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[Hazegurl]

Bleachrude wrote...

How come Lambert (and by extension Fenris) not garner the same amount of trust/empathy given that they grew up in Tevinter....yet a mage from Ferelden's circle garners a whole lot of sympathy?

Is it because we never got to experience it first hand so that people think Lambert and Fenris are simply exaggerating how bad it is in Tevinter?

Because some people don't want to think of mages as doing wrong.  Or they want to go the "it's not EVERY mage" route and acknowledging a place like Tevinter, which is mages at their worst, would somehow be acknowledging the opposite exterme. IMO, it doesn't. The fact remains overall, is that we are introduced to mages as being oppressed since origins. We've never had a true Templar pov (I don't count Alistair), and when a Templar is protrayed as likable, it all extends to them having an extreme Mage freedom pov. Even if they had a more balanced opinion before. Evangeline is a prime example of this. So far Cullen is the only Templar I have seen that is balanced, I'm sure there are posters who would disagree because he's not neutral, but I don't expect a Templar to be neutral anymore than I would expect a mage in the Circle to be. I hope it stays that way for the character but a part of me thinks otherwise. 

Anyway, most people who opt for the "mages should be free" pov will chose to dismiss Lambert and Fenris and claim that their accounts are not valid, nevermind  that all the evidence points to them telling the truth about that place. 

[Silfren]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Baelyn wrote...

There is a difference in writing a book (scholar knowledge) and actually seeing it for yourself (applied knowledge). Just because Rhys wrote about spirits like this does not make him immune to one's influence should he meet one. For all we know Rhys just assumed that he was a young kid that had gotten forgotten in the dungeons when he first met him. This would have cause him to instantly have his guard down. A demon that has control of the mind makes knowledge powerless.

He knew Cole was a spirit. The book says so. He wanted to investigate what kind of spirit Cole was. He was able to reason that much under demonic influence or not. He was foolish and careless to keep going back without supervision.

Could you point to specific passages in the book where it's spelled out--unambiguously so--that Rhys thinks Cole is a spirit?  I seem to remember he thought, at least at first, that Cole was a mage who'd been forgotten.

[Iakus]

Silfren wrote...

I disagree.  I don't think she was actually dead at that point, just very very close to dying.

Yep, it's one of those limits Once the soul is gone to...wherever..., no amount of healing will restore them.  That's pretty much what the Spirit of Faith did, kept Wynne's body going while her soul was still connected to it.

[Mr.House]

Bleachrude wrote...

How come Lambert (and by extension Fenris) not garner the same amount of trust/empathy given that they grew up in Tevinter....yet a mage from Ferelden's circle garners a whole lot of sympathy?

Is it because we never got to experience it first hand so that people think Lambert and Fenris are simply exaggerating how bad it is in Tevinter?

Because they are not innocent fluffy mages who are being oppresed, SO YOU CAN'T FEEL SORRY FOR THEM.

*I feel sorry for Fenris and Lambert more then any mage in the series*

[Hazegurl]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Leaders need conviction. If they don't have it-- its the blind leading the blind. Fiona and Adrian do have that at least. Being open-minded and moderate is good to a point of course but when you're in a difficult situation and in charge of lives the stakes are higher. You must have an opinion based solidly around a reasonable viewpoint. You can't be wishy washy when your actions are responsible for the lives hundreds of people. Its fine to be an on the fence moderate when you're not in charge. You can't be that when you're a leader. Apdaptable leaders-- good. On the fence leaders-- bad.

I agree, what happens to on the fence leaders is the samething that happened to Rhys. You end up getting railroaded by the others whose convictions are stronger. It truly sucked that when everyone is standing around waiting for his decision he gets led around by the b@lls by Fiona and Adrian. 

[Mr.House]

Xilizhra wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

How come Lambert (and by extension Fenris) not garner the same amount of trust/empathy given that they grew up in Tevinter....yet a mage from Ferelden's circle garners a whole lot of sympathy?

Is it because we never got to experience it first hand so that people think Lambert and Fenris are simply exaggerating how bad it is in Tevinter?

Two reasons. One, it's quite possible that they are exaggerating. Two, because Anders is criticizing the Circle system that he and the game are in, but Lambert is attacking all mages who are from a completely different culture than Tevinter, which is bad for reasons that have nothing to do with magic.

Because Anders is also telling the full truth and not exaggerating right?

[Iakus]

Hazegurl wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

How come Lambert (and by extension Fenris) not garner the same amount of trust/empathy given that they grew up in Tevinter....yet a mage from Ferelden's circle garners a whole lot of sympathy?

