167 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Nightdragon8 wrote...
Have to ask the question tho. If you couldn't change the armor/weapon to whatever "You" want would that not make it an RPG anymore? Granted it would tick off a mark in the "What an RPG is" list but its not that major.

It is major for me, if the "iconic" appearance looks silly to me. Those supposedly "small" things like Fenris picking up a glass of wine in an armored glove, they catapult me right out of the world. I'm fine with restrictions, as long they let me influence a character's appearance to what I think is appropriate for the occasion. If my reaction to a characters appearance in any given situation is "I can't believe they would wear such a thing in these circumstances", then there is a problem. For instance, iconic appearances are made to be eye-catching, but there are situations where exactly that is implausible within the world.

In short, I'm adamantly against "form over function" design. An outfit can and should be aesthetically pleasing (or ugly if appropriate), but only insofar as that doesn't impede its function. If it does, then I want to change it, and I'll complain if the game doesn't let me. Artistic license does not justify picking up a glass of wine in an armored glove.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 juin 2013 - 08:03 .

[Plaintiff]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
They're all player characters.  Everyone in the party is a player character.  The player controls them; they're player characters.

But they aren't. You don't control what they say or do or think, you react to them and they react to you, but you don't control them. For all intents and purposes, they're essentially being controlled by other players that are not you.

We get to make personal decisions for the main character.  How is that any different?

The main character is your avatar in the game world. You chose his occupation, appearance, and to a certain extent, his personality and background.

Every relevant character in the game is a fully independent adult.  They're all capable of making their own decisions.  In DA2, Hawke made his own decisions.  And Varric made his.  And Merrill made hers.

Yes, and of those three examples, the player could only tell one of them what to wear.

In DAO, the Warden made his own decisions.  And Alistair made his.  And Morrigan made hers.

What (completely arbitrary) line are you trying to draw?

It's not any less arbitrary than your ridiculous standards, and I'm not even accusing Bioware of "failing" as a producer of RPGs if they don't meet mine. Either the characters are capable of making independant decisions, including what to wear, and the mechanics support that. Or they are not.

[Nightdragon8]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Nightdragon8 wrote...
Have to ask the question tho. If you couldn't change the armor/weapon to whatever "You" want would that not make it an RPG anymore? Granted it would tick off a mark in the "What an RPG is" list but its not that major.

It is major for me, if the "iconic" appearance looks silly to me. Those supposedly "small" things like Fenris picking up a glass of wine in an armored glove, they catapult me right out of the world. I'm fine with restrictions, as long they let me influence a character's appearance to what I think is appropriate for the occasion. If my reaction to a characters appearance in any given situation is "I can't believe they would wear such a thing in these circumstances", then there is a problem. For instance, iconic appearances are made to be eye-catching, but there are situations where exactly that is implausible within the world.

In short, I'm adamantly against "form over function" design. An outfit can and should be aesthetically pleasing (or ugly if appropriate), but only insofar as that doesn't impede its function. If it does, then I want to change it, and I'll complain if the game doesn't let me. Artistic license does not justify picking up a glass of wine in an armored glove.

Lets take your Fenris example, Honestly I don't know what material it was he was using as armor... Honestly it didnt really look all that tough at all, so hen able able to pick up things may not that be unbelievable, also considering his ability I wouldn't doubt he needs thin gloves to use it.

I understand what you are talking about its called Immersion. Some people like it other don't care. You fall into that catagory.

Me I'm more on the I don't care, side because. "its a game"

if it where real life, I would more than likly wear Leather/cloth armor and be an archer,

Also just because its a "glass of wine" and just because "its an armored glove" doesn't make it into an robotic superhuman strength robot arm. It still requires alot strength to break a bottle with your hands, armored or not.

Heck there are some bottles of wine that don't even break when smashed against a Steel ship. So it would ALL be dependent of the glass maker. And considering the rarity of the wine. I wouldn't doubt that it would be alittle thicker than normal. Also it was a cutscene, and he may not even have anything else to change into, I mean he was an Elf, and on the run, he couldn't even pay Hawke if he wanted to.

Now justifactions aside. considering you took that quote completely out of context, and honestly didn't even answer the question.

Also, if you had to micro-manage the clothes of EVERY cutscene would you? I wouldn't  takes too much time, and it would break the Immertion, I mean think about it get a gui meage "Would you like to change there armor?"

Also, in DA:O you can change into and out of armor in a split second. I mean I know some armors shoudl take at least an hour with people helping you to get into. But nope you can go from naked in a loincloth to fully in Massive armor in a blink of an eye.

There is a point where we must draw the line and "Hand wave" stuff.

As for the age old question of Fashion vs Function. Honestly i say screw it, the game should be fun and nice to look at.

[Ieldra]

@Nightdragon:
Fenris' glove is heavy metal armor, and the issue isn't that he couldn't pick up a glass with those gloves. The issue is that he wouldn't. He wouldn't even wear his armor in his home all the time. Hawke at least gets to wear civilian clothing at home. Companions should do likewise. It's ok if the game does it and I don't get to influence it (as is the case with Hawke), as long as the result is plausible (which it is with Hawke). Fenris wearing heavy armor at home all the time is not. Apostate mage Hawke wearing mage robes and a staff while walking the city is not. Characters wearing iconic outfits while on a supposedly secret mission is most emphatically not.

