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[Bleachrude]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Quick question BSN!  During the course of ME3, did anyone really ever get the feeling that Shepard or Shepard's squad mates were in any real danger?

Did you ever feel that by taking too long, or by making a bad decision you could potentially bring disaster down upon yourself or your allies?

If so, could you provide examples of key moments which made you feel truly uneasy or at risk?

In all honesty, ME3 has the most "oh crap" decision moments in the series.

Rannoch. I remember BSN when ME3 first came out and this scene happened. There were MULTIPLE threads about "Oh no, I killed off Tali/Legion, what did I do wrong!!!!".

Grunt. Pretty much everyone thought he was deadduring that scene and there were AGAIN multiple posts about "how do I save Grunt"

Faking the cure with Wrex alive. There's of course the fact that you have to shoot Mordin to stop him but even worse, the fact that you have to kill Wrex afterwards?

All 3 of those were moments where I thought the decision was going to be end badly somehow....

There's also a few "wait, you picked that option" in ME3 as well. Authorizing the PTSD asari to have a weapon, picking the paragon option with Keely Chambes and Javik also will result in their deaths...

[CronoDragoon]

Necanor wrote...

Yeah, but imagine this: you're alone off world and earth gets destroyed, killing every human being besides yourself. Every friend, family member, neighbour, heck Jeff the cashier at the drugstore are all dead. What would you do?

That's impossible to answer, since none of us can project our mental state in such a situation, but from where I'm standing right now my answer is, "Not kill myself."

Edit: I'm not saying it doesn't make sense after the fact, but I'm calling BS on the idea that people were going, "If I side with the geth I bet all the quarians will die leading to Tali killing herself without giving Shepard an opportunity to save her."

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 18 juin 2013 - 05:10 .

[ElSuperGecko]

Bleachrude wrote...
In all honesty, ME3 has the most "oh crap" decision moments in the series.

Rannoch. I remember BSN when ME3 first came out and this scene happened. There were MULTIPLE threads about "Oh no, I killed off Tali/Legion, what did I do wrong!!!!"...

Not quite what I was meaning.

A lot of the deaths listed above are a result of direct player decision - you choose to shoot Mordin; to side with the Geth or the Quarians, oyu choose to offer advice to Chambers or not etc.  Sure, the consequences of these decisions have a profound effect, but they don't instill a sense of player jeopardy or dread.  You make the call, you have to live with it.

I guess I was more talking through general play;  there were very few situations during the game where I felt me or mine were genuinely at risk.  Whether this is down to the actual game mechanics (it's impossible to lose a squadmate for good in actual combat; only via dialogue choices or interrupts)  removing the feeling of threat, I don't know.  I'm not saying it would be a good idea for it to be possible to lose squadmates for good in combat; just that it detracts from the drama.  The closest I probably got to feeling overwhelmed during an actual combat sequence would be during the Tutchanka finale or the clone battle in Citadel.

Grunt's last stand is a good example of cut-scene drama, though - when I saw that sequence I genuinely thought that was it for the big guy.

[AlanC9]

Bleachrude wrote...

Grunt. Pretty much everyone thought he was deadduring that scene and there were AGAIN multiple posts about "how do I save Grunt"

Right. Head-fakes count if the player bought them.

[The Night Mammoth]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Grunt's last stand is a good example of cut-scene drama, though - when I saw that sequence I genuinely thought that was it for the big guy.

This too, come to think of it. I also thought Grunt was about to sacrifice himself.

The Suicide Mission isn't in ME3, obviously, but I still feel nervous playing it. I never quite feel safe about my preparation, there's always the nagging doubt that something gonna go wrong and Tali will get blasted in the face or Samara will get carried off by Seeker Swarms.

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 18 juin 2013 - 06:30 .

[AlanC9]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

I guess I was more talking through general play;  there were very few situations during the game where I felt me or mine were genuinely at risk.  Whether this is down to the actual game mechanics (it's impossible to lose a squadmate for good in actual combat; only via dialogue choices or interrupts)  removing the feeling of threat, I don't know.  I'm not saying it would be a good idea for it to be possible to lose squadmates for good in combat; just that it detracts from the drama.  The closest I probably got to feeling overwhelmed during an actual combat sequence would be during the Tutchanka finale or the clone battle in Citadel.

I don't think Bio's done a game where you could lose a companion permanently in gameplay since BG2. I think Gaider once said it was pointless since everyone reloads anyway.

