229 réponses à ce sujet

[Great_Horn]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Abraham_uk wrote...
If I were to purchases one book from Bioware, should Asunder be that one book?

Please note that I am a fan of both Mass Effect and Dragon Age.

Yes, it should. I've read all ME and DA books. David Gaider's books are better than anything ever written for ME, but The Stolen Throne and The Calling are still not really good. Asunder is good.

Well, I couldn’t disagree more. However, it’s of course a matter of taste.

If someone is still attached to the same old dragging theme Mages  vers. Templars then I´m sure you find Asunder appealing.
 

Modifié par Great_Horn, 19 juin 2013 - 04:37 .

[Avaflame]

I loved Asunder, though I had no such problems with the characters as others seem to have had. I also wouldn't agree with the most of the reasons why these characters seem to have been misliked, but I guess that's where contrast of interpretation comes in, and that's not a bad thing at all. That's what makes narrative interesting.

[Plaintiff]

Beerfish wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...


She was the only voice of reason the mages had-- at least the most influential. Now who do they have? She was the sort of mage needed to institute reform. And she dies for Evangeline-- a templar who stands by while the magi vote for separation? Rhys takes her spot as leader of the Aequitarians? An ex-libertarian a few hours before the vote is cast? Not sold. Everything she worked for was spat on and ripped to shreds in this book by Libertarian mages-- her own son voting for something she voted against a year ago-- and she died without having seen a resolution to the mage-templar conflict. Bad end IMO. I can only hope a new mage in DA:I takes her place as the moderate reformer. 

SPOILERS below!


Exactly.  The only two characters that remained conistent in the game were two that were supposed to be villains or part villains.  Lambert and the red haired mage.  The following characters most of whom were supposed to be sympathetic were the exact opposite for me.

Rhys:  selfish, actions lead to problems for the mages, wishy washy,  traitor to his mothers ideals.
Evangeline:  Total traitor to here companions and ideals.
Cole:  We all know what he really is and what he really does.
Leliaina:  Horrible murderous traitor to her ideals.
Wynne: Abandons her ideals for part of the game before regaining them.  sacrifices her self only to have her sacrifce mean a total abandonent of the ideals she had for years.

Exactly what do you think Wynne's ideals are? She makes it very clear in Awakening that she opposes separating from the Chantry because she fears retribution, not because she personally believes that staying with the Chantry is the morally correct thing to do.

And how is Rhys a "traitor"? Is he not entitled to his own opinions, separate from those of the mother that he didn't even know for most of his life? Why should he feel any loyalty to her in the first place? She's just some stranger that happened to give birth to him, and it's made pretty clear from the beginning that he does not like her ideals and never did.

[frostajulie]

Abraham_uk wrote...

If I were to purchases one book from Bioware, should Asunder be that one book?



Please note that I am a fan of both Mass Effect and Dragon Age.

I've got all the ME and DAO books to date sans the most recent one involving cereal peeing.  I would say Asunder is the best of them all, and while all have their moments Asunder is fun to read from the first page to the fist pumping last.

I would strongly disagree with Rhys being wishy washy.  He's exactly the opposite.  He is willing to see other peoples perspectives, he can see the pros and cons of different situations, he is not brainwashed into believing there is only one right solution and it is his.He is willing to meet in the middle its not all or nothing when others die I would not lay the entire blame on his character growth but rather on the story arc and the actions of several characters or factions.  Rhys stayed true to his own sense of right and wrong when possible but was willing to grow through experience this made him very real as a character to me.

As for Wynne it seems we argue from 2 different persepctives, the detractors for her end see her as a symbol, as a political figure head, as an abstract idealized ideal of what she was.  I finally got to see her as a who she was, a woman, like me, a woman who loved others, a woman who was a part of her world and not above it.  I love what she did because it was her character, others seem to hate it because it affects the overall plot.