Is it because we never got to experience it first hand so that people think Lambert and Fenris are simply exaggerating how bad it is in Tevinter?

Because some people don't want to think of mages as doing wrong.  Or they want to go the "it's not EVERY mage" route and acknowledging a place like Tevinter, which is mages at their worst, would somehow be acknowledging the opposite exterme. IMO, it doesn't. The fact remains overall, is that we are introduced to mages as being oppressed since origins. We've never had a true Templar pov (I don't count Alistair), and when a Templar is protrayed as likable, it all extends to them having an extreme Mage freedom pov. Even if they had a more balanced opinion before. Evangeline is a prime example of this. So far Cullen is the only Templar I have seen that is balanced, I'm sure there are posters who would disagree because he's not neutral, but I don't expect a Templar to be neutral anymore than I would expect a mage in the Circle to be. I hope it stays that way for the character but a part of me thinks otherwise. 

Anyway, most people who opt for the "mages should be free" pov will chose to dismiss Lambert and Fenris and claim that their accounts are not valid, nevermind  that all the evidence points to them telling the truth about that place. 

Yeah it's kinda that absolutist vision they have.  Having a firsthand look at the abuses a magical society can perpetrate makes their viewpont to some degree sympathetic.  But when they take it to the extreme that "this is what all mages would do, given the chance" that they lose credibility.  And the moral high ground.

[Plaintiff]

Bleachrude wrote...

How come Lambert (and by extension Fenris) not garner the same amount of trust/empathy given that they grew up in Tevinter....yet a mage from Ferelden's circle garners a whole lot of sympathy?

Because experiencing trauma does not give you license to irrationally hate an entire group of people just because they happen to share an unavoidable genetic trait with the one who wronged you.

[MWImexico]

Youth4Ever wrote...
Leaders need conviction. If they don't have it-- its the blind leading the blind. Fiona and Adrian do have that at least. Being open-minded and moderate is good to a point of course but when you're in a difficult situation and in charge of lives the stakes are higher. You must have an opinion based solidly around a reasonable viewpoint. You can't be wishy washy when your actions are responsible for the lives hundreds of people. Its fine to be an on the fence moderate when you're not in charge. You can't be that when you're a leader. Apdaptable leaders-- good. On the fence leaders-- bad.

Well, I think Rhys correspond to the description of reasonable leader. That's what I meant

Knowing how tricky the situation is, not jumping too fast on the "war-solution" seems to be wise. People are going to die. The problem is that mages are fed up about their bad treatments to the point they are ready to die for an improvement.

[Plaintiff]

Mr.House wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

How come Lambert (and by extension Fenris) not garner the same amount of trust/empathy given that they grew up in Tevinter....yet a mage from Ferelden's circle garners a whole lot of sympathy?

Is it because we never got to experience it first hand so that people think Lambert and Fenris are simply exaggerating how bad it is in Tevinter?

Two reasons. One, it's quite possible that they are exaggerating. Two, because Anders is criticizing the Circle system that he and the game are in, but Lambert is attacking all mages who are from a completely different culture than Tevinter, which is bad for reasons that have nothing to do with magic.

Because Anders is also telling the full truth and not exaggerating right?

Anders manages to at least not tar every single Templar with the same brush, even though being a Templar is a willing decision and being a mage is not.

[Mr.House]

Plaintiff wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

How come Lambert (and by extension Fenris) not garner the same amount of trust/empathy given that they grew up in Tevinter....yet a mage from Ferelden's circle garners a whole lot of sympathy?

Is it because we never got to experience it first hand so that people think Lambert and Fenris are simply exaggerating how bad it is in Tevinter?

Two reasons. One, it's quite possible that they are exaggerating. Two, because Anders is criticizing the Circle system that he and the game are in, but Lambert is attacking all mages who are from a completely different culture than Tevinter, which is bad for reasons that have nothing to do with magic.

Because Anders is also telling the full truth and not exaggerating right?

Anders manages to at least not tar every single Templar with the same brush, even though being a Templar is a willing decision and being a mage is not.

What game did you play?

[Silfren]

Hazegurl wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

Leaders need conviction. If they don't have it-- its the blind leading the blind. Fiona and Adrian do have that at least. Being open-minded and moderate is good to a point of course but when you're in a difficult situation and in charge of lives the stakes are higher. You must have an opinion based solidly around a reasonable viewpoint. You can't be wishy washy when your actions are responsible for the lives hundreds of people. Its fine to be an on the fence moderate when you're not in charge. You can't be that when you're a leader. Apdaptable leaders-- good. On the fence leaders-- bad.

