the name of Spectre back, but the title is not intended to grant all the things Spectres can do. Shepard only becomes a Spectre fully and officially to the public in ME3.

[remydat]

IanPolaris wrote...

That's a cop out especially since TIM is very concerned about indoctrination and wants to fight the reapers.  We also don't know until the very end how this happens (hint: implanting reaper tech into your skull is dumb)

It's just bad writing.

-Polaris

No it isn't.  People of people are concerned about indoctrination and still end up indoctrinated.  That don't mean sh*t.  and TIM like Leviathan and like the Catalyst is arrogant.  Leviathan's arrogance led it to believe it would not succumb to the same fact as its thralls that created synthetics and so created a super synthetic.  The Catalyst's arrogance doesn't allow it to see past its own conclusions regarding the synthetic organic conflict.  TIM's arrogance allowes him to think he understands indoctrination well enough to not succumb to it.

It is not bad writing when arrogant people do things as a result of that arrogance.  It is a fundamental aspect of fiction writing since the Greeks.  They called it hubris.  TIM tried to play god which is 100% in keeping with his nature and that was his fatal flaw.  Just because you wanted it to be different doesn't make it bad writing.  TIM is an arrogant douche and he paid for being one.

[FlyingSquirrel]

The Alpha Relay is destroyed, not the Omega-4 relay.

 
Sorry, brain cramp.

As for answering for temporarily working for Cerberus, why?  Shepard is a Spectre.  The council made the spectres specifically to do these sorts of things (like associate with unsavory criminal/terrorist enemies for the public good when the council can't).  Shepard is acting like the council wants it's spectres to act and clearly did so outside of council space and clearly for the good of the galaxy.

Spectre authority isn't a complete get-out-of-jail-free card (Saren being the clearest example of a Spectre exceeding the boundaries of the Council's tolerance). Plus, while Shepard may not be under the Alliance military's conventional chain of command, the Alliance also seems to be a civilian entity governing all humans within its territory. Shepard may still be considered a citizen of the Alliance.

Outside of Council space? Mostly, but not entirely. Shepard is implicated in quite a bit of mayhem on the Citadel between Thane's and Garrus's loyalty missions, and I assume that the krogan DMZ is considered Council space. Probably Bekenstein too given that it's just one solar system away from the Citadel.

Clearly for the good of the galaxy? Again, we know that, but the governments aren't publicly acknowleding it, and the Alpha Relay's destruction may have caused enough political fallout that someone like Shepard isn't getting the benefit of the doubt at the moment.

Again, Shepard is a deniable asset and Spectre acting outside the chain of command and as a council spectre who are explicitly allowed to do things like this.  There isn't grounds for an arrest let alone charges.

I don't think Shepard is deniable at all - people recognize him/her all over the place (well, except Bekenstein, apparently), and the Spectre induction was apparently public. From the bit about the VS's induction in ME3, it seems like there are publicly acknowledged Spectres as well as some that operate completely under the radar. Shepard is one of the former.

[IanPolaris]

I_Jedi wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The Alpha Relay is destroyed, not the Omega-4 relay.  As for answering for temporarily working for Cerberus, why?  Shepard is a Spectre.  The council made the spectres specifically to do these sorts of things (like associate with unsavory criminal/terrorist enemies for the public good when the council can't).  Shepard is acting like the council wants it's spectres to act and clearly did so outside of council space and clearly for the good of the galaxy.

-Polaris

Shepard lost his Spectre status on account of being dead from ME2. Shepard can get the name of Spectre back, but the title is not intended to grant all the things Spectres can do. Shepard only becomes a Spectre fully and officially to the public in ME3.

The Alliance knows better and so does the council.   The whole point of Spectres is to have operatives that do these sorts of things with deniability.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

FlyingSquirrel wrote...

The Alpha Relay is destroyed, not the Omega-4 relay.

 
Sorry, brain cramp.

As for answering for temporarily working for Cerberus, why?  Shepard is a Spectre.  The council made the spectres specifically to do these sorts of things (like associate with unsavory criminal/terrorist enemies for the public good when the council can't).  Shepard is acting like the council wants it's spectres to act and clearly did so outside of council space and clearly for the good of the galaxy.

Spectre authority isn't a complete get-out-of-jail-free card (Saren being the clearest example of a Spectre exceeding the boundaries of the Council's tolerance). Plus, while Shepard may not be under the Alliance military's conventional chain of command, the Alliance also seems to be a civilian entity governing all humans within its territory. Shepard may still be considered a citizen of the Alliance.

Spectre authority is pretty danged close as Capt Anderson explains at the start of ME1.  A Spectre can (and is expected) to blow up a room full of children if it's for the betterment of the galaxy.  Spectres are above the law and only the council can say otherwise (and they never do).

