233 réponses à ce sujet

[Jukaga]

Synthesis is the ideal tool for the Catalyst to accomplish the task the Leviathan's gave it. Doesn't anyone else see this? Just because the Cat says it's the best solution for everyone and it places it in the middle does not make it the 'best' meta-choice for the endings.

From Cat's point of view it is, but not from mine so I don't think you can fault bioware for not showing how 'unethical' it is. The slides show everyone with rainbows and smiles but what they don't show is that everyone, knowing or not is a thrall of our favorite Apex species, Leviathan.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...


And to be honest, I find that change to be unacceptable.

'Could be worse.

I could end the war with more death/destruction and no further gain.

Or let everyone get harvested/huskified. Comparatively, those shiny tatts/lens are no big deal.

There is plenty to gain from the Reaper corpses. We'll be making huge strides post destroy. If it takes a lot of death to do it, so be it.

As far as I know, those shiny tats and lenses are the same as being huskified. I'll invoke Master Kenobi here: From a certain point of view, Synthesis is huskifying.

In fact, I think I already explained to you why in the "Insight on Synthesis thread." We've already discussed this there, no need to bring it up again here.

They're both equally unacceptable to me.

[Maxster_]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...
Can you prove it changed their minds? I mean forcibly changed them, and not just made them aware of new information they hadn't been aware of before.

This has always been why people who criticize or denounce synthesis bothered me so much. There's a lot of assumptions that negative things are going on to people, but theres little actual evidence of this. It's like saying that because someone who didn't belive in global warming before learned of new information that convinced him it was real, that he had his mind forcibly altered and that it was unethical to show him that new information.

I'm not going to defend synthesis by much at all, it's not the option I particularly like, but this kind of talk still rubs me the wrong way and seems kinda disingenuous.

Well considering that everyone seems hunky dorey with the Reapers now, and that I doubt everyone will be ok with that.. I'd say it's a fair chance. However, like dealing with most of Synthesis and the other endings... there's not much to work with.

I still don't think everyone will be all along with the idea to jump on the "Reapers are your friends" bandwagon as some others.

Everyone seemed hunky dorey with working with geth, krogan, batarians, quarians, and humans by the end of mass effect 3 as well, despite the many instances of bad blood and differences present.

People can put past grudges aside if something more important arises, such as rebuilding wrecked planets back to normal.

Sure.
Like just how well it worked in the real world :lol:
Hatred, distrust and old grudges are going on for centuries.

[The Night Mammoth]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Well considering that everyone seems hunky dorey with the Reapers now, and that I doubt everyone will be ok with that.. I'd say it's a fair chance. However, like dealing with most of Synthesis and the other endings... there's not much to work with.

I still don't think everyone will be all along with the idea to jump on the "Reapers are your friends" bandwagon as some others.

Well, we expect the same out of the quarians, to make friends with the robots that have slaughtered billions of their ancestors over a period of centuries.

Centuries? The Morning War didn't last the whole three hundred years of the quarian's exile from Rannoch. 

Why stop there? Reapers haven't even been around as long and likely even killed less!

The Reapers have been around for a billion years and have killed the entire populations of about twenty thousand cycles. There are seventeen billion people on Earth alone in Mass Effect. 

The geth are also not single mindedly murderous robots and never have been. There were clear and obvious reasons for their actions, and they've made their own independant decision to ally against the Reapers with the quarians. They've shown the capacity to be kind, cooperative and helpful.

[Kel Riever]

Clearly, you were supposed to accept the premise for Synthesis without really thinking too hard about it. In fact, you weren't supposed to think really hard about any of the ending choices given the nonsense premise of making them. You were just supposed to listen to the music, watch the lights shoot through the Relays, and cry in sadness and joy.

Such is the nature of all shallow forms of entertainment.

[Ticonderoga117]

Darth Brotarian wrote...
Everyone seemed hunky dorey with working with geth, krogan, batarians, quarians, and humans by the end of mass effect 3 as well, despite the many instances of bad blood and differences present.

People can put past grudges aside if something more important arises, such as rebuilding wrecked planets back to normal.

Uh, not really. Most of the game was spent putting out brush fires so that they could work together.

Hell the Salarians withdrew support because I helped the Krogan, and we had Reapers to deal with!

I only got the Batarians to help because Balak didn't die and I was able to convince him the only way to help his people was to help us (plus a high enough rep).

I only got the Quarians and Geth to work together because I helped both out and talked down the Quarians.

There was not a lot of hunky dorey before all of that work.

[Ticonderoga117]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Well considering that everyone seems hunky dorey with the Reapers now, and that I doubt everyone will be ok with that.. I'd say it's a fair chance. However, like dealing with most of Synthesis and the other endings... there's not much to work with.

