145 réponses à ce sujet

[Fixers0]

The Narrative could have been easily more dynamic, i'll elborate later.

[IMNOTCRAZYiminsane]

wolfhowwl wrote...

Yes.

The change could have been largely cosmetic, instead of Admiral Hackett being your handler it would be TIM. Certain missions would be handled differently as would your relationships with certain companions.

I still expect he'd betray you, but he would do more intelligently than in ME3. Instead of unleashing Cerberus legions across the galaxy at the beginning of the game, he'd do something like have his commandos board the crucible to implement control while everyone is distracted in the final battle. The player could boot him and his boys off the crucible and restore the destroy functionality or agree and choose control.

The battles against Cerberus in the game could be filled by other indoctrinated factions like the Batarians or brainwashed members of occupied Earth's militaries. Or, gasp, enemies who aren't indoctrinated at all! For example the Tuchanka bomb mission could have been you fighting a Krogan clan that was just trying to recover the weapon for their own use. You have to go all death squad and leave no witnesses to preserve the Turian/Krogan alliance.

Thank you having more choices and different enemies to fight would have been great like in ME1 they have multiple enemies that were not Red,Blue, and Yellow or just Cerberus with a hint of Reaper on the side and a tiny piece of Geth More choices on the matter of picking between Cerberus and the Alliance by the end you have your choices explained nicely (not synthesis that ending needs help:sick:) If your Shepard dies depend on your choices of being a Cerberus person and keeping Miranda alive and doing her mission would have Cerberus rebuilted and work as the humans (STG) and other things can happen i don't want to think anymore of what could have been

[Jukaga]

It is a bit annoying how Cerberus gets tagged with the 'terrorist' label but STG and the Asari Commandos don't seem to get any negative publicity. Cerberus' experiments in ME1 are perfectly understandable given the context and are way less damaging to the galaxy than STG's uplift operations given the Krogan and their insane plans for the Yahg. It's only with ME3's inderptrination that they become out and out villains and most of us agree that Cerberus was poorly handled in that regard. They do good work and deserved better treatment in ME3.

[knightnblu]

"What kind of soldier looks at a camp that turns people into husks and goes, "Yeah, I want to help with that?"

Now we know.

[Jukaga]

knightnblu wrote...

"What kind of soldier looks at a camp that turns people into husks and goes, "Yeah, I want to help with that?"

Now we know.

You missed the part where I said Cerberus went full retard in ME3 didn't you? Their actions in ME1 and ME2 are almost universally defendable however.

[knightnblu]

First, my comment was targeted toward the thread in general and not at any specific individual. Second, all I know is that usually the scalded dog yelps first.

[AlexMBrennan]

It is a bit annoying how Cerberus gets tagged with the 'terrorist' label but STG and the Asari Commandos don't seem to get any negative publicity

Firstly this is a matter of legitimacy - the armed forces can legally use lethal force (e.g. war) in certain situations whilst random civilians may not.

Secondly, plenty of people do think that the Salerians deploying the genophage was not ok. That's fine.

They do good work and deserved better treatment in ME3.

What good work are you talking about? Experimenting on and killing kids to produce Jack? Blowing up eezo freighters to induce biotics in babies, causing an unknown number of deaths by cancer, etc?

Unfortunately for you, we are not living in Hitler Germany but a society where people have certain constitutional rights - including the right to not be murdered for some scientist's project.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

tickle267 wrote...

David7204 wrote...
Oh boy. A physics discussion on the BSN. I can't wait to hear this.
What 'actual physics' are you talking about, exactly?

Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.

Thanks for the codex summary.

Infrasonic noise = frequencies below 20 Hz. For one thing we can't hear them. We can only feel them. Do you know how large something has to be to generate such frequencies? Do you know the wavelengths? Do you know about standing waves? Do you know only very large rooms can actually carry sounds of those wavelengths? Or outdoors. 17 Hz is known to cause people to feel fear. 7 Hz is known as "the brown frequency" for I'll let you use your imagination. At high enough dB levels frequencies can cause physical damage. Many structures cannot withstand such frequencies at high levels. It is why buildings crumble in earthquakes. They become shockwaves. So at a low enough level not to cause physical damage, about the only frequency that would have any effect would be 17 Hz, and those "reaper indoctrination devices" we find are way too small to produce this frequency. They may produce a harmonic like say around 78 Hz or 156 Hz, but not 17 Hz. Not buying it. My degree is in Earth Science -- yes it's about 40 years old and I've forgotten a lot.

Electromagnetic Fields: A Faraday cage in the armor and helm can protect against this easily form of indoctrination. Your ship is a Faraday box. Scratch this.