Outside of Council space? Mostly, but not entirely. Shepard is implicated in quite a bit of mayhem on the Citadel between Thane's and Garrus's loyalty missions, and I assume that the krogan DMZ is considered Council space. Probably Bekenstein too given that it's just one solar system away from the Citadel.

Capt Baily covers for you in both Thane and Garrus' loyalty missions.  Not only that but you CAN invoke Spectre authority in Thane's mission legally (when Elias' attorney arrives and not the renegade interrupt) and the lawyer explains that since Shepard is a Spectre, his hands are completely tied.  As for the Krogan DMZ, that only applies the Krogan Aerospace.  The Krogan Clans retain control of the surface of Tuchanka and are allowed to do pretty much as they please....and as far as anyone is concerned, it's Urdnot fighting Wyerlok and not a council matter at all.  As for Bekenstein, no one ever twigs to Shepard's real identity.

Clearly for the good of the galaxy? Again, we know that, but the governments aren't publicly acknowleding it, and the Alpha Relay's destruction may have caused enough political fallout that someone like Shepard isn't getting the benefit of the doubt at the moment.

That's assuming that Shepard actually did blow up the Alpha relay.  Not only that, but what proof do the Batarians really have?  If you did it right, the Batarians never saw you rescue Dr Kenson.  The evidence they have that it's Shepard at all is sketchy at best.  Not only that but officially Shepard is a rogue terrorist and the Alliance disavows.  The Batarians won't believe it, but who cares what the Batarians believe?

Again, Shepard is a deniable asset and Spectre acting outside the chain of command and as a council spectre who are explicitly allowed to do things like this.  There isn't grounds for an arrest let alone charges.

I don't think Shepard is deniable at all - people recognize him/her all over the place (well, except Bekenstein, apparently), and the Spectre induction was apparently public. From the bit about the VS's induction in ME3, it seems like there are publicly acknowledged Spectres as well as some that operate completely under the radar. Shepard is one of the former.

Spectres are by definition deniable assets.  Until Spectre authority is rescinded by the council, Shepard can legally do all these things, and the Alliance as a council race has no grounds to arrest him.  As Hackett put it (after the renegade assassination of "Lord" Darius), we couldn't discipline you for this even if we wanted to.

-Polaris

[AlexMBrennan]

Spectres are above the law and only the council can say otherwise (and they never do).

The first thing they do in ME2 is call for Shepard's execution so the Council's position on Shepard working with Cerberus is pretty clear

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Kind of surprised that there haven't been a lot of white knight Cerberus haters in here yet.

As I said, due to bad writing, joining Cerberus makes no sense in ME3. It could have and should have made sense from an RP perspective, especially for my neutral Shepard who is more than willing to do very dark deeds, steel his compassion for civilians (as in become obtuse about their fate), and be utterly ruthless if it means stopping the Reapers. But none of that counts for **** for my Shepard if the Reapers are the ones pulling the strings behind Cerberus. My Shepard is a Cerberus supporter, and he absolutely despises the Council and the alliance for what they did and didn't do in events leading up to the Reaper war. But if Cerberus is indoctrinated, there's really nothing he can do accept stop them from destabilizing the war effort.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Spectres are above the law and only the council can say otherwise (and they never do).

My Shepard doesn't give a damn about the law, Spectre or no.

And it seems that Spectre or no, the Council will turn against Shepard if he starts going against their interests.

That's why I don't put a lot of stock behind titles like Spectre. 

[IanPolaris]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Spectres are above the law and only the council can say otherwise (and they never do).

The first thing they do in ME2 is call for Shepard's execution so the Council's position on Shepard working with Cerberus is pretty clear

Yep and they go along with it as well unless Shepard overtly tells the council to go take a dive.  The council is well aware that spectres deal with people the council doesn't like and usually "they decide not to know".  In this case it was sort of shoved in their face.

I note that Vasir worked openly for the Shadowbroker to the point of open acts of terrorism on Asari worlds, but she (accurately) tells you that the council won't say 'boo'.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  The council's threat was entirely empty and everyone knew it.  The council has not issues with spectres dealing with scum as long as the council doesn't have to know about it.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 18 juin 2013 - 12:25 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

StreetMagic wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Kind of surprised that there haven't been a lot of white knight Cerberus haters in here yet.

As I said, due to bad writing, joining Cerberus makes no sense in ME3. It could have and should have made sense from an RP perspective, especially for my neutral Shepard who is more than willing to do very dark deeds, steel his compassion for civilians (as in become obtuse about their fate), and be utterly ruthless if it means stopping the Reapers. But none of that counts for **** for my Shepard if the Reapers are the ones pulling the strings behind Cerberus. My Shepard is a Cerberus supporter, and he absolutely despises the Council and the alliance for what they did and didn't do in events leading up to the Reaper war. But if Cerberus is indoctrinated, there's really nothing he can do accept stop them from destabilizing the war effort.

