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[Palidane]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Palidane wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

And that's even before they try to assassinate the Divine (Lambert lets Jeannot out of the Spire so he can have a shot at it).

The book doesn't even suggest that. You came up with it on your own.

"And why doesn't the Divine simply order the templars to do as she asks?"
"Because it isn't that simple. The Divine must contend with centuries of tradition, and there are those in the Chantry who resist. Or do you truly believe a single mage managed to sneak out of the White Spire and infiltrate the ball at the Imperial Palace, all on his own?" Wynne and Rhys, page 275.

Lambert wasn't in charge of the White Spire until after the assassination attempt.

Unless you want to tell me Arnaud or Knight Commander Eron unleashed a blood mage in room full of Orlesian nobles, I think Lambert is the most likely culprit.

Modifié par Palidane, 19 juin 2013 - 06:35 .

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...
If the Maker didn't want the mages locked up, He shouldn't have created magic in the first place.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Oh my god.

[MisterJB]

Palidane wrote...
"And why doesn't the Divine simply order the templars to do as she asks?"
"Because it isn't that simple. The Divine must contend with centuries of tradition, and there are those in the Chantry who resist. Or do you truly believe a single mage managed to sneak out of the White Spire and infiltrate the ball at the Imperial Palace, all on his own?" Wynne and Rhys, page 275.

Who says it was Lambert? It could have easily been a Grand Cleric. He wasn't even part of the Circle until after the assassination attempt.
Lambert is many things; amongst them, dutiful. Despite his mistrust of mages, he never shirked his duty to them as evidences by his efforts to uncover who was murdering apprentices. It's not likely he would attempt to murder the Divine.

Anyway, I still think Evangeline did the right thing. The Templars had become tyrants, jaded and cruel.The Circle had to change, and sometimes change is violent. It is better to abandon an oath than be hated and accursed by the Maker.

You have a right to your opinion but the facts are that the duty of the Templar Order is to protect Thedas from magic and that Evangeline directly went against this duty when she assisted the mages in setting the continent on fire.

Modifié par MisterJB, 19 juin 2013 - 06:36 .

[lil yonce]

Palidane wrote...

Unless you want to tell me Arnaud or Knight Commander Eron unleashed a blood mage in room full of Orlesian nobles, I think Lambert is the most likely culprit.

There is nothing to support Lambert made this action. As long as you understand its clear supposition colored by your reading of Lambert I have no problem with your opinion.

[Palidane]

MisterJB wrote...

Anyway, I still think Evangeline did the right thing. The Templars had become tyrants, jaded and cruel.The Circle had to change, and sometimes change is violent. It is better to abandon an oath than be hated and accursed by the Maker.

You have a right to your opinion but the facts are that the duty of the Templar Order is to protect Thedas from magic and that Evangeline directly went against this duty when she assisted the mages in setting the continent on fire.

All right, fair enough. But the Templars are at fault for any continent burning. The mages were given explicit permission from the Divine to hold a conclave, when Lambert kicked the door in and attacked. One of his Templars even stabbed a surrendering First Enchanter. He later tells Rhys that he would have all the First Enchanters and anyone else who resisted arrested.

Heck, even when the Spire falls and hundreds of mages go on the run, the first thing they do is meet up and vote on whether to surrender. The only reason they didn't is because they knew Lambert would kill them all. Even when they decide to fight, they hole up in Andoral's Reach and wait for the Templars to attack. Really, I have no idea how anyone could blame the mages for the current war.

Modifié par Palidane, 19 juin 2013 - 07:02 .

[MisterJB]

Palidane wrote...
All right, fair enough. But the Templars are at fault for any continent burning. The mages were given explicit permission from the Divine to hold a conclave, when Lambert kicked the door in and attacked.

The templars are not without blame but permission was given only to discuss the result of Pharamond's research, not to decide whether to start World War Z. Much like Lambert previously had said, the mages were given some leniency and they imediatelly took advantage of it.
I don't support Lambert's action but only and exclusively because they were actually contraproducent.

