167 réponses à ce sujet

[Xewaka]

In Exile wrote...

IceHawk-181 wrote...
By all means, enumerate said mechanics. 
Considering that in realistic combat a single strike from a broadsword or axe, or someone sending a few volts of electricity through your system = death.

In terms of physical combat, what it takes is changing the animation and the "pools" that you're drawing from. It also requires better hit boxes for differnet parts. In terms of pools, it would be like the way ME2 did enemy health, in layers.

So still Hit points, as those are present in ME2.

In Exile wrote...
Firstly, parrying exists. So not every physical blow is death - it has to connect. You can approximate the character's ability to parry via a "stamina" ability. That handles the physical part of combat.

So, not unlike LotRO did, simply rename the hit points as "morale", and "healing" as "bolstering", without changing the actual mechanic.

In Exile wrote...
The bigger problems are arrows, and the extent to which characters dodge their fatality. Frankly, I think the solution here is magic.

And suddenly, either you're playing a mage or you're hampering yourself (I saw your points below, and addressed them there). Maybe hit points are there as a kind of balancing act against having "magic" be the answer to everything and by extension, having mages always being mechanically superior to all other options?

In Exile wrote...
Going back to the idea of better hit boxes first, I think what Fallout does with having the body segment into general "parts" is an understandable approximation. I disagree with those parts having substantive health pools - so I would favour 1-2 hit KOs of a part when stamina runs out and no recovery for it short of magic - but that's a side point right now. I'd also approximate a destructible armour stat that hangs over each limb; this way you actually get the "realistic" aspect of having covering armour instead of chainmail bikinis.

So, splitting the hit points into areas and rename them "armor" instead of hit points.

In Exile wrote...
The issue of arrows remains.
I would argue that you can introduce mechanics - via items or spells - that effectively overlay another type of protection for arrows (either for a limited time or damage). The same can extend to ideas of damaging spells.

So concealment - taking into account terrain features in the system - and cover. We could make cover portable, such as shields. And, if you want to go again with "magic", if I remember correctly most equippable armor in DA:O was enchanted.

In Exile wrote...
This also has the effect of illustrating the value of mages. The issue would still be balancing - especially not making mages too strong.

Agreed.

In Exile wrote...
Frankly, I would deal with that by actually recognizing what spells could do to someone - like casting a fireball could burn your own hands. I'd make it so that the lore requires esentially for mages to wear flimsly clothing (that lets them cast dmg spells without hurting themselves) that can't lead to protection from physical blows or arrows - so basically glass cannons.

Friendly fire and vulnerability to physical attacks. Seems fair. In fact, I'd dare say that's the method most systems already use.

In Exile wrote...
So like I said - it's all spitballing, but you can actually try and abstract what combat could be like without the absurdity of HP.

See, here's the problem, as I understand it. You don't oppose hit points mechanically; you think that "hit points as health" is an absurd conversion. Rename them "heroic will/endurance" in your head, and you're good to go.
You may even, as several systems already do, add scaling penalties depending on the amount of endurance that has been drained from the character.

Just because DA currently uses the D&D hitpoint mode of "critical existence failure" doesn't mean it's the only way to apply them, or even the best. I recommend you check Cyberpunk 2020 health system, or Seventh Sea's, or Legend of the Five Rings'. All of them use hitpoints, all of them model the wear and tear of combat, all of them can have a character downed in one or two hits if they're not careful, and all of them have ways for the characters to avoid being downed in one hit if they're careful. And in the two latter, they also have ways other than "magic" to deal with it, despite magic being present in the setting.

Modifié par Xewaka, 26 juin 2013 - 01:30 .

[AresKeith]

 Another pic from the blog

[Eveangaline]

AresKeith wrote...

 Another pic from the blog

That same panel talked about the possability of dying armors, anyone think that's still on the table?

[AresKeith]

Eveangaline wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

 Another pic from the blog

That same panel talked about the possability of dying armors, anyone think that's still on the table?

I hope so

[In Exile]

Xewaka wrote...
So still Hit points, as those are present in ME2.