I agree, what happens to on the fence leaders is the samething that happened to Rhys. You end up getting railroaded by the others whose convictions are stronger. It truly sucked that when everyone is standing around waiting for his decision he gets led around by the b@lls by Fiona and Adrian. 

I don't see at all how Rhys's making the decision he did meant he was being led by Fiona or Adrian.  Just because he chose a decision you see as extreme doesn't mean he didn't arrive at it on the strength of his own ideas.  Especially given his anger toward Adrian and the way he walks away from his relationship with her at the end, I think it's clear that he made his decision because he knew that even as a moderate, he had an either/or decision to make.  It's entirely possible for a person of a moderate viewpoint to realize that an extreme decision has to be made in order to go forward.  Situations like these don't necessarily easy segregate into two extreme points with there being an ideal position dead between the two.  Personally the way I saw it, Rhys was not the extremist that either Fiona or Adrian were, but he understood that in order to go forward, the stalemate (middle of the road) position wasn't possible, but choosing not to fight was a worse decision.

[dragonflight288]

Mr.House wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

How come Lambert (and by extension Fenris) not garner the same amount of trust/empathy given that they grew up in Tevinter....yet a mage from Ferelden's circle garners a whole lot of sympathy?

Is it because we never got to experience it first hand so that people think Lambert and Fenris are simply exaggerating how bad it is in Tevinter?

Two reasons. One, it's quite possible that they are exaggerating. Two, because Anders is criticizing the Circle system that he and the game are in, but Lambert is attacking all mages who are from a completely different culture than Tevinter, which is bad for reasons that have nothing to do with magic.

Because Anders is also telling the full truth and not exaggerating right?

Having played DA2 again, Anders lies by ommission, and he doesn't really exaggerate so much as he....feels so strongly that his exaggerations are his actual beliefs. He outright tells a Hawke who romances him that he WILL break Hawke's heart, and he goes well out of his way to be as vague as possible when it comes to the Chantry bombing plot. His only real direct lie is when he says that his plans will actually separate him and Justice, and not that he's making a bomb.

Now I'm not defending his actions, but I'm commenting that a sarcastic question in response to a point is not an actual response, especially if someon, in this case me (in a joking manner if you misread the tone I intended) may take it seriously.

It's almost like saying one person's atrocities are not as bad because someone else had also committed atrocities. Or one person's actions lose the weight behind them because someone else on the opposite side of the fence did something similar.

I say they're all guilty and treat them both with equal contempt. I've only had one playthrough where I've spared Anders, and I've executed him every other time because I don't agree with him or his methods, despite being a mage supporter, and Lambert is equally guilty of his own crimes. Lambert is not Anders, so Lambert must be held accountable for Lambert's crimes, like I killed Anders for Anders' crimes.

[Plaintiff]

Mr.House wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

How come Lambert (and by extension Fenris) not garner the same amount of trust/empathy given that they grew up in Tevinter....yet a mage from Ferelden's circle garners a whole lot of sympathy?

Is it because we never got to experience it first hand so that people think Lambert and Fenris are simply exaggerating how bad it is in Tevinter?

Two reasons. One, it's quite possible that they are exaggerating. Two, because Anders is criticizing the Circle system that he and the game are in, but Lambert is attacking all mages who are from a completely different culture than Tevinter, which is bad for reasons that have nothing to do with magic.

Because Anders is also telling the full truth and not exaggerating right?

Anders manages to at least not tar every single Templar with the same brush, even though being a Templar is a willing decision and being a mage is not.

What game did you play?

The right one, apparently.

Anders will help Keran, even though it doesn't aid his cause to do so. He thinks that Thrask is a good person. And despite the fact that the Templars threaten his freedom and life every single day, he spends many years believing that they can, in fact, be reasoned with, and when he is given evidence that Meredith and Elthina rejected Alrik's Tranquil Solution, he is perfectly willing to consider the possibility that his initial judgement of their characters may have been in error.

Anders is, in fact, a perfectly rational and reasonable individual for the majority of the game. He is not a mass-murdering maniac. He arrives at the decision to do what he does after seven years of attempting peaceful alternatives, and when he does decide to blow up the Chantry, he still gives Elthina every chance to get up off her fat ass and do something about the deteriorating situation in Kirkwall.