One of his Templars even stabbed a surrendering First Enchanter. He later tells Rhys that he would have all the First Enchanters and anyone else who resisted arrested.

The fact that they were arrested simply proves that Lambert had no intention to kill anyone. But, when fighting, accidents happen.

Even when they decide to fight, they hole up in Andoral's Reach and wait for the Templars to attack. Really, I have no idea how anyone could blame the mages for the current war.

It could be because of Anders' terrorist attack; the unrelated terrorist attacks of the Resolutionists; the attempted assassination of the Divine; Fiona's strongarm tactics to pass a vote she knew would lead to major armed conflict; Adrian's assassination of Pharamond plus the framing of Rhys exactly to incite armed conflict.
What I have no idea is that how anyone could not blame the mages for helping to start this war.

[Conquerthecity]

A book has fifty pages to impress me and Asunder did not.

But this is coming from a literary snob who was burnt out on fantasy long ago and whose sole interaction with the genre is now video games.

[Beerfish]

Palidane wrote...


I think you found them inconsistent because you had no idea what their ideals were in the first place.

Spoiler Alert!

Rhys is not naturally confrontational, may or may not have been influenced by Cole, and would rather things not go to open war. He is under no obligation to further his mother's cause. He has had leadership thrust upon him, and is still trying to adjust to it.

- He chased after cole mulitple times early in the game was let off the hook repeatedly.
- He stupidly kept refusing to believe that Cole was anything but a poor little ghost.
- He made assumptions about a mages research into the tranquil removable in which a whole town was slaughtered.
- He blamed the templars for a murder when it was his long time mage friend.
- He had a major part in destroying mage phylacteris.
- He had a large part in multiple templar killings
- He helped corrupt a long time Templar into becoming a traitor.
- He avoided and disliked his mother for most of the book
- After her great sacrifice so that his lover would not die he immediately tossed away everything she had worked for for years and voted opposite of what she wanted.


Evangeline was always a moderate templar. She believed mages should be taught, protected, learned from, and regulated in equal measure. Her ideals never changed, what changed was the Templar Order. She was unwilling to go along with Lambert and his ruthless oppression, and took a stand for what she believed in. She is no traitor, if anything the Templars betrayed her. Divorcing themselves from the Chantry? Trying to kill the Divine?

Moderate Templar?  Yes, so what happened to her in the end?  She became a total traitor to the chantry and other templars by her dealings with Rhys, the phylactery business and her killing of fellow templars.  You can't be more of a traitor than she was.  (Well except for Leliana perhaps.)  she did all of this in a short period of time because she seemed to be love/sex starved.  No one really made a compelling enough argument for her to flip flop.

Maybe it was clear to you, but I have no idea what Cole is. A demon? A spirit? A ghost? Something else entirely? He doesn't even know himself. I would not neccessarily call him evil either. His las act was certainly justified.

He was a murdering demon, how is that not clear?  He killed mages to keep himself from disappearing.  He was subject to the Litany of adrella or whatever it is called when Lambert brought it out.  At the very least he was a dangerous murderer no matter what else you think of him.

Wow dude. I can tell right away you never talked to Leliana more than once. She has always had unconventional views on the Maker and mages. She always questioned the Chantry and cherished her own beliefs. She fits in perfectly as the left hand of the new divine (who once saved her life). As for where she sides in the end, I say "Blessed are those who stand before the corrupt and wicked and do not falter".

She is buddies with the seeker in the last game.  she is all about the chantry life and then suddenly she is arropwing templars to death so that a templar traitor, a clueless mage and a mage bent of disolving the circle can get away.  If you are saying the divine wanted events to unfold as they did I'd call bull.  She's a character much like Rhys, her views change like the wind and doom to innocents follows her around.

Wynne tried to reform the Chantry from within, but the Grand Enchanter (and that bastard Adrian) were unwilling to follow her lead, and forced the issue. She sacrificed her life for her son, and his happiness, and for one righteous templar. That is exactly what Wynne would die for, and the perfect end to her character. I literally cannot think of a better way for her to go.

