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[lil yonce]

Xilizhra wrote...

And what he thought was right could very well be wrong and turn out extremely bad for many mages. He made decisions out of passion moreso than reason. That is doing what feels good for you in the end.

Well, Cole killed Lambert; that's worth a heck of a lot. And Rhys definitely made the right choice in the end, if nothing else.

It makes compromise more likely. And I don't think Rhys made the right choice but that's my opinion.

[Ieldra]

Baelyn wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Not having likable characters can diminish the joy of reading it. Not saying the book was bad but it sucked that the main characters didn't hold my interest. Then Wynne had to die just to keep one of the dullest characters alive.

+1

I guess I'm just weird but I rather enjoyed Cole, Rhys and Evangeline. Adrian...now thats another story.

SPOILERS!!
Ironically one of my favorite characters turned out to be Lambert. Shame what happened to him in the end, as I was looking forward to my Inquisitor being the one to off him. 

Haha....that's one of very few legitimate reasons to regret his death. If dead he is. Several sources tell us he's "presumed dead". That's almost as good as saying he's alive.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 20 juin 2013 - 05:08 .

[MWImexico]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

And what he thought was right could very well be wrong and turn out extremely bad for many mages. He made decisions out of passion moreso than reason. That is doing what feels good for you in the end.

Well, Cole killed Lambert; that's worth a heck of a lot. And Rhys definitely made the right choice in the end, if nothing else.

It makes compromise more likely. And I don't think Rhys made the right choice but that's my opinion.

Yes, I understand this is your opinion as a reader. But what would you have done if you were really at Rhys place, if you had experienced what he has experienced?

[Xilizhra]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

And what he thought was right could very well be wrong and turn out extremely bad for many mages. He made decisions out of passion moreso than reason. That is doing what feels good for you in the end.

Well, Cole killed Lambert; that's worth a heck of a lot. And Rhys definitely made the right choice in the end, if nothing else.

It makes compromise more likely. And I don't think Rhys made the right choice but that's my opinion.

There is no compromise; I more meant that it'd damage the templar chain of command and possibly take the wind out of their sails for any theoretical Andoral's Reach attack.

[Baelyn]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Baelyn wrote...

Just because Lambert caught on to what Cole was before Rhys did, means nothing.

It means a lot. He was schooled in his area of expertise by a Seeker. It demonstrates exactly how foolish and careless he was. Rhys should have known as a Senior Enchanter-- a spirit medium with a specialization in demonology-- what he was dealing with, and he should have considered his actions in involving himself with a spirit without approval. He had opportunity to explain himself early on and he and blew it.

I beg to differ on him doing what "he feels is good for him." Most the times what he decided to do put himself directly in harmful situations. And he made those choices because they were what he thought was right, not because they were easy.

And what he thought was right could very well be wrong and turn out extremely bad for many mages. He made decisions out of passion moreso than reason. That is doing what feels good for you in the end.

But we are never clearly told that Rhys even knew he was dealing with a spirit when he found Cole. Cole's power could have already been at work the first time he met Rhys. The book is very ambiguous about this on purpose. Gaider wants you to understand how hard it is for mages to distinguish demonic influence.

Also do not under-estimate Lambert. He served many years in the Teviniter and saw more types of foul magic than Rhys probably even was aware existed.

Just doing what you believe is right, no matter the consequences can not so easily just be lumped into "what feels good for you." Had Rhys been purely about passion he would have never butted heads with Adrian as he did. He saw both sides for what they were: extreme. The same falsed dichotomy we see here in the political system in America. Society wants to pressure us to "choose a side" defying that there can be anything in between. Which ultimately, despite his best efforts, he was not able to escape in the end.

[Bleachrude]

How come Lambert (and by extension Fenris) not garner the same amount of trust/empathy given that they grew up in Tevinter....yet a mage from Ferelden's circle garners a whole lot of sympathy?

Is it because we never got to experience it first hand so that people think Lambert and Fenris are simply exaggerating how bad it is in Tevinter?

[Xilizhra]

Bleachrude wrote...

How come Lambert (and by extension Fenris) not garner the same amount of trust/empathy given that they grew up in Tevinter....yet a mage from Ferelden's circle garners a whole lot of sympathy?

Is it because we never got to experience it first hand so that people think Lambert and Fenris are simply exaggerating how bad it is in Tevinter?

Two reasons. One, it's quite possible that they are exaggerating. Two, because Anders is criticizing the Circle system that he and the game are in, but Lambert is attacking all mages who are from a completely different culture than Tevinter, which is bad for reasons that have nothing to do with magic.