I still don't think everyone will be all along with the idea to jump on the "Reapers are your friends" bandwagon as some others.

Well, we expect the same out of the quarians, to make friends with the robots that have slaughtered billions of their ancestors over a period of centuries.

Centuries? The Morning War didn't last the whole three hundred years of the quarian's exile from Rannoch. 

Why stop there? Reapers haven't even been around as long and likely even killed less!

The Reapers have been around for a billion years and have killed the entire populations of about twenty thousand cycles. There are seventeen billion people on Earth alone in Mass Effect. 

The geth are also not single mindedly murderous robots and never have been. There were clear and obvious reasons for their actions, and they've made their own independant decision to ally against the Reapers with the quarians. They've shown the capacity to be kind, cooperative and helpful.

Uhm, all of this.

Thanks to my math skills, I agree that:
Billions of years > 300 years.

[Linkenski]

mass perfection wrote...

Note:This thread is not for Synthesis hate,but just questioning BW on the ending.


 I feel like BW didn't notice how unethical Synthesis while they were writing it or If they did notice,then why would they present it as the "best" ending?

If the former,then how did you miss that unless it's some coincidence that makes our parallel universe special.

If the latter,how do you guys justify being unethical,anti-freedom meanies?

Try asking Mac. It would be like:
"No i don't really know anything about "ethics" but there is this other cool part in the game where cerberus takes over the Citadel and it's like total war between the two factions, boom and blam everywhere, but there's also a human side to the story because i want it to transcend. It has all the biggest moments and that's what we wanted"

[Jukaga]

Kel Riever wrote...

Clearly, you were supposed to accept the premise for Synthesis without really thinking too hard about it. In fact, you weren't supposed to think really hard about any of the ending choices given the nonsense premise of making them. You were just supposed to listen to the music, watch the lights shoot through the Relays, and cry in sadness and joy.

Such is the nature of all shallow forms of entertainment.

When did you ever get the impression that ME was going to be anything other than 'shallow entertainment'? And since when is that a bad thing?

[His Name was HYR!!]

 (Had to switch computers).

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

There is plenty to gain from the Reaper corpses. We'll be making huge strides post destroy. If it takes a lot of death to do it, so be it.

And if you're willing to bite the bullet instead asking others to, you can make exponentially larger strides!

[& refer to top of sig.]

As far as I know, those shiny tats and lenses are the same as being huskified. I'll invoke Master Kenobi here: From a certain point of view, Synthesis is huskifying.

Cyborgs are nothing new to Mass Effect.

In fact, there are more positive examples of them than bad ones, people just have a habit of remembering bad examples of things more readily than the good ones ("negativity bias").

Still, one need not conflate all cyborgs with husks.

In fact, I think I already explained to you why in the "Insight on Synthesis thread." We've already discussed this there, no need to bring it up again here.

They're both equally unacceptable to me.

You didn't explain, just said we should agree to disagree -- which I can do, but it's not an explanation.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Maxster_ wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...
Can you prove it changed their minds? I mean forcibly changed them, and not just made them aware of new information they hadn't been aware of before.

This has always been why people who criticize or denounce synthesis bothered me so much. There's a lot of assumptions that negative things are going on to people, but theres little actual evidence of this. It's like saying that because someone who didn't belive in global warming before learned of new information that convinced him it was real, that he had his mind forcibly altered and that it was unethical to show him that new information.

I'm not going to defend synthesis by much at all, it's not the option I particularly like, but this kind of talk still rubs me the wrong way and seems kinda disingenuous.

Well considering that everyone seems hunky dorey with the Reapers now, and that I doubt everyone will be ok with that.. I'd say it's a fair chance. However, like dealing with most of Synthesis and the other endings... there's not much to work with.

I still don't think everyone will be all along with the idea to jump on the "Reapers are your friends" bandwagon as some others.

Everyone seemed hunky dorey with working with geth, krogan, batarians, quarians, and humans by the end of mass effect 3 as well, despite the many instances of bad blood and differences present.

People can put past grudges aside if something more important arises, such as rebuilding wrecked planets back to normal.

Sure.
Like just how well it worked in the real world :lol:
Hatred, distrust and old grudges are going on for centuries.

But it does happen in the real world, all the time.

[His Name was HYR!!]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Centuries? The Morning War didn't last the whole three hundred years of the quarian's exile from Rannoch.

No, it didn't, but geth-quarian conflict didn't end with The Morning War.

They remained in violent conflict for the next 300 years, be it on Haestrom or even in the Flotilla.