LOL  righteous Templar?  Please.  She sacrificed her life just as you say for her son and his lover no doubt about it.  Her son promptly repaid her sacrifice by tossing aside all the views she held dear in about 30 seconds....well because he is Rhys.

Modifié par Beerfish, 19 juin 2013 - 07:43 .

[devSin]

I don't agree that his earlier books were necessarily "unimpressive", but I also found Asunder to the be best of the three. His writing definitely improved with each book, and the latest was a great read from nearly the first page (the biggest thing I remember from the first two was that I would have to struggle to finish each chapter—they seemed to just go on and on, long past the point of necessity or even interest).

It's a shame that he's not writing the fourth. No disrespect to Patrick, but I don't think I'll really be picking that one up on release (maybe I'll check it out when DA3 gets closer to release).

[Fredward]

Mungolian_ wrote...
A book has fifty pages to impress me and Asunder did not.

Uh, for a self proclaimed literary snob 50 pages is awfully few. You're closing off a lot of doors with that statement.


I haven't read Mr Gaider's previous books but Asunder struck me as above average. Not amazing but definitely above mediocre.

[Ieldra]

devSin wrote...
I don't agree that his earlier books were necessarily "unimpressive", but I also found Asunder to the be best of the three. His writing definitely improved with each book, and the latest was a great read from nearly the first page (the biggest thing I remember from the first two was that I would have to struggle to finish each chapter—they seemed to just go on and on, long past the point of necessity or even interest).

The latter is the main reason why I found them unimpressive. You can make a lot of mistakes in a book, but failing to make the reader want to read the next page and make them rather want to skip to the next chapter is a serious failure. "Asunder" is markedly different in that.

It's a shame that he's not writing the fourth. No disrespect to Patrick, but I don't think I'll really be picking that one up on release (maybe I'll check it out when DA3 gets closer to release).

I like to give new writers a chance. If the plot sounds interesting, I'll get it. Having said that, I have bought enough books to acquire some experience in separating the trash from the rest from blurbs and summaries alone, even considering that with the rise of  electronic self-publishing, the percentage of crap has drastically increased. 

[devSin]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I like to give new writers a chance. If the plot sounds interesting, I'll get it. Having said that, I have bought enough books to acquire some experience in separating the trash from the rest from blurbs and summaries alone, even considering that with the rise of  electronic self-publishing, the percentage of crap has drastically increased.

I didn't pick up David's first two books all that soon either, but I liked enough of what I saw to start preordering with the third (including the hardcopies of his comics).

David seems to have confidence in Patrick, which is nice, and I know I'll get the book someday (I'll probably want to read it before playing DA3, although I didn't read any of David's until after playing the game they were intended to preface), but I'm not going to run out and buy it as soon as it's released.

[Sylvianus]

Objectively Asunder was much better written. But personally this is the book I prefer the least. And by far for several reasons. Also, I found that the characters were less charismatic overall. ( Except Wynn who was really awesome. )
I hated Evangeline. Bad templar is bad. And the worst with her is how throughout the book, she was presented as the perfect little Templar, as a badaaaass woman while actually she was just being incompetent with her " compassion and morality ". It left a bad taste in my mouth.

And Fiona is even more detestable than in the calling. Really this is the first time I hate strong female characters. Normally, their are among my favourite ones, especially with Bioware.

In short, in Asunder, I never felt much love for any character unlike Maric, Loghain, Rowan and Katriel for example.

Except Wynn. <3

This is that kind of mage that makes me want to be at its side, not idiots like Anders.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 19 juin 2013 - 09:52 .

[AstraDrakkar]

I really have not had any interest in purchasing any of the DA books, as my interest has been limited to the games. If I were going to buy one of the books in the future though, which one would contain the most lore?

Modifié par AstraDrakkar, 19 juin 2013 - 09:55 .

[devSin]

They all contain lore, but they're intended to really introduce in greater detail some of the themes and characters that take place in the games.

The Stolen Throne concentrated on Maric and Loghain and the war to liberate Ferelden, and it introduced Flemeth. That help set up the world and leads into Origins.