Ultrasonic noise: very short range. We're talking feet at most. Sound absorption by exterior environmental surroundings depending upon how acoustically "live" a space is. People absorb sound. Carpet? Furniture? You've killed it. Plus something capable of producing these frequencies has to be anchored to something very rigid and solid, otherwise it won't produce the frequencies in high enough intensity to carry very far.

Plus it cannot be heard and will be disregarded by the senses. Case in point is the Nyquist noise on a CD. I can do dithering from 32 bit 192 kHz down to 16 bit 44.1 kHz and dump all of the dithering noise to 44.1 kHz and you won't hear it. You won't even notice it. I can put "I buried Paul" in that and you won't notice it is there. For most people you can set the Nyquist frequency at 22.05 kHz and they won't notice it. Their dogs will, but they won't. And there can be a lot of it. Of course audiophiles will insist they can tell. Audiophiles will insist they can tell the difference between speaker cables too, but in a double blind test they couldn't tell the difference between $5000/ft speaker cable and wire coat hangers -- This is actually true, but the link was lost on my old HD when it died. So I'll call this ultrasonic noise bunk.

I have done room treatment in my studio, David. This required acoustic analysis of the space. Do I know everything? No.

Of course in space only electromagnetic fields matter.

Indoctrination is used all the time in real life. Propaganda has been used since humans have been able to organize. It's pretty simple really repeat the big lie over and over again and people will believe it to be the truth. The bigger the lie the more likely it is that it will be successful, but it must be mixed in with truths and half truths. Those who do not believe as your group does are indoctrinated and outcast. People need to belong to a group because we are social creatures. You would be surprised how little people need to believe.

Indoctrination in Mass Effect is a space magic mook generator and nothing more.

So, if you want to pick this apart, David, go ahead. I know you're going to back up Super Mac anyway.

[Kataphrut94]

Jukaga wrote...

knightnblu wrote...

"What kind of soldier looks at a camp that turns people into husks and goes, "Yeah, I want to help with that?"

Now we know.

You missed the part where I said Cerberus went full retard in ME3 didn't you? Their actions in ME1 and ME2 are almost universally defendable however.

How? What's defendable about feeding soldiers to thresher maws to test the effect of feeding soldiers to thresher maws? Every one of their projects in ME1 & ME2 ended with whatever they were trying to do going rogue and killing everything.. Their projects were all pointlessly cruel (Pragia, Overlord) impractical (Lazarus, Omega) and never, ever ended in success. Even if *some* of their ideas were good, they are, and always were utterly, shockingly incompetent and anyone who claims the same of the Alliance, the Council or anyone else is deluded.

[Metallica93]

jtav wrote...

Except I didn't destroy the base.I gave it to Cerberus. The only way we're ever going to become ready for this technology is by using it. Nuclear weapons are incredibly dangerous, and it would be better if they were all gone. But that same technology eventually gave rise to nuclear reactors. Reaper technology is not actually magic. Indoctrination can be guarded against (Levitathan). We have to stop treating the stuff like it's some tainted evil artifact from a Tolkein ripoff.

Giving the Collector base to Cerberus after what the Illusive Man pulled in ME2? Ha! Not even close. I'd have blown it up out of pure spite. "You think you can play me? My turn." *detonate*

Nobody said anything about Reaper tech being 'magic.' I do believe, however, that we sure as hell weren't ready for technology thousands of years ahead of our own. Again, how soon after discovering element zero/the Mars outpost did we start making weapons? We're a danger to ourself sometimes.

*randomly looks at Shepard on the web page's background* Remind me how "omni-blades" are possible, again?

EDIT: Doh! Haven't played "Leviathan" yet. Me a stupid

Modifié par Metallica93, 20 juin 2013 - 08:24 .

[AlanC9]

Kataphrut94 wrote...


How? What's defendable about feeding soldiers to thresher maws to test the effect of feeding soldiers to thresher maws? Every one of their projects in ME1 & ME2 ended with whatever they were trying to do going rogue and killing everything.. Their projects were all pointlessly cruel (Pragia, Overlord) impractical (Lazarus, Omega) and never, ever ended in success. Even if *some* of their ideas were good, they are, and always were utterly, shockingly incompetent and anyone who claims the same of the Alliance, the Council or anyone else is deluded.

Don't overstate it. Lazarus worked, and the SR-2 was a success, though maybe neither project was cost-effective. And technically, all of ME2 is a Cerberus project..

[naes1984]

The way Cerberus is handled in this game is a big mistake. We shouldn't have had to spend 50% of the game dealing with them. They went from an organization of 150 agents in ME2 to the largest (best equipped) army in the universe within a year. Very little of the Cerberus storyline in ME3 makes sense or works. Making the Illusive man indoctrinated at the end was just lazy.

[Kataphrut94]

AlanC9 wrote...

Kataphrut94 wrote...