Selfish characters are not bad characters, indeed selfish characters who are not villains are some of my favorite fictional characters.  Good people who do good things for selfish reasons are the most relatable and IMO heroic.

Modifié par frostajulie, 19 juin 2013 - 04:54 .

[MWImexico]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Beerfish wrote...
Exactly.  The only two characters that remained conistent in the game were two that were supposed to be villains or part villains.  Lambert and the red haired mage.  The following characters most of whom were supposed to be sympathetic were the exact opposite for me.

Rhys:  selfish, actions lead to problems for the mages, wishy washy,  traitor to his mothers ideals.
Evangeline:  Total traitor to here companions and ideals.
Cole:  We all know what he really is and what he really does.
Leliaina:  Horrible murderous traitor to her ideals.
Wynne: Abandons her ideals for part of the game before regaining them.  sacrifices her self only to have her sacrifce mean a total abandonent of the ideals she had for years.

You mean these characters were flexible and could change their minds after learning from their experiences instead of rigidly sticking to an ideology. You mean that characters could have doubts and not be certain if they're right or wrong when making unprecedented decisions, instead of remaining secure in the rightness of their ideologies.

Ideological certainty is not a virtue, which is why it's a trait of the more questionable characters in this story. Perhaps you don't care for that message, but there it is.

+1 Well said.


About Rhys, I like him, he's a nice normal guy. Adrienne annoyed me, she doesn't love anyone, for who is she fighting for again? She's pretty much another "the end justify the means", great. 

[Cimeas]

Exactly- I thought it was an excellent book in its own right, and well worth the read.

[Nole]

I liked The Calling more than Asunder :X

[Palidane]

Beerfish wrote...
SPOILERS below!


Exactly.  The only two characters that remained conistent in the game were two that were supposed to be villains or part villains.  Lambert and the red haired mage.  The following characters most of whom were supposed to be sympathetic were the exact opposite for me.

Rhys:  selfish, actions lead to problems for the mages, wishy washy,  traitor to his mothers ideals.
Evangeline:  Total traitor to here companions and ideals.
Cole:  We all know what he really is and what he really does.
Leliaina:  Horrible murderous traitor to her ideals.
Wynne: Abandons her ideals for part of the game before regaining them.  sacrifices her self only to have her sacrifce mean a total abandonent of the ideals she had for years.

I think you found them inconsistent because you had no idea what their ideals were in the first place.

Spoiler Alert!

Rhys is not naturally confrontational, may or may not have been influenced by Cole, and would rather things not go to open war. He is under no obligation to further his mother's cause. He has had leadership thrust upon him, and is still trying to adjust to it.

Evangeline was always a moderate templar. She believed mages should be taught, protected, learned from, and regulated in equal measure. Her ideals never changed, what changed was the Templar Order. She was unwilling to go along with Lambert and his ruthless oppression, and took a stand for what she believed in. She is no traitor, if anything the Templars betrayed her. Divorcing themselves from the Chantry? Trying to kill the Divine?

Maybe it was clear to you, but I have no idea what Cole is. A demon? A spirit? A ghost? Something else entirely? He doesn't even know himself. I would not neccessarily call him evil either. His las act was certainly justified.

Wow dude. I can tell right away you never talked to Leliana more than once. She has always had unconventional views on the Maker and mages. She always questioned the Chantry and cherished her own beliefs. She fits in perfectly as the left hand of the new divine (who once saved her life). As for where she sides in the end, I say "Blessed are those who stand before the corrupt and wicked and do not falter".

Wynne tried to reform the Chantry from within, but the Grand Enchanter (and that bastard Adrian) were unwilling to follow her lead, and forced the issue. She sacrificed her life for her son, and his happiness, and for one righteous templar. That is exactly what Wynne would die for, and the perfect end to her character. I literally cannot think of a better way for her to go.

Modifié par Palidane, 19 juin 2013 - 04:57 .