Well, joining Cerberus doesn't make much sense for a Sole Survivor Shep either in ME2, but that is pretty much ignored. I mean, it's not much different than Jack. They'd be pissed.

It's kind of gotten me from even playing that origin from now on.

Oddly enough, my Shepard is a Sole Survivor. He is untrustworthy at first, mostly agitated with what's going on and what's happening. It's also his personal sore point with Cerberus, the only experiment that he personally can't really justify, especially with what happened to Corporal Toombs. Which makes it all the more tragic what happens to Toombs in my headcanon/fanfiction... It's also one of the biggest tests in his relationship with Miranda, when he finds out about her involvement in that operation (headcanon). He finds that the woman that he's beginning to fall in love with may have had a lot to do with Akuze.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 18 juin 2013 - 12:39 .

[Hazegurl]

I wouldn't have minded joining Cerberus but I can't agree with TIM sabotaging the war based on one plan to control the reapers. with a threat like them it's logical to have multiple ways of dealing with them, not ruin one alternative to cling to one plan. Plus he was indoctrinated.

[In Exile]

Arcian wrote...

Cerberus shouldn't have existed in the first place.

It made no sense why Bio introduced them in ME2 at all, other than presumably because the shake-up of the writing team led them to want a different direction. 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I got the shortest interrogation in history with Kelham. I didn't lay a hand on him.

"I'm a Spectre. We're above the law. We don't answer to C-sec. Answer my questions, and we both be out of here without any trouble if you catch my drift. I heard you put a hit on someone. Who was it?"

Kelham: Joram! Joram Talid!

Shepard and Thane leave.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I got the shortest interrogation in history with Kelham. I didn't lay a hand on him.

"I'm a Spectre. We're above the law. We don't answer to C-sec. Answer my questions, and we both be out of here without any trouble if you catch my drift. I heard you put a hit on someone. Who was it?"

Kelham: Joram! Joram Talid!

Shepard and Thane leave.

My Shepard is going to do whatever the hell he wants to do, Spectre or no. He tells the Council where to shove it when they offer to reinstate him. 

Besides, my Shepard wants to make Kelham squirm. When it comes to torture, he understands that torture works best when it's performed for its own sake. He tortures Kelham, not for information, but because he gets some kicks out of it.

[IanPolaris]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I got the shortest interrogation in history with Kelham. I didn't lay a hand on him.

"I'm a Spectre. We're above the law. We don't answer to C-sec. Answer my questions, and we both be out of here without any trouble if you catch my drift. I heard you put a hit on someone. Who was it?"

Kelham: Joram! Joram Talid!

Shepard and Thane leave.

I love that scene.  There is a paragon equivalent if you did get the council to confirm your spectre status.  You can calmly put up with his B.S. until his lawyer arrives.  You then tell his lawyer, you are a spectre.  Kelham demands to know what that means, and the lawyer says, "It means I can't help you."

-Polaris

[Han Shot First]

Shepard shouldn't have even joined Cerberus in ME2, let alone ME3.

[David7204]

Cerberus brought too many good things to the story that would be very difficult to justify otherwise.

New Normandy, EDI, new squadmates, Shepard's resurrection...

[FlyingSquirrel]

IanPolaris wrote...
Spectre authority is pretty danged close as Capt Anderson explains at the start of ME1.  A Spectre can (and is expected) to blow up a room full of children if it's for the betterment of the galaxy.  Spectres are above the law and only the council can say otherwise (and they never do).

But they did with Saren - after he was proven to have been involved in the geth attack on Eden Prime, they revoked his status and sent Shepard after him.

That's assuming that Shepard actually did blow up the Alpha relay.  Not only that, but what proof do the Batarians really have?  If you did it right, the Batarians never saw you rescue Dr Kenson.  The evidence they have that it's Shepard at all is sketchy at best.  Not only that but officially Shepard is a rogue terrorist and the Alliance disavows.  The Batarians won't believe it, but who cares what the Batarians believe?

Maybe I wasn't clear - I was talking about a scenario in which Shepard did *not* blow up the Alpha relay, since the question was why (s)he is under arrest in ME3 in that case. What I'm suggesting is that, given the political fallout from the relay being destroyed and the Alliance being implicated, the Alliance would probably be under pressure to rein in their people and make a public display of contrition. That would conceivably include Shepard, whose bizarre return from the dead and association with criminals (if not Cerberus itself) seems to become public knowledge over the course of ME2. The Council is not likely to stick up for Shepard or insist on an exemption in this scenario either.

I'm not saying it was smart for the Alliance and the Council to handle it this way, just that I can think of a credible rationale for them to do it.

[Steelcan]

I agree wholeheartedly. Cut out the retarded indoctrinated part and Itd be a solid move.

[David7204]

No, it wouldn't.