[KaiserShep]

The suicide mission was the only time I really felt nervous about character peril, and as I refused to read ahead to spoil anything, I was kind of in the dark as to who to send. I thought Legion seemed like an obvious choice, being a machine that can hack stuff, but the fire team leader had me thinking for a moment, because Jack's protest and Garrus shaking his head made me unsure of whether or not I should pick Miranda. I just decided to have her be part of my squad and picked Garrus to lead, since he was really the only character I could see my Shepard trusting over these other jokers.

[Samtheman63]

of course, especially when im exploring the galaxy in the normandy and the reapers start to chase me

[KaiserShep]

Sigh, that'll always be the silliest danger element, because you shouldn't have to send out a pinging wave to detect something on the planet. Just point and click and short range sensors would pick up an anomaly.

[AlanC9]

If the anomaly gave out something that passive sensors could detect, that is.

I always figured that the Galaxy Map operated at a very high abstraction level anyway, so I didn't worry too much about the details.

[chemiclord]

CRPG's never really capture that "race against time" feeling well... because the people who prefer that genre WANT to take their time and tool around. They don't like feeling that they HAVE to get [x] done within [y] amount of time.

ME3 trying to create the illusion of such (with some missions like Grissom Academy becoming unavailable if you did too many other missions) worked somewhat for me... but that atmosphere didn't seem to set well with the BSN community as a whole.

[Bleachrude]

chemiclord wrote...

CRPG's never really capture that "race against time" feeling well... because the people who prefer that genre WANT to take their time and tool around. They don't like feeling that they HAVE to get [x] done within [y] amount of time.

ME3 trying to create the illusion of such (with some missions like Grissom Academy becoming unavailable if you did too many other missions) worked somewhat for me... but that atmosphere didn't seem to set well with the BSN community as a whole.

I actually thought that was a nice compromise...you can "tool" around to your heart's content but as long as you don't make any progress in the main story, the side missions are still available...

[chemiclord]

Bleachrude wrote...

I actually thought that was a nice compromise...you can "tool" around to your heart's content but as long as you don't make any progress in the main story, the side missions are still available...

It somewhat worked for me for that reason... even though as I was halfway across the galaxy looking for some odd fetch thing I kept getting this scenario playing in my head.

Cerberus Soldier (tapping his foot impatiently and looking at his omni-tool): Alright, where is he?

Jack: He shoulda be here two hours ago, ****.  Can ya just hold up for a bit?

Cerberus Soldier: Listen, babe, I've got to get the husks back from day care by 6, then I gotta get this armor cleaned for when the boss does his inspections tomorrow.  I'm not made of time here.

Jack: It's not even noon.  Chill, ****nuts.

Cerberus Soldier: Alright.  Fine.  Jeez, woman.  We'll give him another three hours, but after that, me and the boys here are just gonna have to process all of ya, okay?

[knightnblu]

There really wasn't any stressors prompting a feeling of urgency. There was a trailer for ME3 where Shepard was aboard the Normandy choosing who lives and who dies and it ended with Shepard denying one request for immediate aid and leaving them to the Reapers. I honestly thought that would be the atmosphere of the game. I was wrong.

There was humor, but very little dark humor. There was urgency, but that was episodic and brief. There were intense moments of danger, but nothing overriding that would push you to quicken your step. I think that is one of the story points that BioWare failed. Don't get me wrong, there are most definitely moments in game that they hit it out of the park, but the game atmosphere should have been darker and heavier.

Where were the suicides from people who were terrified of the coming end? Sure, that colony set of nukes, but that was the only incident. When I walked the Citadel you didn't get the impression that people were frightened or anxious. Even refund guy was still at it, working his shtick. That doesn't make the player feel any particular sense of danger or urgency.

If you watch movies with cities being bombed you don't see people standing around having conversations and dancing. You see them scared out of their minds and hiding in holes. There was none of this in ME3 and there should have been. Especially as the Reapers drew the noose tighter around the galaxy's collective throat.

It would have helped had BioWare not taken such a broad approach to the missions and placed such a heavy focus on Cerberus. It also would have helped if you heard the horror stories from refugees that escaped the Reapers. Or if we would have been sent on rescue missions to retrieve data, technology, or personnel within Reaper controlled areas.

Overall, you never got the feeling that you were in a real war for the galaxy's survival until you reach Earth and that illustrates my point and that of the OP.