That's not a fair response. It is impossible to avoid numerical representations of damage. That's just the nature of the game. The issue is how these numerical representations of damage reflect what we think is an underlying reality that has to be simulated. 

A single pool, meant to represent heal, with no penalties for diminishing and an absolute threshold of incapacity is (relative to what we could simulate today), just not a good simulation. 

I was using ME2 only to illustrate the idea of overlapping numerical representations of damage, each with a different purpose, method of healing, relevant skill, etc. 

So, not unlike LotRO did, simply rename the hit points as "morale", and "healing" as "bolstering", without changing the actual mechanic.

I can't comment, because I didn't play that game. But I think having a # of different bars, that can be damaged in different ways, and which can be healed in different ways with different penalties, is a fundamental shift in mechanics. 

And suddenly, either you're playing a mage or you're hampering yourself (I saw your points below, and addressed them there).  

I was trying to address this point in the context of the DA setting. But you can actually deal with it differently - if the combat is bolstered by, essentially, mages buffing and counterbuffing, then a warrior class that can strip buffs, or a rogue class that can use a series of bombs and potions and powers to essentially bypass alll those resistances, would be highly valuable.

I think that there are ways of creating synergy in a satisfying fashion, without making mages mandatory in any sense, while still making them "key".

Maybe hit points are there as a kind of balancing act against having "magic" be the answer to everything and by extension, having mages always being mechanically superior to all other options?

Only if the system you're using is unsophisticated. Like I said: I take your criticism. But I think the answer is to develop the capabilities of the other classes to work around such problems. 

So, splitting the hit points into areas and rename them "armor" instead of hit points.

Again, more complex. Because you'd have an underlying representation of health. But you would have other layers, that respond differently. Some with penalties for the numerical value falling without just an absolute threshold. 

Maybe you think that all of this is mechanically the same. But I think it's such a significant change of what the numerical value does that calling it a hit-point is misleading, because it captures just a wholly different set of concepts. 

So concealment - taking into account terrain features in the system - and cover. We could make cover portable, such as shields. And, if you want to go again with "magic", if I remember correctly most equippable armor in DA:O was enchanted.

I don't follow this point.

Friendly fire and vulnerability to physical attacks. Seems fair. In fact, I'd dare say that's the method most systems already use.

Not friendly fire. Self-damage, i.e., like a permanent blood magic mode being activated, whose cost can only be shaved off by equiping "armour" that increases vulnerabilities. 

And like I said: because there would be multiple pools, the actual synergies would be differnet. 

See, here's the problem, as I understand it. You don't oppose hit points mechanically; you think that "hit points as health" is an absurd conversion. Rename them "heroic will/endurance" in your head, and you're good to go.

I do oppose them mechanically. What I don't oppose is using numbers to account for damage, but that's just another way of saying I like RPGs.

Just because DA currently uses the D&D hitpoint mode of "critical existence failure" doesn't mean it's the only way to apply them, or even the best. I recommend you check Cyberpunk 2020 health system, or Seventh Sea's, or Legend of the Five Rings'. All of them use hitpoints, all of them model the wear and tear of combat, all of them can have a character downed in one or two hits if they're not careful, and all of them have ways for the characters to avoid being downed in one hit if they're careful. And in the two latter, they also have ways other than "magic" to deal with it, despite magic being present in the setting.

Maybe it isn't. But if you want to apply such a broad definition of the term, I would still object. If you use it to mean something other than the D&D system, then it captures a concept that doesn't have anything to do with DA. And I would just say that the complaints are problematic because they're not complaining about critical existence failure instead.  

[Eveangaline]

AresKeith wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

 Another pic from the blog

That same panel talked about the possability of dying armors, anyone think that's still on the table?

I hope so

Even if it isn't, I'm just glad armor changes again, that should never have been missing in the first place.

[AresKeith]

Eveangaline wrote...

Even if it isn't, I'm just glad armor changes again, that should never have been missing in the first place.

Agreed

[Bleachrude]

AresKeith wrote...