The Reapers have been around for a billion years and have killed the entire populations of about twenty thousand cycles.

Pfft! As if we have such great ability to emphathize. Only our own personal grievances matter to us, not what they did to others. Again, take the geth-quarian conflict, or even the krogan-turian/salarian one. It's damned easy for us to expect them to just drop their grievances on a dime.

When it comes to asking us to do the same, well, look no further than the BSN. When asked to do the same, many don't even want to accept their leader's help in destroying them, much less would most want to make friends with them (which is what got this ball rolling in the first place -- "how can the galaxy make friends with the Reapers?")

The geth are also not single mindedly murderous robots and never have been.

Well, good thing the Reapers aren't, either. [& refer to top of sig]

There were clear and obvious reasons for their actions, and they've made their own independant decision to ally against the Reapers with the quarians.

Kind of irrelevant as it relates to asking the quarians to accept them. We don't know that 'til after the fact.

I mean, this after they sided with the Reapers to begin with.

They've shown the capacity to be kind, cooperative and helpful.

"They" = a grand total of 1.

Okay, a gestalt of 1,000-odd programs.

Generally hard to ask people to accept 1 anomaly over the vast majority. What was Tali's reaction to Legion on Haestrom? Something like "Oh, so this is just one of the friendly geth that drove my people off their homeworld."

Note what it took to get Tali to change her opinion on Legion: positive contact and mutual cooperation.

That's exactly how it will work between galaxy and Reapers in Sync.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 18 juin 2013 - 09:59 .

[Maxster_]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...
Can you prove it changed their minds? I mean forcibly changed them, and not just made them aware of new information they hadn't been aware of before.

This has always been why people who criticize or denounce synthesis bothered me so much. There's a lot of assumptions that negative things are going on to people, but theres little actual evidence of this. It's like saying that because someone who didn't belive in global warming before learned of new information that convinced him it was real, that he had his mind forcibly altered and that it was unethical to show him that new information.

I'm not going to defend synthesis by much at all, it's not the option I particularly like, but this kind of talk still rubs me the wrong way and seems kinda disingenuous.

Well considering that everyone seems hunky dorey with the Reapers now, and that I doubt everyone will be ok with that.. I'd say it's a fair chance. However, like dealing with most of Synthesis and the other endings... there's not much to work with.

I still don't think everyone will be all along with the idea to jump on the "Reapers are your friends" bandwagon as some others.

Everyone seemed hunky dorey with working with geth, krogan, batarians, quarians, and humans by the end of mass effect 3 as well, despite the many instances of bad blood and differences present.

People can put past grudges aside if something more important arises, such as rebuilding wrecked planets back to normal.

Sure.
Like just how well it worked in the real world :lol:
Hatred, distrust and old grudges are going on for centuries.

But it does happen in the real world, all the time.

The closiest equivalent for reapers in the real world - **** Germany, with its deliberate genocide politics.
Looks how great that worked for them and their leaders. And reapers are all guilty, in comparison to.

[Red Panda]

I'd say that they did, considering that some would call the endings thematically revolting. There is no easy choice.

[His Name was HYR!!]

Cthulhu42 wrote...
-snipped by HYR-

I don't.

Well at least you're consistent!!

[tamperous]

Blacks and Whites will never get along, so press this button everyone will be Mulatto-ized and everyone will get along.

[Argentoid]

"when 'they' were writing it" you say?

It's "when HE wrote it"/"When Mac wrote it", actually.

Modifié par Argentoid, 18 juin 2013 - 10:30 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 (Had to switch computers).

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

There is plenty to gain from the Reaper corpses. We'll be making huge strides post destroy. If it takes a lot of death to do it, so be it.

And if you're willing to bite the bullet instead asking others to, you can make exponentially larger strides!

[& refer to top of sig.]

As far as I know, those shiny tats and lenses are the same as being huskified. I'll invoke Master Kenobi here: From a certain point of view, Synthesis is huskifying.

Cyborgs are nothing new to Mass Effect.

In fact, there are more positive examples of them than bad ones, people just have a habit of remembering bad examples of things more readily than the good ones ("negativity bias").

Still, one need not conflate all cyborgs with husks.

In fact, I think I already explained to you why in the "Insight on Synthesis thread." We've already discussed this there, no need to bring it up again here.

They're both equally unacceptable to me.

You didn't explain, just said we should agree to disagree -- which I can do, but it's not an explanation.

I honestly don't think there are exponentially larger strides or variations to either synthesis or Destroy. Even if there are, I'll stick to not making an unacceptable change and going up at a slower rate.

I didn't really clarify what I meant by the Kenobi quote.