[lil yonce]

Baelyn wrote...

But we are never clearly told that Rhys even knew he was dealing with a spirit when he found Cole. Cole's power could have already been at work the first time he met Rhys. The book is very ambiguous about this on purpose. Gaider wants you to understand how hard it is for mages to distinguish demonic influence.

Rhys wrote the book Lambert uses to school him. Rhys should have known what Cole was. Reading the sections on Cole from Rhys POV he knew Cole was a spirit. He should have distanced himself as a scholar and absolutely as a mage to properly investigate if he was so curious about the White Spire Ghost.

Also do not under-estimate Lambert. He served many years in the Teviniter and saw more types of foul magic than Rhys probably even was aware existed.

Again-- Rhys wrote the book on it.

Just doing what you believe is right, no matter the consequences can not so easily just be lumped into "what feels good for you."

It can.

Had Rhys been purely about passion he would have never butted heads with Adrian as he did. He saw both sides for what they were: extreme. The same falsed dichotomy we see here in the political system in America. Society wants to pressure us to "choose a side" defying that there can be anything in between. Which ultimately, despite his best efforts, he was not able to escape in the end.

Passion is not code for extremism. He doesn't have to be a copy of Adrian to have made a decision from passion. And making a decision from passion moreso than reason is not a good thing to do when lives are on the line. Especially when you're unsure of the decision. You should use your head and not your heart. 

[lil yonce]

Xilizhra wrote...

There is no compromise;

So you say. I'm not against mages who absolutely want to fight the templars doing so. Just don't make everyone else do it. If a compromise happens, those who want to leave should be able to do so.

I more meant that it'd damage the templar chain of command and possibly take the wind out of their sails for any theoretical Andoral's Reach attack.

Maybe. Depends on who takes command. The real deterrent is that its going to be a siege attempt.

EDIT: Small edit for clarification. 

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 20 juin 2013 - 06:03 .

[d-boy15]

Great... Another DA thread turn to damn Mage vs. Templar pointless debate.

Modifié par d-boy15, 20 juin 2013 - 05:39 .

[Xilizhra]

So you say. I'm not against mages who absolutely want to fight the templars doing so. Just make everyone else do it. If a compromise happens those who want to leave should be able to do so.

I'm sure they can, if they want to be executed or made Tranquil.

Great... Another DA thread turn to damn Mage vs. Templar pointless debate.

It's Asunder, that's the entire point of the book.

[Baelyn]

There is a difference in writing a book (scholar knowledge) and actually seeing it for yourself (applied knowledge). Just because Rhys wrote about spirits like this does not make him immune to one's influence should he meet one. For all we know Rhys just assumed that he was a young kid that had gotten forgotten in the dungeons when he first met him. This would have cause him to instantly have his guard down. A demon that has control of the mind makes knowledge powerless.

[lil yonce]

Xilizhra wrote...

So you say. I'm not against mages who absolutely want to fight the templars doing so. Just make everyone else do it. If a compromise happens those who want to leave should be able to do so.

I'm sure they can, if they want to be executed or made Tranquil.

That's not a compromise. A real compromise will be on the table in DA:I, I'm confident.

[Xilizhra]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So you say. I'm not against mages who absolutely want to fight the templars doing so. Just make everyone else do it. If a compromise happens those who want to leave should be able to do so.

I'm sure they can, if they want to be executed or made Tranquil.

That's not a compromise. A real compromise will be on the table in DA:I, I'm confident.

We shall see, but the game won't end with the Circles being reestablished. Of that, I'm even more confident.

[Silfren]

thats1evildude wrote...

Silfren wrote...

I agree that it was odd to take a character who played a major role in the first game, who had different ending variables, and plop them into a story that requires a specific canon background for her to be in it in the first place, given that, by the ending, she seemed to have a specific purpose for being in the story...SPOILER: since it is by her death that Evangeline is restored to life, how is this supposed to work for DA3 world states in which Wynne died during the events of Origins?  It bugs me because Evangeline and Rhys seem to be written to be major characters for the next game, but Evangeline's existence kind of depends on Wynne's fate.

But if Wynne isn't present, then the story unfolds in a different way and the circumstances that lead to Evangeline being stabbed may never occur. Her absence doesn't affect just that one event, but the whole story.

