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[Ophir147]

Playing through Awakening and realizing how much of a gem of a character Justice was. He has a completely alien point of view in the beginning, viewing mortals and the "human condition" with a sort of detached pity. However, he eventually becomes one of the most brilliant characters in the game, if only due to his goosebumps-inducing lines such as

"This world has fingerprints upon fringerprints, witness to beings long dead."

"A world so full of beauty that beauty goes overlooked."

"We were wrong about this world. There is beauty here... and the mortals, they are worth saving."

Justice is just about the best character I can imagine to play a major role in not only the Mage-Templar War (Inquisition) but also the rest of Thedas altogether. He stands as not only a grim reminder of a world that naturally breeds conflict, but also bears a unique, positive perspective that helps to remind the player that, no matter how dark the world gets, it is full of beauty and people that, despite their faults, are worth saving.

--Spoilers for DA2 Ahead, Big Time--

On the subject of his possession of Anders (if we choose to believe that Justice was the "friend" that possessed him), well, yeah that sucks. Especially since I killed Anders and I stand by that decision. But has it been explicitly stated that when a spirit's host is killed, that the spirit itelf dies? Although the epilogues may be regarded as hearsay and rumors, it seems that Justice was able to leave the body of Kristoff when his mission was through and escape unscathed, (spiritually?) healthy enough to hop bodies over to Anders where he was transformed into Vengeance.

If he were to leave Anders' body at the time of his murder-knifing, would there be a chance that he would be able to leave, perhaps even returning to his previous personality (Justice, rather than Vengeance), and possess a different body (one of the numerous corpses created by the Mage Massacre) or even reanimate the corpse of Anders himself, this time as Justice inhabiting his body instead of Anders+Justice=Vengeance. It would serve to give the most important (?) decision in DA2 an interesting consequence, with Anders-Vengeance being alive in one continuity and and Justice being alive in the other.

Either way, I doubt his fascination and affection for the world of mortals would let him realistically sit back on his haunches in the fade, especially with all of the wrongdoing occurring on both sides of the war.

TL;DR: Justice is a criminally underrated character and I would love to know about what you guys think about his part in future Dragon Age games, or even if you would like him to be there.

[Lokiwithrope]

I don't think he can come back. He's warped. Mutated. Changed.

[Lokiwithrope]

Oops. Double post.

Modifié par Lokiwithrope, 18 juin 2013 - 12:11 .

[Ophir147]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Unfortunately, Justice merged with Anders and lost everything interesting about himself in the process. So I doubt we'll ever get that Justice again.

I suppose one of the questions I was attempting to ask is whether Justice was changed into Vengeance solely because of Anders' influence, and whether he would be able to return to normal once Anders was dead.

[JWvonGoethe]

Ophir147 wrote...

If he were to leave Anders' body at the time of his murder-knifing, would there be a chance that he would be able to leave, perhaps even returning to his previous personality (Justice, rather than Vengeance), and possess adifferent body (one of the numerous corpses created by the Mage Massacre) or even reanimate the corpse of Anders himself, this time as Justice inhabiting his body instead of Anders+Justice=Vengeance. It would serve to give the most important (?) decision in DA2 an interesting consequence, with Anders-Vengeance being alive in one continuity and and Justice being alive in the other.

That's what I've been hoping the result of the Anders import decision from DA2 will be in Inquisition. Justice was a really interesting and unique companion in Awakening and it would make sense (at least to me) to see him again in Inquisition if you killed Anders.

The other repercussion of killing Anders I'd like to see is that he's turned into some kind of martyr and a symbol of freedom for the mages, in addition to unlocking some kind of quest with Justice. If he's alive, I'd like to be able to put him on trial and either expose him as a confused madman or find him innocent, deciding to let him go free on the grounds that he acted heroically to free the mages from oppression.

Modifié par JWvonGoethe, 18 juin 2013 - 12:40 .

[Lavaeolus]

Anders may have changed him into Vengeance, but simply removing Anders does not fix it now. For instance: say you rival Anders. Anders doesn't want to blow the Chantry up. But the spirit does it against his will, possessing him. Anders' hate for mages has become part of Justice now. The lines are not so cleanly divided that splitting them would make them back into those original two beings.

It's sad that it happened to Justice, but it did. I doubt there's a nice quick, easy way back now.

Modifié par Mr Maniac, 18 juin 2013 - 12:48 .

[JWvonGoethe]

Well, whether you were to meet either Justice or Vengeance in spirit form, both could be equally interesting.

[NoForgiveness]

I don't think justice himself changed. I think "vengeance" was the person that justice and anders made when combined. does that make sense? so if one of them die the other might go back to normal, but they will be left scared by the other.

[electricfish]

There is no indication that spirits (once melded into a living host) can leave or otherwise "detach" themselves from the host. Source: The Grand Oak, Uldred (by not jumping into another mage body).
Justice leaving Kristoff's body is not a special case because Kristoff was dead. It is only an empty shell. Sophia from Warden's Keep is just a dead body with a spirit inside of it.

Once Justice possessed Anders, there ceased to be a Justice. The influence of Anders' living body and emotional/psychological state caused Justice to take on his anger towards templars to become Vengeance. Spirits are not like people. They take on an aspect of emotion/philosophy/whatever and become the entirety of what it is. Desire demons don't decide one day to become rage or sloth entities. Compassion doesn't decide to become Hope. It takes a person to cause such a dramatic shift in a spirit's identity, and because of their sensitivity and one dimensional-ness, they can become demons if that person's negative emotions overtake their positive ones.