Filament wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

But I understand why Bioware and others wanted companions to keep their unique iconic look, hince the middle ground

I don't understand why BioWare wants that.  That's the problem.

It's iconic.

And it makes them stand out as their own character, atleast that's what I got from it

There\\s also the fact that technically, your comapnions should be their own person and not just a mannequin.  I know it is a trope for western RPGs that in party based systems, you can dress your party members in any fashion but as actual living breathing characters though?

(although ironically, wasn't the fact that Torment didn't allow for this considered part of its stength in its character design?)

EDIT: "different HP system"
I remember 7th sea's system but that suffered from the spiral of doom syndrome. Basically, once you get injured, you're MORE likely to get injured again as either your ability to resist damage is hampered OR your offensive output is curtailed.

Thus, combat was becomes more deadly and it makes it very hard to balance as well.

Modifié par Bleachrude, 29 juin 2013 - 06:00 .

[AresKeith]

Bleachrude wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

And it makes them stand out as their own character, atleast that's what I got from it

Theres also the fact that technically, your comapnions should be their own person and not just a mannequin.  I know it is a trope for western RPGs that in party based systems, you can dress your party members in any fashion but as actual living breathing characters though?

(although ironically, wasn't the fact that Torment didn't allow for this considered part of its stength in its character design?)

EDIT: "different HP system"
I remember 7th sea's system but that suffered from the spiral of doom syndrome. Basically, once you get injured, you're MORE likely to get injured again as either your ability to resist damage is hampered OR your offensive output is curtailed.

Thus, combat was becomes more deadly and it makes it very hard to balance as well.

That's why having the armor change to fit them but keep to their unique look is a good medium

[Eveangaline]

Bleachrude wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Filament wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

But I understand why Bioware and others wanted companions to keep their unique iconic look, hince the middle ground

I don't understand why BioWare wants that.  That's the problem.

It's iconic.

And it makes them stand out as their own character, atleast that's what I got from it

Theres also the fact that technically, your comapnions should be their own person and not just a mannequin.  I know it is a trope for western RPGs that in party based systems, you can dress your party members in any fashion but as actual living breathing characters though?

(although ironically, wasn't the fact that Torment didn't allow for this considered part of its stength in its character design?)

EDIT: "different HP system"
I remember 7th sea's system but that suffered from the spiral of doom syndrome. Basically, once you get injured, you're MORE likely to get injured again as either your ability to resist damage is hampered OR your offensive output is curtailed.

Thus, combat was becomes more deadly and it makes it very hard to balance as well.

Eh. The way I see it "I'm about to drag you into a place you probably need good armor to survive in. Here's some armor better at keeping you alive than what you're wearing" is a good enough reason to explain them changing. Especially if you're their commander like you were as a warden.

[Xewaka]

Bleachrude wrote...
Theres also the fact that technically, your comapnions should be their own person and not just a mannequin.  I know it is a trope for western RPGs that in party based systems, you can dress your party members in any fashion but as actual living breathing characters though?

I think of companions as player characters with a preset background. Once they're in the party, they're as mine as the main character is.

Bleachrude wrote...
EDIT: "different HP system"
I remember 7th sea's system but that suffered from the spiral of doom syndrome. Basically, once you get injured, you're MORE likely to get injured again as either your ability to resist damage is hampered OR your offensive output is curtailed.
Thus, combat was becomes more deadly and it makes it very hard to balance as well.

I understand that was the point Exile wanted to arrive at. Speaking of which, I'll have a lenghtier reply for you, Exile, later this day.

[Fraq Hound]

NWN toolset allowed you to create armor that could be placed into environments. The creation process was actually very cool.

Each armor was split up into pieces: (IIRC) Torso, Right Arm, Right hand, Left Arm, Left hand, legs, feet. Each piece had 5-20 different cosmetic options and you could mix and match them to create unique and awesome looking armor. You could color it as well.

It was the same for the weapons too. Swords for instance had four pieces: Blade, Cross-Guard, Grip, Pommel. With a bunch of options for each.

I would love to see a similar system in the DA:I campaign.