Who knows? Without Wynne around, maybe Evangeline wins her fight with Lambert, or perhaps Cole kills him. Maybe they never fight at all — perhaps, without Wynne present, the Circle mages successfully hold their vote on separating from the Chantry and then simply fight off Lambert and his Seekers when they come to interrupt the conclave.

I realize that Wynne's presence or lack thereof affects the entire plot.  The end point was just the one that matters the most to me personally, because I like the characters of Evangeline and Rhys.  But yeah, I wonder how the events of Asunder are suppose to fit in with the larger narrative.  Is the story of DA3 going to reference the larger events without giving us any details, so that the events can be understood to have happened with any previous game canons? Or is it that the events of Asunder aren't meant to be fit into the larger DA narrative at all.  The latter would be the easiest, but it would be damned cheap, especially since most people are already incorporating Asunder's narrative into the larger story.  Even with the former, and only referencing the major events in a vague way, it's going to be problematic.

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...

And what he thought was right could very well be wrong and turn out extremely bad for many mages. He made decisions out of passion moreso than reason. That is doing what feels good for you in the end.

Well, Cole killed Lambert; that's worth a heck of a lot. And Rhys definitely made the right choice in the end, if nothing else.

More importantly, he chose to fight for good reasons.  Not out of blind hatred or vengeance.  He's not out for blood.

[lil yonce]

Baelyn wrote...

There is a difference in writing a book (scholar knowledge) and actually seeing it for yourself (applied knowledge). Just because Rhys wrote about spirits like this does not make him immune to one's influence should he meet one. For all we know Rhys just assumed that he was a young kid that had gotten forgotten in the dungeons when he first met him. This would have cause him to instantly have his guard down. A demon that has control of the mind makes knowledge powerless.

He knew Cole was a spirit. The book says so. He wanted to investigate what kind of spirit Cole was. He was able to reason that much under demonic influence or not. He was foolish and careless to keep going back without supervision.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 20 juin 2013 - 06:06 .

[Silfren]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
It's fine to take a while to get into the actual meat of the plot, but you have to have something to secure interest. Generally, I'm willing to give any story a certain amount of time to establish characters and setting before it gets into the nitty-gritty, but I feel that the best stories develop character, setting and plot simultaneously.

Well yeah, but that development shouldn't be done in the first 50 pages (unless you're reading a book of like 250 pages and even then...) you're just asking for flat characters, a dull setting and predictable plot that way. The development should be continuous throughout and yeah good stories often put in hooks early so that the reader wants to read further but not all hooks work for all readers, some people just don't want that kind of story or they miss the point and the failure doesn't lie with the book then.

But anyway. 50 pages is still too short to get to anything really meaningful IMO. Unless it's a short book.

The length of a book is irrelevant, but I think the issue here lies in how we define "meaningful."  I've read phenomenal books that were 150 pages, and others in excess of a thousand.  I've also read utterly forgettable books at both lengths.  But for ANY book I've read and enjoyed, by the time I've gotten fifty pages into the story, if I'm going to continue reading, it's because there IS something interesting.  A lot of books I've loved don't really "get going" or get to the "meat" of the story until you're a few hundred pages in, but I certainly don't mean by that that the story is boring or the characters uninteresting, etc.

[MWImexico]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Passion is not code for extremism. He doesn't have to be a copy of Adrian to have made a decision from passion. And making a decision from passion moreso than reason is not a good thing to do when lives are on the line. Especially when you're unsure of the decision. You should use your head and not your heart. 

I've got to say, this is much reassuring in fact. I'd rather have an open minded person as representative of mages. Better someone who is ready to discuss and adpapt his point of vue to what is really happening around him than someone who will always stay stuck on : one ideology / revenge / blinded fear.

Adrian en Fiona might be a little more difficult to handle, if  you ask me. Rhys seems to be reasonable in comparaison.   

[Silfren]

Xilizhra wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

I liked Asunder very well. I think i gave it a 4 on Goodreads. My biggest gripe with it, though, was that Wynne got killed off. Would have been better if she had dies in a game, and not in an optional addition to the game-setting.

I agree that it was odd to take a character who played a major role in the first game, who had different ending variables, and plop them into a story that requires a specific canon background for her to be in it in the first place, given that, by the ending, she seemed to have a specific purpose for being in the story...SPOILER: since it is by her death that Evangeline is restored to life, how is this supposed to work for DA3 world states in which Wynne died during the events of Origins?  It bugs me because Evangeline and Rhys seem to be written to be major characters for the next game, but Evangeline's existence kind of depends on Wynne's fate. 