Of course I want customization. Everyone does. But I *need* it only if the game defaults break my suspension of disbelief.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 juin 2013 - 10:47 .

[mikeymoonshine]

Well this topic has certainly escalated into a rather ridiculous argument so I suppose i will wade in.

I don't really agree with the Iconic look/ cosplay argument. Allot of the origins characters where wearing pretty generic outfits to begin with it was only really Morrigan who had an obvious look clothing wise. People associate her with that look and cosplay as her like that. The fact that you can change her outfit didn't really take away from it.

If you give every character their own personal outfit that can be leveled up with them or improved with runes or something the the players who don't care about dressing up their companions will probably never bother to change that anyway.

Having the option to change the Armour doesn't necessarily detract from the characters individual look outside the game.

Taking away options from a player is not really a good idea unless there are good reasons for it.

Also your companions may not be your player character but they are at least partially your characters. you can customize their abilities, Weapons, Tactics.

Why does allowing you to change their clothing make it not their choice? they aren't real people you are only role playing them as people. Not everyone roleplays their player character as themselves they roleplay them as a character who makes his or own choices and you are just playing as that character.

So basically I think it should be in the game and it probably will be.

[Patchwork]

The system proposed in the blog sounds like a lot of extra work just so BW can keep an certain look for their companion npcs. I really don't understand why an iconic look matters. Leliana was still Leliana despite being put into normal leather armour as soon as she joins the party, she never wore that chantry robe again.

Why not have a default outfit that levels with the companion with stats they believe are most fitting character wise and if a player decides to put them in something else they get the bog standard npc body along with it?

Bioware get their oh so important iconic look but options aren't taken away from the player.

[AresKeith]

Technically the argument they are having ties into the topic, but Plaintiff seems to think being able to change or alter companions armor and outfits means we gain full control of them

[mikeymoonshine]

Plus Hawke had an "Iconic look with the Champion armors that you spend the majority of the game (and for some all of it) not wearing. But people still cosplay as hawke based on that look.

Giving a player the option to change outfits in game does not dame the "Iconic look"

[Little Princess Peach]

I wish they had this in da:2 or at least change the npc's armor over time so it looks like time has passed in the regards to wardrobe

[Plaintiff]

AresKeith wrote...

Technically the argument they are having ties into the topic, but Plaintiff seems to think being able to change or alter companions armor and outfits means we gain full control of them

Uh, no.

[mikeymoonshine]

AresKeith wrote...

Technically the argument they are having ties into the topic, but Plaintiff seems to think being able to change or alter companions armor and outfits means we gain full control of them

i just meant it's kind of becoming pointless now but i'm gonna give my opinion anyway because I am opinionated. 

[Abraham_uk]

I never understood the whole "heavy armor but no shoes" look that Fenris had.

I thought the point of being bare foot in combat was being light on your feet.
But how can you be light on your feet if you're wearing heavy armor?

[garrusfan1]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Who cares, I want my companions to actually change their clothes at least once during six years.

That'd be cool. As long as they were the ones who made the change.

I admit, I do love Merrill's wardrobe change if you romance her.<3

to each is own but I thought she looked ridiculous. the character that had the best change in outfit if you romance them was anders I think

[Kalas Magnus]

Yes.

You'll wear what I tell you to wear Morrigan. And you will like it.

[mikeymoonshine]

[/quote]

I admit, I do love Merrill's wardrobe change if you romance her.<3

to each is own but I thought she looked ridiculous. the character that had the best change in outfit if you romance them was anders I think[/quote]

Seconded, It looked awful 

I never romanced her in a completed playthrough though so meh :/. 

Modifié par mikeymoonshine, 19 juin 2013 - 02:39 .

[WillPF363]

Kalas Magnus wrote...

Yes.

You'll wear what I tell you to wear Morrigan. And you will like it.

"If one more person asks me if I would like a change of clothes, I will set the house on fire!"

Morrigan Disapproves - 15

[AresKeith]

mikeymoonshine wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Technically the argument they are having ties into the topic, but Plaintiff seems to think being able to change or alter companions armor and outfits means we gain full control of them

i just meant it's kind of becoming pointless now but i'm gonna give my opinion anyway because I am opinionated. 

I get what your saying

[Nightdragon8]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Nightdragon:
Fenris' glove is heavy metal armor, and the issue isn't that he couldn't pick up a glass with those gloves. The issue is that he wouldn't. He wouldn't even wear his armor in his home all the time. Hawke at least gets to wear civilian clothing at home. Companions should do likewise. It's ok if the game does it and I don't get to influence it (as is the case with Hawke), as long as the result is plausible (which it is with Hawke). Fenris wearing heavy armor at home all the time is not. Apostate mage Hawke wearing mage robes and a staff while walking the city is not. Characters wearing iconic outfits while on a supposedly secret mission is most emphatically not.