[AlanC9]

Amazing how evenly this board is divided between the "too dark" and the " not dark enough" factions.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Actually Gears of War had a better written plot for an apocalyptic setting. It was far darker. It was tighter, and Sera was under siege like the galaxy was under siege. As the reapers tightened the noose we should have seen things get darker, but we were really isolated from it all on board our ship and on the Citadel.

We saw a little of it on Thessia. We were on the MOON of Palaven. We spent a little bit of time on Earth, but we spent most of the time fighting Cerberus (Tuchanka) or Geth (Rannoch). We weren't stranded on Earth or doing several missions against reaper forces on a single planet seeing the ruined buildings, perhaps escorting alien refugees or rescuing an important person who was trapped in a building, and having to make a choice of the important person and saving maybe 100 people who were trapped, or figuring out a way to save both (timed). The game was sanitized. Too clean. I thought it needed to be a lot grittier. It needed some Gears of War and some Max Payne. But gritty isn't Bioware's forte. The dark Normandy was gritty? Ha!

Now this doesn't mean the ending. The ending just plain sucked. This is the final installment in Shepard's story. This is where you give closure to Shepard. I think this is where a triumph over the darkness is very important. I may be considered a "hopeless romantic" because of this belief, but people need hope. They're not getting it in their everyday lives. You give it to them in their entertainment. Video games are part of that. The story can be dark and as bleak as hell but end the story so that they can find a way to defeat the enemy, not work out a compromise.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Not too much but -- the first time around -- the Citadel Coup had me sweating at the palms and everything.


I was legit nervous, thinking maybe Cerberus takes out the Council and VS or something like that.

[Teddie Sage]

Gonna be honest. Nope. Not one bit.

[MrFob]

Oh come on. I think asking this from ME3 is a bit unfair to be honest. I mean, after ME1 and 2, we all knew that ME3 wasn't suddenly going to turn into a loosing scenario during the game (which ironically is exactly what happened, see below).

As Julia said, fighting so much Cerberus and Geth was not exactly a great choice but there were definitely moments where you got a good look at how bad the situation really is. Also, reading the planet descriptions in the GM goes a long way in giving you picture of how screwed everyone really is.

But it was clear that Shepard and party would make it to the end. I mean, that's what this space epic was all about right?
Still, the first time I played through the game, when I saw all the fleets arrive at earth and engaging the reapers, I literally sat in front of my monitor and cheered them on - loudly. Never did that before for any form of fiction. That was how engaging the whole situation was for me after 5 years. Even though I was sure of what would eventually happen, even though I never felt like I could be really doomed (because let's face it, the ME trilogy story uses archetypes very deliberately), I was absolutely invested emotionally at that point.
And now comes the kicker: The only real feeling of jeopardy, doom and despair, I had after the ending. To use the words of an ME character: What a kick in the quad!

[Wolfva2]

If you want a REAL jeapordy moment in ME....

<catalyst goes through his spiel, Shepard lurches to the console and makes his choice>
BWAAH BWAHHHHHHHH
Catalyst: I'm sorry Commander Shepard, but you didn't answer in the form of a question. You forfeit the game.

[AlanC9]

Q came pretty close to doing that in the TNG finale, actually.

[Nightwriter]

I definitely felt a sense of mounting desperation throughout the game, and I definitely worried for the characters, yeah.

I only played the game through once, so forgive me while I struggle to remember.

A lot of it came from news reports and things I overheard, I will admit. However, these were done so well imo that their effect on me was still pretty intense. Hearing about Joker's sister, listening to the traumatized asari's story in the Citadel hospital (connecting the dots was also pretty horrifying), reading Codex entries about the genocide of millions, the krogan poet's last poem to the Blue Rose of Illium lady, listening to that older woman who's mind was going talking to the clerk... I really can't count them all. I can say I waited on tenterhooks for news of Garrus's family, and that every time I went to the comm room I was kind of like "ANDERSON YOU'RE STILL ALIVE RIGHT? ANDERSON!"

As you may notice, most of those examples don't involve direct danger to the major characters. However, I felt my fair share of worry for them too.

I remember worrying about Mordin's life (and Wrex's) throughout the genophage arc. I was pretty nervous about my handling of it because I knew their fates would be intertwined with my decision. After I cured the genophage -- and it was a very tough choice -- I recall feeling a sense of anxiety about losing salarian aid in the war. I worried how much it would cost me. I also remember fearing that one of my decisions had killed Grunt. Miranda could die so easily I was a bit obsessive about doing all the right things. And rarely have I mashed a button harder than I did during the interrupt in Samara's almost-suicide scene.

[Hey]

www.youtube.com/watch