Justice could have continued to be Justice, but Anders himself said he had too much anger. Focused anger towards a thing or concept is...vengeance. And Vengeance took over Anders in that 10 year period, despite Anders trying to fight to retain himself.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

We have from Gaider that whether or not we believe Justice was freed by killing Anders, neither of them will be back if you killed him. So, I suppose we'll never know really.

[The Red Onion]

Of all the mages Justice could have possessed, he chose someone really lazy who just doesn't think big.

Anders only had a great first impression in DA1 only because he was far less venomous than Morrigan, and at least had the decency to not disapprove -10 every time you gave half a cent to the homeless.

But listening in on Anders vs Justice banters in DA1, my vote went to Justice whenever they disagree. I actually really like Anders in 2 (in before flaming), but all the good quirks were due to the effects of Justice. It was great on a first playthrough, but the deeper I think, the deeper I feel deprived b/c you actually cannot side with Justice over Anders, because due to some deus ex machina, Justice is forced to play the negative role.

Despite that though, Wynne and Anders actually have quite a bit of overlap in motif, right up to the point where the narrative forced Anders to do what he did.

What I saw seemed like a thinly disguised device that straps a very particular set of values onto a single person, and then brute-forcing that person to err horrendously in a way that absolutely can't stopped. It effectively generates a foreclosed insinuation that the values said character represents are wrong. Just my taste, perhaps?

Sympathization for the mages are being systematically purged as the story progress; sure you can choose any side, but I can't shake the feeling that in the mind of the authors, choosing a certain side is choosing to be wrong.

Modifié par alexbing88, 18 juin 2013 - 05:33 .

[NoForgiveness]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

We have from Gaider that whether or not we believe Justice was freed by killing Anders, neither of them will be back if you killed him. So, I suppose we'll never know really.

I thought he said Anders is 100% dead but justice may show up?

[Tinu]

MR_PN wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

We have from Gaider that whether or not we believe Justice was freed by killing Anders, neither of them will be back if you killed him. So, I suppose we'll never know really.

I thought he said Anders is 100% dead but justice may show up?

You are correct, MR.

[NRieh]

There is no indication that spirits (once melded into a living host) can leave or otherwise "detach" themselves from the host.

You are forgetting about "minor" detail, which is a big gap directly into Fade in the skies. I even started a thread about it. Somehow I don't see it impossible for Justice to leave Anders if given a chance to return back home. Not saying it's entirely harmless for both, but still possible and, may be, not lethal. Normally spirit trapped within our world can not return back. But in DAI we have anything but "normally", imo. So, all sorts of sith may happen.

As for Justice as a character - I enjoyed both him and Anders in DAA and I love all of Ju-nders DA2 arc. I don't think that merging somehow "killed" either Justice or Anders as a character, it looked quite natural to me.

Even if the two had good intentions when this idea came to one of them - none could see what was coming. One was inexperienced alien creature, that did not even know why people may love cats, another - young mage on the run, that used each and every opportunity to fight for his freedom.

Do you remember how he accepted becoming a Warden? It was like "Cool! Now I can tell all the templars to FO", no worries about taint or darkspawn at all. I think it was pretty much same with Justice. "Oh, cool, now I will screw templars even more, and Justice is a nice spirit".

But things did not go well. Justice underestimated dangers of presence within a living human, effected by all the emotions, fears and passions, Anders underestimated how deep and genuine his hatred to templars and Circles actually was.

[Albertiko101]

If you are Anders rival and persuade him to join the templar cause, in the gallows he reveals, that he hopes to mage rebellion will spread across thedas, but without him, he says he needs to die, so that vengeance could be free, or even he could become justice as he was after that he says that Hawke has been his best friend.
So I think Justice would return if he can't feel Anders' rage about the mages situation.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

MR_PN wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

We have from Gaider that whether or not we believe Justice was freed by killing Anders, neither of them will be back if you killed him. So, I suppose we'll never know really.

I thought he said Anders is 100% dead but justice may show up?

I do not remember entirely. Oh well. Anders depends on having not died, then.

[ElissaHowe]

I liked Justice as a character too. One thing that crossed my mind in the DA2 Justice/Anders story was whether Justice had actually been affected by Anders' taint?
In a similar way to the Old Gods become archdemons when affected by the darkspawn taint, was Justice corrupted by the taint in Anders' Grey Warden blood?
After all, Wynne's Spirit of Faith did not suffer from a similar issue?
Thoughts?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Wynne's spirit can turn on you during the Sacred Ashes quest. I don't think it was just her faith that causes Wynne to try and kill you for desecrating it.

Spirits are dangerous and even benign ones (if there is such a thing) alter your being.

Well now, Leiliana had no such spirit in her. (I think. I mean, it hasn't been demonstrated.) So as far as we know, it was her own faith that drives her to this, not a spirit. Therefore, Wynne might have done what she did anyway.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Well now, Leiliana had no such spirit in her. (I think. I mean, it hasn't been demonstrated.) So as far as we know, it was her own faith that drives her to this, not a spirit. Therefore, Wynne might have done what she did anyway.

Maybe (though Leliana already believes the Maker spoke to her so she's a bit into her faith) but Wynne having a spirit of faith inside her and then choosing to go ballistic at that moment does raise my eyebrows.

Any non-Alistair Templar would have done the same, really. It doesn't require a spirit. As for Wynne, she tells you that part of her acceptance of the Tower is that one of the priests was nice to her. Maybe that has something to do with it? It might just as well be the spirit, I'm just saying that there's plausible alternative reasons.