[Plaintiff]

frostajulie wrote...
Selfish characters are not bad characters, indeed selfish characters who are not villains are some of my favorite fictional characters.  Good people who do good things for selfish reasons are the most relatable and IMO heroic.

I think all the best characters are selfish. I can't believe in or relate to characters that are purely selfless.

[Zippy72]

I’m not sure why likeability, in one or more characters, is indicative of quality writing unless the author is attempting to make a character likeable, and fails.

[Plaintiff]

Zippy72 wrote...

I’m not sure why likeability, in one or more characters, is indicative of quality writing unless the author is attempting to make a character likeable, and fails.

"Quality" is subjective anyway. If someone wants to tie quality to likeability then that's entirely their right, and liking/not liking characters is perfectly valid grounds for criticism.

I know that I need to find characters I can sympathise with and relate to, in order to enjoy a work of fiction, and failing to do so caused me to discard Game of Thrones, the Dresden Files, and a bunch of other things.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 19 juin 2013 - 05:07 .

[Abraham_uk]

I hope Asunder doesn't have a ninja who goes into peoples homes to steal their cereal?

[Plaintiff]

Abraham_uk wrote...

I hope Asunder doesn't have a ninja who goes into peoples homes to steal their cereal?

No, but the Trix rabbit makes a cameo.

[jillabender]

Hehe... if it were lyrium the Trix rabbit were after, it would explain a few things! ;D

[MadCat221]

Silly Rabbit, Lyrium is for Mages!

(And templars...)

[lil yonce]

frostajulie wrote...

I would strongly disagree with Rhys being wishy washy.  He's exactly the opposite.  He is willing to see other peoples perspectives, he can see the pros and cons of different situations, he is not brainwashed into believing there is only one right solution and it is his.He is willing to meet in the middle its not all or nothing when others die I would not lay the entire blame on his character growth but rather on the story arc and the actions of several characters or factions.  Rhys stayed true to his own sense of right and wrong when possible but was willing to grow through experience this made him very real as a character to me.

I agree with the wishy washy analysis of his character in large part because of the end of the book. Rhys does not know what he wants or believes in and puts the lives of the many on the line for a cause he is not fully behind. That does not endear him to me. He is not who I would want leading anything. Leaders must have conviction. He was incredibily wishy washy when forced to make a decision-- Fiona has to prompt him to clarify his vote-- and he ultimately voted to separate out what he believed was best rather than what was realisitically best for everyone. From passion moreso than reason. So wishy washy and selfish-- I agree with that.

As for Wynne it seems we argue from 2 different persepctives, the detractors for her end see her as a symbol, as a political figure head, as an abstract idealized ideal of what she was.  I finally got to see her as a who she was, a woman, like me, a woman who loved others, a woman who was a part of her world and not above it.  I love what she did because it was her character, others seem to hate it because it affects the overall plot.

I feel I got to know her sufficiently in DA:O. I knew what kind of woman she was and her imperfections-- Anerin was the son figure to her in that game. My opinion of her sacrifice is certainly colored by Rhys and Evangeline-- characters I personally dislike (its not that they were horribly written)-- and having her ideals she has held fast to and worked for decades to uphold be so easily dismissed by the Libertarians and her having no opportunity to rectify the situation. That was a large part of her character to me-- larger than her relationship to Rhys-- so I dislike how she went out.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 19 juin 2013 - 08:40 .

[MisterJB]

Palidane wrote...
Evangeline was always a moderate templar. She believed mages should be taught, protected, learned from, and regulated in equal measure. Her ideals never changed, what changed was the Templar Order. She was unwilling to go along with Lambert and his ruthless oppression, and took a stand for what she believed in. She is no traitor, if anything the Templars betrayed her. Divorcing themselves from the Chantry? Trying to kill the Divine?