Wynne can canonically come back from the dead because of the spirit of faith. It's fairly easy.

I agree, she could...it's an obvious save for the plot hole.  It could be argued that she has a more plausible return from the dead than Leliana, but under the circumstances I think Wynne's return from the dead after being killed by the Warden would actually be more problematic.

[lil yonce]

MWImexico wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

Passion is not code for extremism. He doesn't have to be a copy of Adrian to have made a decision from passion. And making a decision from passion moreso than reason is not a good thing to do when lives are on the line. Especially when you're unsure of the decision. You should use your head and not your heart. 

I've got to say, this is much reassuring in fact. I'd rather have an open minded person as representative of mages. Better someone who is ready to discuss and adpapt his point of vue to what is really happening around him than someone who will always stay stuck on : one ideology / revenge / blinded fear.

Adrian en Fiona might be a little more difficult to handle, if  you ask me. Rhys seems to be reasonable in comparaison. 

Leaders need conviction. If they don't have it-- its the blind leading the blind. Fiona and Adrian do have that at least. Being open-minded and moderate is good to a point of course but when you're in a difficult situation and in charge of lives the stakes are higher. You must have an opinion based solidly around a reasonable viewpoint. You can't be wishy washy when your actions are responsible for the lives hundreds of people. Its fine to be an on the fence moderate when you're not in charge. You can't be that when you're a leader. Apdaptable leaders-- good. On the fence leaders-- bad.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 20 juin 2013 - 06:16 .

[Silfren]

Baelyn wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

Baelyn wrote...

Asunder was incredible in my opinion. Totally captured the same spirit of DA:O with its characters and storyline. Not sure why so much hate for Rhys. I thought he was fantastic. I didn't think he was a moron at all. He defied a boring idealistic character approach at every turn, instead trying to be more objective at every decision, Rather than taking a side (templars or mages) he did what he thought best in each situation, rose above the false dichotomy if you will.

Read my list earlier on in this thread why so much hate for Rhys.  He traipses through  the story doing only what he feels is good for him leaving ruin all around him as he goes.  He does it with a chuckle and an air of naivete but in the end he's not too bright and very selfish.

How is he selfish? How is he not bright?

**SPOILERS**

Just because Lambert caught on to what Cole was before Rhys did, means nothing. Lambert was not the one being deceived.  Cole was directly influencing Rhys to manipulate him, it was easy for someone with a bit of knowledge of the matter looking on from the outside to tell what he was.

I beg to differ on him doing what "he feels is good for him." Most the times what he decided to do put himself directly in harmful situations. And he made those choices because they were what he thought was right, not because they were easy.

See, I'm in the camp that thinks Lambert doesn't get the final say on what Cole was.  I'm not at all convinced that Cole is a typical demon who was manipulating Rhys.  I think the whole point of presenting us with Cole's story was to let us know that there's more to the Fade and the denizens that live there than the Chantry wants to believe.  The ending of the book goes out of its way to point out that people need to put aside their assumptions, and even after Lambert declares that Cole is a demon, Evangeline is there to call that conclusion into question.

[Iakus]

Silfren wrote...

See, I'm in the camp that thinks Lambert doesn't get the final say on what Cole was.  I'm not at all convinced that Cole is a typical demon who was manipulating Rhys.  I think the whole point of presenting us with Cole's story was to let us know that there's more to the Fade and the denizens that live there than the Chantry wants to believe.  The ending of the book goes out of its way to point out that people need to put aside their assumptions, and even after Lambert declares that Cole is a demon, Evangeline is there to call that conclusion into question.

Exactly.  I think Cole shows us we don't know as much about the denizens of the Fade as we think we do.

[Xilizhra]

I agree, she could...it's an obvious save for the plot hole. It could be argued that she has a more plausible return from the dead than Leliana, but under the circumstances I think Wynne's return from the dead after being killed by the Warden would actually be more problematic.

Why is it more problematic? She already came back from the dead once and no one complained, before the Warden met her in the tower.

[Silfren]

Xilizhra wrote...

I agree, she could...it's an obvious save for the plot hole. It could be argued that she has a more plausible return from the dead than Leliana, but under the circumstances I think Wynne's return from the dead after being killed by the Warden would actually be more problematic.

Why is it more problematic? She already came back from the dead once and no one complained, before the Warden met her in the tower.

I disagree.  I don't think she was actually dead at that point, just very very close to dying.

Modifié par Silfren, 20 juin 2013 - 06:22 .