Of course I want customization. Everyone does. But I *need* it only if the game defaults break my suspension of disbelief.

your suspension of disbelief is pretty weak... if not almost non-existant. Its a game, the production value is a serious issue with games, considering the fact that they starting to get near movie level costs. also considering the fact that in reailty its a new medium, blah blah atari but in reailty, GFX in games where simple for a VERY long time. Heck look back on the NES then Sega/SNES funny enough some SNES games would still stack up todays games (well at least flash games)

"Historyly accurate" didn't come around until much later when the movies became an excepted way of conveying a story.

I mean just because X person doesn't take off X armor, Honestly its because in reality allocating coding to acount for ALL senariors is bonkers.

I mean I'm surpized you aren't complaining about the fact that Hawke can carry like a full arsonal with 10-20 different armors around. "where is he storing it"

Its the same issue with unlimited ammo guns in movies.

Just learn to hand wave it.. its not "Hurting" anyone. I mean unless you wanna poke holes into everything that is your right, but in reality you can do that with EVERYTHING. Doesn't mean you should.

Modifié par Nightdragon8, 19 juin 2013 - 03:06 .

[AresKeith]

Plaintiff wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Technically the argument they are having ties into the topic, but Plaintiff seems to think being able to change or alter companions armor and outfits means we gain full control of them

Uh, no.

Then what are you going on about?

[Plaintiff]

AresKeith wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Technically the argument they are having ties into the topic, but Plaintiff seems to think being able to change or alter companions armor and outfits means we gain full control of them

Uh, no.

Then what are you going on about?

If I knew how to make it any clearer, I would have. I thought it was pretty straightforward.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Plaintiff wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
They're all player characters.  Everyone in the party is a player character.  The player controls them; they're player characters.

But they aren't. You don't control what they say or do or think, you react to them and they react to you, but you don't control them. For all intents and purposes, they're essentially being controlled by other players that are not you.

You choose where they go, who they fight, what skill they learn, what tactics they employ.  Either they're acting independently of their own preferences (which I would expect to draw a remark from them), of you're controllign their thoughts sa they make those decisions.

There's no available middle ground that doesn't break the setting.

The main character is your avatar in the game world. You chose his occupation, appearance, and to a certain extent, his personality and background.

I don't need an avatar in the game world - I don't exist from the game world's point of view.  Are you suggesting that Hawke and the Warden didn't exist before I started playing them?  On what grounds?

Yes, and of those three examples, the player could only tell one of them what to wear.

No, I couldn't.  Not even with Hawke.  I never told Hawke what the wear - Hawke decided what to wear on his own.  I was merely the mechanism that made his decisions, but they were his decisions.

Again, I don't exist in the game world.  I can't tell Hawke anything.

It's not any less arbitrary than your ridiculous standards

Exactly right.  It's exactly as arbitrary, and thus lacks prescriptive force.

There is no reason beyond personal preference for a player to choose your approach over mine.

[drake heath]

Like I said, if you don't want to give us the option to change a companions clothes than don't make it a party based RPG.

I can't change Vernon Roche clothes in The Witcher 2 because it's not a party based game.

DA is a party based game and thus I should have the ability to choose what my companions wear, fight with, and how they fight.
And if BioWare doesn't want that than they shouldn't make the game party based.

[jillabender]

Being able to customize companion armour or not isn't a deal-breaker for me, but I admit that I do enjoy trying different armour on companions. I wouldn't say it has a huge effect one way or another on how I relate to the companions, or how much I'm immersed in the world - I just find it fun for it's own sake.

From the sounds of it, we'll be able to change our companions' armour in DA3, but each piece of armour will look slightly different depending on the companion wearing it, so that each companion will still retain an individual look. I think that sounds like a great idea - I like the idea of mixing and matching, and playing around to discover what a new piece of armour looks like on each companion.

Hooray for dress-up time! 

Modifié par jillabender, 19 juin 2013 - 05:13 .

[AresKeith]

jillabender wrote...

Being able to customize companion armour or not isn't a deal-breaker for me, but I admit that I do enjoy trying different armour on companions. I wouldn't say it has a huge effect one way or another on how I relate to the companions, or how much I'm immersed in the world - I just find it fun for it's own sake.

From the sounds of it, we'll be able to change our companions' armour in DA3, but each piece of armour will look slightly different depending on the companion wearing it, so that each companion will still retain an individual look. I think that sounds like a great idea - I like the idea of mixing and matching, and playing around to discover what a new piece of armour looks like on each companion.

Hooray for dress-up time! 

Yep, I like the sound of that idea too

It's the perfect medium for being able to change their outfits but keeping the companions unique look

Something DA2 and ME2 should've had

[jessielou]

I don't understand what people are on about. If you don't want to change you're companions armor, don't. Having the option for people that want to doesn't take anything away from you.

@mikeymoonshine

I agree Anders had the best change, which is kind of sad considering all he did was put on a clean jacket and got rid of that filthy snot rag he had tucked into his collar