Being a moderate is fine. I had believed Evangeline was an exemplary templar when she protected non-mages from Adrian but also wasn't willing to just let a mob lynch the mages.
But, at some point, a good templar must realize that this job is also about protecting the world from mages and that, sometimes, it requires hard choices and sacrifices to acomplish this. Assisting in the murder of her brothers-in-arms to free a coterie of mages so that they could start an world war are not the actions of a moderate. By the end of Asunder, Evangeline had switched from a moderate position to a pro-mage one and she is a traitor not just to the Templar Order but also to every non-magical man, woman and child in Thedas.

Oh, and the Templars only separated themselves from the Chantry after the Divine; and Evangeline, BTW; betrayed them. And they never tried to kill Justinia.

Modifié par MisterJB, 19 juin 2013 - 05:23 .

[Black Jimmy]

I liked all three books but Asunder is by far the best of the lot. Looking forward to the next one.

[lil yonce]

Palidane wrote...
Evangeline was always a moderate templar. She believed mages should be taught, protected, learned from, and regulated in equal measure. Her ideals never changed, what changed was the Templar Order. She was unwilling to go along with Lambert and his ruthless oppression, and took a stand for what she believed in. She is no traitor, if anything the Templars betrayed her. Divorcing themselves from the Chantry? Trying to kill the Divine?

She is a traitor to her uniform moreso than to herself but that can be flaout damning depending on your position. She killed templars she knew in the Order-- men and women who had served under her when she was Knight-Captain-- in IMO a misguided attempt to aid the mages. She twice said nothing as the mages attempted to vote on and later voted for separation. Her reactions to Cole become less and less reasonable to me as a templar. It is obvious IMO her affection for Rhys had hampered her ability to do her job well-- to both help mages and stick to her mandate.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 19 juin 2013 - 09:15 .

[frostajulie]

MisterJB wrote...

 By the end of Asunder, Evangeline had switched from a moderate position to a pro-mage one

I disagree I think she stuck to her guns but when placed in the position of blindly murdering innocents for no reason other than the obvious prejudice of a seemingly powermad seeker or defending her charges she did her duty as a templer, it just so happened that defending her charges meant taking out the murderers that were after them.  I know others see it differently and I am not arguing my way is the only way to see it, just sharing my opposing perspective.  I really enjoyed that book.

[Palidane]

MisterJB wrote...

Palidane wrote...
Evangeline was always a moderate templar. She believed mages should be taught, protected, learned from, and regulated in equal measure. Her ideals never changed, what changed was the Templar Order. She was unwilling to go along with Lambert and his ruthless oppression, and took a stand for what she believed in. She is no traitor, if anything the Templars betrayed her. Divorcing themselves from the Chantry? Trying to kill the Divine?

Being a moderate is fine. I had believed Evangeline was an exemplary templar when she protected non-mages from Adrian but also wasn't willing to just let a mob lynch the mages.
But, at some point, a good templar must realize that this job is also about protecting the world from mages and that, sometimes, it requires hard choices and sacrifices to acomplish this. Assisting in the murder of her brothers-in-arms to free a coterie of mages so that they could start an world war are not the actions of a moderate. By the end of Asunder, Evangeline had switched from a moderate position to a pro-mage one and she is a traitor not just to the Templar Order but also to every non-magical man, woman and child in Thedas.

Oh, and the Templars only separated themselves from the Chantry after the Divine; and Evangeline, BTW; betrayed them. And they never tried to kill Justinia.

"All men are the Work of our Maker's Hands,
From the lowest slaves
To the highest kings.
Those who bring harm
Without provocation to the least of His children
Are hated and accursed by the Maker."

It is not the job of a Templar to oppress mages for the sin of being born. The first duty of every Templar is to do the right thing, so they might stand before the golden throne knowing they pleased the Maker. The Maker never wanted mages locked up and treated like animals. The current Circle system is abusive and horrifying, and completely unsustainable. It utterly fails at it's mission, and cannot be salvaged. The Templars dug their own grave, trying so hard to prevent Tevinter they became Qunari. And that's even before they try to assassinate the Divine (Lambert lets Jeannot out of the Spire so he can have a shot at it). Evangeline did the right thing, and can hopefuly act as a moderating influence at Andoral's Reach.