How? What's defendable about feeding soldiers to thresher maws to test the effect of feeding soldiers to thresher maws? Every one of their projects in ME1 & ME2 ended with whatever they were trying to do going rogue and killing everything.. Their projects were all pointlessly cruel (Pragia, Overlord) impractical (Lazarus, Omega) and never, ever ended in success. Even if *some* of their ideas were good, they are, and always were utterly, shockingly incompetent and anyone who claims the same of the Alliance, the Council or anyone else is deluded.

Don't overstate it. Lazarus worked, and the SR-2 was a success, though maybe neither project was cost-effective. And technically, all of ME2 is a Cerberus project..

I'll give you SR2 & the Collector Base, since the worst that can happen there is Shepard destroying the Collector base. Not Lazarus, that ended with (all together now) things going rogue and trying to kill everyone. Not even for a good reason; a scientist apparently wasn't being payed enough, so he sold them out and ruined everything! Did nobody tell Wilson that any financial problems or rival offers he currently has are going to be irrelevant once he's created a cure for death?

Much like Sanctuary, it's only slightly better because it managed to get a result before everything fell apart.

[Erez Kristal]

StreetMagic wrote...

Lazarus was a failure from the Cerberus point of view. The same person he resurrected ended up obliterating all of Cerberus' manpower and infrastructure. "All your base belong to us." Literally.

Cerberus was about saving humanity. in that aspect lazarus was a great success.

[Erez Kristal]

Kataphrut94 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Kataphrut94 wrote...


How? What's defendable about feeding soldiers to thresher maws to test the effect of feeding soldiers to thresher maws? Every one of their projects in ME1 & ME2 ended with whatever they were trying to do going rogue and killing everything.. Their projects were all pointlessly cruel (Pragia, Overlord) impractical (Lazarus, Omega) and never, ever ended in success. Even if *some* of their ideas were good, they are, and always were utterly, shockingly incompetent and anyone who claims the same of the Alliance, the Council or anyone else is deluded.

Don't overstate it. Lazarus worked, and the SR-2 was a success, though maybe neither project was cost-effective. And technically, all of ME2 is a Cerberus project..

I'll give you SR2 & the Collector Base, since the worst that can happen there is Shepard destroying the Collector base. Not Lazarus, that ended with (all together now) things going rogue and trying to kill everyone. Not even for a good reason; a scientist apparently wasn't being payed enough, so he sold them out and ruined everything! Did nobody tell Wilson that any financial problems or rival offers he currently has are going to be irrelevant once he's created a cure for death?

Much like Sanctuary, it's only slightly better because it managed to get a result before everything fell apart.

The shadow broker had more name for himself than cerberus back then. 
Wilson plan was going to making it off the station was going to succeed if he wasnt betrayed by the Shadow broker aswell... we also dont know what kind of leverage the shadow broker had on him.

having the lzarus program under attack by the shadow broker made sense.

[Erez Kristal]

StreetMagic wrote...

Someone might've already mentioned this, but it just dawned on me that maybe the reason TIM went full retard and full control is because he realized his mistake with Shepard. He's the one that talked Miranda out of not putting a control chip in Shepard (a fact she later regrets thinking of.. the tables turn). His worst mistake was not controlling Shep. So what does he do? He goes crazy and creates an army of colonist shocktroopers grafted with reaper tech. He teams up with Miranda's father, another control freak. And it's all because of you. It goes to show though - there was once a time when he had a good side and could play fair. Except it blew up in his face.

It doesn't help that he lost control of EDI too.

Thats not why he went full control.
he needed shepard to be just as he was, so he gave him freedom.

Most mooks he transformed with control chips he need to perform simple tasks. some of them were nothing more than colonies who never faced better before. due to those chips they turned into harden soldiers willing to face an enemy no matter the odds.
He teamed with miranada father because he was the best in the business. just look at miranda 
 Shes perfect. 

[Dextro Milk]

erezike wrote...

 just look at miranda, shes perfect. 

Her teeth sure aren't... 



Edit for better picture.

Modifié par Dextro Milk, 20 juin 2013 - 02:46 .

[CronoDragoon]

StreetMagic wrote...

Lazarus was a failure from the Cerberus point of view. The same person he resurrected ended up obliterating all of Cerberus' manpower and infrastructure. "All your base belong to us." Literally.

But when Shepard points this out, TIM says it was worth it to produce the Control option. If Shepard chooses Control, isn't TIM feeling posthumously justified? I don't think TIM was just a selfish bastard who wanted power, I think he legitimately thought his way was the best path forward for humanity. In that sense, Control means Lazarus was totally worth the money, and I think TIM would be happy with the result, if he didn't have a bullet in his brain.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 20 juin 2013 - 02:52 .