[lil yonce]

Silfren wrote...

Could you point to specific passages in the book where it's spelled out--unambiguously so--that Rhys thinks Cole is a spirit?  I seem to remember he thought, at least at first, that Cole was a mage who'd been forgotten.

He identifies him as the Ghost of the White Spire and says from his research that ghosts don't exist. That they are at best confused spirits. He investigates to determine for certain what the ghost is-- to find out if its a spirit he can't sense or if its a clever demon. Only after he has spent time with Cole does he start to go back on that or become unsure.

[Earthborn_Shepard]

I haven't read any of the DA books so far, but I'm thinking of getting Asunder, do I have to read the other two books first or is it a standalone?

[DKJaigen]

Hazegurl wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

How come Lambert (and by extension Fenris) not garner the same amount of trust/empathy given that they grew up in Tevinter....yet a mage from Ferelden's circle garners a whole lot of sympathy?

Is it because we never got to experience it first hand so that people think Lambert and Fenris are simply exaggerating how bad it is in Tevinter?

Because some people don't want to think of mages as doing wrong.  Or they want to go the "it's not EVERY mage" route and acknowledging a place like Tevinter, which is mages at their worst, would somehow be acknowledging the opposite exterme. IMO, it doesn't. The fact remains overall, is that we are introduced to mages as being oppressed since origins. We've never had a true Templar pov (I don't count Alistair), and when a Templar is protrayed as likable, it all extends to them having an extreme Mage freedom pov. Even if they had a more balanced opinion before. Evangeline is a prime example of this. So far Cullen is the only Templar I have seen that is balanced, I'm sure there are posters who would disagree because he's not neutral, but I don't expect a Templar to be neutral anymore than I would expect a mage in the Circle to be. I hope it stays that way for the character but a part of me thinks otherwise. 

Anyway, most people who opt for the "mages should be free" pov will chose to dismiss Lambert and Fenris and claim that their accounts are not valid, nevermind  that all the evidence points to them telling the truth about that place. 

The Tevinter imperium is just one place and it shows what happens when the privileged  that have no restraints Tevinter at one point was ruled by mundanes and then again by mages. In both era's the nation was a mess. So yes people can dismiss both lambert and Fenris.

What i really liked about the book is the quest for knowledge and people finally waking up that they dont understand magic as they should be doing. Lambert made some assumptions about and it got him killed. A Fitting end for that power hungry fool.

[Beerfish]

Plaintiff wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

How come Lambert (and by extension Fenris) not garner the same amount of trust/empathy given that they grew up in Tevinter....yet a mage from Ferelden's circle garners a whole lot of sympathy?

Because experiencing trauma does not give you license to irrationally hate an entire group of people just because they happen to share an unavoidable genetic trait with the one who wronged you.

There is one hell of a lot more than 'the one who wronged you' going on as far as the dangers of mages.  That has been spelled out in the previous two games and the books.

[Sylvianus]

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

I haven't read any of the DA books so far, but I'm thinking of getting Asunder, do I have to read the other two books first or is it a standalone?

No. You just have to play DAII ( and maybe DAO ) for a better understanding of the issues raised in the book.

[Beerfish]

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

I haven't read any of the DA books so far, but I'm thinking of getting Asunder, do I have to read the other two books first or is it a standalone?

You can read it stand alone no problem.

[Ieldra]

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...
I haven't read any of the DA books so far, but I'm thinking of getting Asunder, do I have to read the other two books first or is it a standalone?

Standalone. There is almost no connection.

[Silfren]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Could you point to specific passages in the book where it's spelled out--unambiguously so--that Rhys thinks Cole is a spirit?  I seem to remember he thought, at least at first, that Cole was a mage who'd been forgotten.

He identifies him as the Ghost of the White Spire and says from his research that ghosts don't exist. That they are at best confused spirits. He investigates to determine for certain what the ghost is-- to find out if its a spirit he can't sense or if its a clever demon. Only after he has spent time with Cole does he start to go back on that or become unsure.

That's not what I remember at all.  I remember that Rhys consistently referred to Cole as a man, not a spirit.  Identifying a person as being the source of the Ghost of the White Spire doesn't necessarily mean he literally thinks that Cole is a spirit or demon.  And we do know that Cole thinks of HIMSELF as having once been a mage apprentice in the tower.   I don't recall any instances early in the book where Rhys is shown to definitively think that Cole is or always was a spirit or demon, just that he was investigating to find out just WHAT was going on, and came across this pathetic young man who called himself Cole. 