Modifié par Palidane, 19 juin 2013 - 06:01 .

[MisterJB]

frostajulie wrote...
I disagree I think she stuck to her guns but when placed in the position of blindly murdering innocents for no reason other than the obvious prejudice of a seemingly powermad seeker or defending her charges she did her duty as a templer, it just so happened that defending her charges meant taking out the murderers that were after them.  I know others see it differently and I am not arguing my way is the only way to see it, just sharing my opposing perspective.  I really enjoyed that book.

The priority of a templar is to protect the normal people of Thedas from magic. Ideally, one can find a balance between protecting both mages and non-mages but, as per the Circle system, templars should understand that the protection of Thedas is the priority and not simply the protection of the mage community.
Evangeline did not just kill a few templars, she helped start a world war. Are we supposed to believe she alone is capable of not just making sure that the newly unrestricted mages do not harm non-mages but also of preventing this conflict from killing civillians?
Of course not, that's impossible and she knew this. She shirked her duties in the worst way possible.

[MisterJB]

Palidane wrote...
It is not the job of a Templar to oppress mages for the sin of being born. The first duty of every Templar is to do the right thing, so they might stand before the golden throne knowing they pleased the Maker. The Maker never wanted mages locked up and treated like animals. The current Circle system is abusive and horrifying, and completely unsustainable. It utterly fails at it's mission, and cannot be salvaged. The Templars dug their own grave, trying so hard to prevent Tevinter they became Qunari.

Your opinions of the templars and the Circle are irrelevant in regards to whether Evangeline shirked her duties. The nature of the Circle system makes it clear that while templars should also protect mages, their first duty is to protect Thedas from mages.
By assisting the mages in starting a world war, Evangeline shirked her duties in the worst possible manner.
Maferath would be proud.

If the Maker didn't want the mages locked up, He shouldn't have created magic in the first place.

And that's even before they try to assassinate the Divine (Lambert lets Jeannot out of the Spire so he can have a shot at it).

The book doesn't even suggest that. You came up with it on your own.

Evangeline did the right thing, and can hopefuly act as a moderating influence at Andoral's Reach.

One templar is going to stop hundred of mages from abusing their powers while, at the same time, preventing the templar-mage conflict from spilling into the countryside?
Yeah, good luck with that. Evangeline helped kill thousands of innocents.

Modifié par MisterJB, 19 juin 2013 - 06:08 .

[Palidane]

MisterJB wrote...

And that's even before they try to assassinate the Divine (Lambert lets Jeannot out of the Spire so he can have a shot at it).

The book doesn't even suggest that. You came up with it on your own.

"And why doesn't the Divine simply order the templars to do as she asks?"
"Because it isn't that simple. The Divine must contend with centuries of tradition, and there are those in the Chantry who resist. Or do you truly believe a single mage managed to sneak out of the White Spire and infiltrate the ball at the Imperial Palace, all on his own?" Wynne and Rhys, page 275.

Anyway, I still think Evangeline did the right thing. The Templars had become tyrants, jaded and cruel.The Circle had to change, and sometimes change is violent. It is better to abandon an oath than be hated and accursed by the Maker.

[lil yonce]

Palidane wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

And that's even before they try to assassinate the Divine (Lambert lets Jeannot out of the Spire so he can have a shot at it).

The book doesn't even suggest that. You came up with it on your own.

"And why doesn't the Divine simply order the templars to do as she asks?"
"Because it isn't that simple. The Divine must contend with centuries of tradition, and there are those in the Chantry who resist. Or do you truly believe a single mage managed to sneak out of the White Spire and infiltrate the ball at the Imperial Palace, all on his own?" Wynne and Rhys, page 275.

Lambert wasn't in charge of the White Spire until after the assassination attempt.