Synthesis, as presented by the Reapers and Catalyst, it's terms dictated by him and revealed as such, could potentially be a Reaper huskifying process.

Are we not all connected now as Reapers? Is conflict no longer possible if everyone is a Reaper subject? Are we not  all "ascended", going by the Reapers idea? "Perfect", going by what the Catalyst says?

If everyone is now huskified forever, is the purpose of the Reapers not irrelevent now? That's what I interpret synthesis to do. 

Everything is changed via a Reaper synthesis, huskification if you will. We're all 'perfect' and 'ascended' permanently. All life is. Conflict is no longer possible. We're all in a state of bliss from accepting the Reapers or being entirely indoctrinated. 

Does that meet the Catalyst's goal? Yes.

Is that what Synthesis is? Maybe not. But can you prove it otherwise?

This is the interpretation of how I view Synthesis. With everything being huskified, it solves the Catalyst's problem completely. Everything is 'perfect and ascended', being part Reaper. 

Where did I fail to explain it before?

[Steelcan]

Synthesis solves the Catalyst's problem by connecting everyone to the Leviathans

[ruggly]

Forget ethics for a second, what made them think they could get away with the explanation on how it works?!

[The Night Mammoth]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

No, it didn't, but geth-quarian conflict didn't end with The Morning War.

They remained in violent conflict for the next 300 years, be it on Haestrom or even in the Flotilla.

I have heard absolutely no mention of continued hostilities that were anything like open war in that period.

Pfft! As if we have such great ability to emphathize. Only our own personal grievances matter to us, not what they did to others. Again, take the geth-quarian conflict, or even the krogan-turian/salarian one. It's damned easy for us to expect them to just drop their grievances on a dime.

When it comes to asking us to do the same, well, look no further than the BSN. When asked to do the same, many don't even want to accept their leader's help in destroying them, much less would most want to make friends with them (which is what got this ball rolling in the first place -- "how can the galaxy make friends with the Reapers?")

Right, so if people are inherently selfish and only we only care about our personal grievances (which is a real speak for your f*cking self statement), why does the fact that they've killed less people than the geth did matter? 

Well, good thing the Reapers aren't, either. [& refer to top of sig]

Show me a single instance of a Reaper doing something, indepentantly and without third-party influence that wasn't either killing someone, or furthering their goal of killing everyone. 

Kind of irrelevant as it relates to asking the quarians to accept them. We don't know that 'til after the fact.
I mean, this after they sided with the Reapers to begin with.

And since the quarians are clearly willing to take the step to cooperate with the geth, the fact that the geth had perfectly clear and obvious reasons for their actions is relevant, else why would the quarians even bother?

"They" = a grand total of 1.

Okay, a gestalt of 1,000-odd programs.

Generally hard to ask people to accept 1 anomaly over the vast majority. What was Tali's reaction to Legion on Haestrom? Something like "Oh, so this is just one of the friendly geth that drove my people off their homeworld."

Note what it took to get Tali to change her opinion on Legion: positive contact and mutual cooperation.

That's exactly how it will work between galaxy and Reapers in Sync.

I'm not basing that on Legion alone, but even so, the fact that Legion is capable of those things is actually fairly good indicator of what the geth are capable of, since, you know, they operate by consensus. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 18 juin 2013 - 10:44 .

[Kel Riever]

Jukaga wrote...

Kel Riever wrote...

Clearly, you were supposed to accept the premise for Synthesis without really thinking too hard about it. In fact, you weren't supposed to think really hard about any of the ending choices given the nonsense premise of making them. You were just supposed to listen to the music, watch the lights shoot through the Relays, and cry in sadness and joy.

Such is the nature of all shallow forms of entertainment.

When did you ever get the impression that ME was going to be anything other than 'shallow entertainment'? And since when is that a bad thing?

First, this is not shallow in the sense of good shallow.

So having said that, since ME1 which is either not shallow or good shallow, depending on how you want to define it.

Note, if its good shallow, I don't call it shallow.  Shallow is a strictly negative term as far as I'm concerned, and in this case it is being used as 'superficial,' as per your friendly dictionary.

Modifié par Kel Riever, 18 juin 2013 - 10:50 .

[Jukaga]

Steelcan wrote...

Synthesis solves the Catalyst's problem by connecting everyone to the Leviathans

Exactly. The complete game almost hits you over the head with this but few seem to 'get it'. The Cat was just trying to accomplish it's original goal, maybe not in the way the Levis intended, but if you choose Sync you're helping it along. I'm not going to judge and say that it is neccesarily a bad thing but that is what it is. Whether you want to accept it's logic or not is up to you. Normally, I don't but I've played 2 Sheps now that agreed with it.