The Calling dealt somewhat with the Grey Wardens and the darkspawn, and introduced the Architect. It was more a dungeon crawl involving Maric and Duncan and a group of Wardens, and obviously goes hand-in-hand with Awakening.

Asunder was likely intended to bring us to Exalted March (curse you, Mark!), and deals with the Circle and the Templars, and also focuses a tiny bit on the nature of spirits. It also sets up stuff about Tranquility that will undoubtedly be important in the future. This is the best-written of the three, and if you're only going to read one, I'd recommend it be Asunder.

The comics are really fun too, although I've only really read the first so far (I wanted to get one last playthrough of the games out of the way before being spoiled by all the additional lore). David seems to have lucked out in getting paired with Alexander Freed, who I think did a great job.

Modifié par devSin, 19 juin 2013 - 10:34 .

[Firky]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Mungolian_ wrote...
A book has fifty pages to impress me and Asunder did not.

Uh, for a self proclaimed literary snob 50 pages is awfully few. You're closing off a lot of doors with that statement.

I haven't read Mr Gaider's previous books but Asunder struck me as above average. Not amazing but definitely above mediocre.

50 pages? Even if I've paid good money for a book, if it doesn't have me after 5 pages, forget it. Life's too short. (And money's tight, so that's saying something - but I generally buy carefully.)

I have to say, much as I enjoyed Asunder, I think Beerfish makes some good points. I don't think I actually "liked"  any of the characters. But I think it highlighted the naivety that that kind of life might foster. Also, the arrogance of people who think they have all the answers but really haven't reflected on their situation.

I definitely didn't like Cole. I'm not entirely sure how much of his personality has been eroded. I thought he was a good character for a book. I have great misgivings about him being in the game as a companion. But I'd be interested to see how it was handled, if so. (I think the writers would probably do a good job, but I think I lack the imagination to guess how.)

(PS. To illustrate my point about books having to grab you, a friend bought me World of Thedas, and much as I am really grateful for the thoughtful present, I just can't get into it. I can't get into the way the writing is structured. I think I've read about 10 pages. These days, I think time is my most valubale commodity. There has to be a hook.)

Modifié par Firky, 19 juin 2013 - 11:55 .

[Conquerthecity]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Mungolian_ wrote...
A book has fifty pages to impress me and Asunder did not.

Uh, for a self proclaimed literary snob 50 pages is awfully few. You're closing off a lot of doors with that statement.


I haven't read Mr Gaider's previous books but Asunder struck me as above average. Not amazing but definitely above mediocre.

I don't have the patience to wait for something to be good. If things suddenly get intersting/impressive after fifty pages, you probably should have just started there. 

[Silfren]

Ieldra2 wrote...

...and I wonder if I'm the only one.

I was thoroughly unimpressed by David Gaider's earlier books, "The Stolen Throne" and "The Calling", but his writing has improved considerably in "Asunder". There are compelling characters and believable pacing, and I suspect there may have been a conscious attempt to avoid being unduly influenced by the conventions of video game storytelling, unlike the older books. "Asunder" has merits on its own, it's more than an accessory to the games, and the first book I've read that breaks the rule "books based on video games are crap." It's very enjoyable to read.

Really nice work. I wouldn't mind reading more like that. 

Agreed that Asunder was a better book than the previous two.  I didn't dislike Stolen Throne or The Calling, but I did find Asunder's writing to be much improved. 

How do you mean that Stolen Throne and Calling were influenced by video game story conventions?  Could you give some concrete examples? 

[Mr.House]

Xilizhra wrote...

I quite liked Asunder too, and never quite understood the Adrian hate.

Not my fault Adrian gave me so much ammo to dislike her, along with her just annoying me.

[Silfren]

Firky wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Mungolian_ wrote...
A book has fifty pages to impress me and Asunder did not.

Uh, for a self proclaimed literary snob 50 pages is awfully few. You're closing off a lot of doors with that statement.

I haven't read Mr Gaider's previous books but Asunder struck me as above average. Not amazing but definitely above mediocre.