Maybe you get a blacksmith at your castle/camp that can customize any armor/weapon piece by piece.

The best system (IMO) would be to let the players design the cosmetic look of the armor and the loot drops only effecting stats. You could be given just some basic parts in the beginning and then unlock more elaborate designs throughout the game.

It would eliminate things like this:



Great stats but you look ridiculous.

Modifié par Fraq Hound, 02 juillet 2013 - 04:10 .

[Xewaka]

In Exile wrote...
What I don't oppose is using numbers to account for damage

I was going to type a longer response, readressing all your points, but that quote right there: That's my definition of hit points: A number-based mechanical abstraction to account for damage in a gaming system.
It would be useful to have yours, so we're discussing on even ground, rather than dancing around semantics.

Modifié par Xewaka, 02 juillet 2013 - 07:00 .

[Sidney]

Eveangaline wrote...

Eh. The way I see it "I'm about to drag you into a place you probably need good armor to survive in. Here's some armor better at keeping you alive than what you're wearing" is a good enough reason to explain them changing. Especially if you're their commander like you were as a warden.

...of course the DA2 solution to that was to say there isn't "better" armor for them and everyone went full caterwauling on that.

I dislike companion customization. It is lousy for immersion, lousy for game mechanics and pointless. Nothing whipped me more in DAO then Sten waxing on about how this was his sword and there are many like it but this one is his...and then prompty doing nothing when you tell him to use another weapon and worse not even blinking when you sell it off. Morrigan seems to have a mind of her own but then you can turn her into a big old barbie and dress her up like Wynne. At least Boone in FNV would balk at wearing "better" legion armor because he hated the legion.  Having to play dress up with all your allies drives a lot of the awful that is trash looting and the time suck of inventory management as you swap back and forth between marginally better weapons and armors. I like that I can swap juggernaut armor from Ohgren to Sten and it magically changes sizes that makes me feel good.

Even better since there are a limited number of armors and weapons at any given point in the game I'd guess everyone in your party and my party pretty much all look the same so "custom" isn't really all that custom.

[LinksOcarina]

Eveangaline wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

 Another pic from the blog

That same panel talked about the possability of dying armors, anyone think that's still on the table?

Good idea. Again learning for games like the Last Story it seems...

[AresKeith]

Sidney wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

Eh. The way I see it "I'm about to drag you into a place you probably need good armor to survive in. Here's some armor better at keeping you alive than what you're wearing" is a good enough reason to explain them changing. Especially if you're their commander like you were as a warden.

...of course the DA2 solution to that was to say there isn't "better" armor for them and everyone went full caterwauling on that.

I dislike companion customization. It is lousy for immersion, lousy for game mechanics and pointless. Nothing whipped me more in DAO then Sten waxing on about how this was his sword and there are many like it but this one is his...and then prompty doing nothing when you tell him to use another weapon and worse not even blinking when you sell it off. Morrigan seems to have a mind of her own but then you can turn her into a big old barbie and dress her up like Wynne. At least Boone in FNV would balk at wearing "better" legion armor because he hated the legion.  Having to play dress up with all your allies drives a lot of the awful that is trash looting and the time suck of inventory management as you swap back and forth between marginally better weapons and armors. I like that I can swap juggernaut armor from Ohgren to Sten and it magically changes sizes that makes me feel good.

Even better since there are a limited number of armors and weapons at any given point in the game I'd guess everyone in your party and my party pretty much all look the same so "custom" isn't really all that custom.

Have you seen the blog considering how Bioware is handling companion customization?

[In Exile]

Xewaka wrote...
A number-based mechanical abstraction to account for damage in a gaming system.

It would be useful to have yours, so we're discussing on even ground, rather than dancing around semantics.

To me, hit points are a particular kind o fnumbers based abstraction, namely one that is largely artifical and accounts for damage only on a completely abstracted threshold for any real representation of damage, and that operates exclusively on an "totally fine" to "completely incapable" threshold once sufficient damage accumulates. 

[AresKeith]

looks like this has been pretty much confirmed