50 pages? Even if I've paid good money for a book, if it doesn't have me after 5 pages, forget it. Life's too short. (And money's tight, so that's saying something - but I generally buy carefully.)

...

(PS. To illustrate my point about books having to grab you, a friend bought me World of Thedas, and much as I am really grateful for the thoughtful present, I just can't get into it. I can't get into the way the writing is structured. I think I've read about 10 pages. These days, I think time is my most valubale commodity. There has to be a hook.)

No kidding.  Literary snob or not, a book obviously has something WRONG with it if it takes a solid 50 pages to engage readers.  Of course, one person's boring is another person's exciting, so there's that, but still.  It's kind of obnoxious to go around claiming that "50 pages is awfully few" pages to give a book the chance to impress someone. 

Books should engage a reader on page one, and certainly within the two or three pages; and especially if a large population of people are finding that a given book doesn't interest them until they're more than fifty pages in, then there IS something wrong with the book itself.  If I've read fifty pages into a book, I'm almost certainly going to finish it, because something about it has been compelling enough to keep me reading--if I find a book to be genuinely bad, I'd sooner drink bleach than waste my time reading it.  Life's too short to read bad books.

Modifié par Silfren, 20 juin 2013 - 04:07 .

[Rawgrim]

I liked Asunder very well. I think i gave it a 4 on Goodreads. My biggest gripe with it, though, was that Wynne got killed off. Would have been better if she had dies in a game, and not in an optional addition to the game-setting.

[Silfren]

Rawgrim wrote...

I liked Asunder very well. I think i gave it a 4 on Goodreads. My biggest gripe with it, though, was that Wynne got killed off. Would have been better if she had dies in a game, and not in an optional addition to the game-setting.

I agree that it was odd to take a character who played a major role in the first game, who had different ending variables, and plop them into a story that requires a specific canon background for her to be in it in the first place, given that, by the ending, she seemed to have a specific purpose for being in the story...SPOILER: since it is by her death that Evangeline is restored to life, how is this supposed to work for DA3 world states in which Wynne died during the events of Origins?  It bugs me because Evangeline and Rhys seem to be written to be major characters for the next game, but Evangeline's existence kind of depends on Wynne's fate. 

[dragonflight288]

It's been awhile since I've read it, but I enjoyed it.

[Rawgrim]

Silfren wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

I liked Asunder very well. I think i gave it a 4 on Goodreads. My biggest gripe with it, though, was that Wynne got killed off. Would have been better if she had dies in a game, and not in an optional addition to the game-setting.

I agree that it was odd to take a character who played a major role in the first game, who had different ending variables, and plop them into a story that requires a specific canon background for her to be in it in the first place, given that, by the ending, she seemed to have a specific purpose for being in the story...SPOILER: since it is by her death that Evangeline is restored to life, how is this supposed to work for DA3 world states in which Wynne died during the events of Origins?  It bugs me because Evangeline and Rhys seem to be written to be major characters for the next game, but Evangeline's existence kind of depends on Wynne's fate. 

Never thought of that. Its actually a massive potential plot-hole.

[Silfren]

Rawgrim wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

I liked Asunder very well. I think i gave it a 4 on Goodreads. My biggest gripe with it, though, was that Wynne got killed off. Would have been better if she had dies in a game, and not in an optional addition to the game-setting.

I agree that it was odd to take a character who played a major role in the first game, who had different ending variables, and plop them into a story that requires a specific canon background for her to be in it in the first place, given that, by the ending, she seemed to have a specific purpose for being in the story...SPOILER: since it is by her death that Evangeline is restored to life, how is this supposed to work for DA3 world states in which Wynne died during the events of Origins?  It bugs me because Evangeline and Rhys seem to be written to be major characters for the next game, but Evangeline's existence kind of depends on Wynne's fate. 

Never thought of that. Its actually a massive potential plot-hole.

I suppose the obvious answer is that neither Rhys nor Evangeline were ever meant to be in the next game, but it seems odd that that would be the case, given their prominence.