Rather than damning Rhys for being too stupid to remember his own research, I think it's much more plausible that there really is something going on with Cole that suggests knowledge of Fade being is incomplete.  Cole clearly believed HIMSELF to have been a mage at one point--we're given his own point of view, not just Rhys, so it's extremely unlikely to be true that Cole was consciously and deliberately manipulating anyone.  The fact that Rhys SHOULD be someone who could identify a spirit or demon due to his background, but does not, really should indicate that the answer Lambert provides is not the right one.

[lil yonce]

Silfren wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Could you point to specific passages in the book where it's spelled out--unambiguously so--that Rhys thinks Cole is a spirit?  I seem to remember he thought, at least at first, that Cole was a mage who'd been forgotten.

He identifies him as the Ghost of the White Spire and says from his research that ghosts don't exist. That they are at best confused spirits. He investigates to determine for certain what the ghost is-- to find out if its a spirit he can't sense or if its a clever demon. Only after he has spent time with Cole does he start to go back on that or become unsure.

That's not what I remember at all.  I remember that Rhys consistently referred to Cole as a man, not a spirit.

That is after he had spent substantial time with Cole. Before that it is mentioned Rhys surmised the White Spire Ghost was very likely either a spirit or a demon of some sort.

Identifying a person as being the source of the Ghost of the White Spire doesn't necessarily mean he literally thinks that Cole is a spirit or demon.

Leaning on his research that is what Rhys initially concludes.

And we do know that Cole thinks of HIMSELF as having once been a mage apprentice in the tower.   I don't recall any instances early in the book where Rhys is shown to definitively think that Cole is or always was a spirit or demon, just that he was investigating to find out just WHAT was going on, and came across this pathetic young man who called himself Cole.  

Before he began investigating-- meeting with Cole-- it is mentioned that Rhys believes from his research that there is no such thing as a ghost. That a ghost is one of two things. Spirit or demon. He wants to know what this ghost is. He thinks the ghost is either a spirit he can't sense or clever demon.

Rather than damning Rhys for being too stupid to remember his own research, I think it's much more plausible that there really is something going on with Cole that suggests knowledge of Fade being is incomplete.

He should be questioned for that. Cole was definitely a spirit of some kind. The only discrepancy I see lies in what people think a spirit is.

Cole clearly believed HIMSELF to have been a mage at one point--we're given his own point of view, not just Rhys, so it's extremely unlikely to be true that Cole was consciously and deliberately manipulating anyone.

He may not have been manipulating Rhys. I never said he did. But he may have been manipulating him-- that is also a possibility. I said Rhys believes Cole was a spirit and was a careless fool to investigate alone-- for allowing sympathy to cloud his judgment. He should have remembered his research. He should have let it guide him. It shouldn't fly out the window.

The fact that Rhys SHOULD be someone who could identify a spirit or demon due to his background, but does not, really should indicate that the answer Lambert provides is not the right one.

He let sympathy could his judgement. Absolutely dangerous in this situation. Had he the right detachment from Cole he could have figured it out. He should have known better.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 20 juin 2013 - 07:59 .

[Silfren]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Could you point to specific passages in the book where it's spelled out--unambiguously so--that Rhys thinks Cole is a spirit?  I seem to remember he thought, at least at first, that Cole was a mage who'd been forgotten.

He identifies him as the Ghost of the White Spire and says from his research that ghosts don't exist. That they are at best confused spirits. He investigates to determine for certain what the ghost is-- to find out if its a spirit he can't sense or if its a clever demon. Only after he has spent time with Cole does he start to go back on that or become unsure.

That's not what I remember at all.  I remember that Rhys consistently referred to Cole as a man, not a spirit.

That is after he had spent substantial time with Cole. Before that it is mentioned Rhys surmised the White Spire Ghost was very likely either a spirit or a demon of some sort.

Identifying a person as being the source of the Ghost of the White Spire doesn't necessarily mean he literally thinks that Cole is a spirit or demon.

Leaning on his research that is what Rhys initially concludes.

And we do know that Cole thinks of HIMSELF as having once been a mage apprentice in the tower.   I don't recall any instances early in the book where Rhys is shown to definitively think that Cole is or always was a spirit or demon, just that he was investigating to find out just WHAT was going on, and came across this pathetic young man who called himself Cole.  

Before he began investigating-- meeting with Cole-- it is mentioned that Rhys believes from his research that there is no such thing as a ghost. That a ghost is one of two things. Spirit or demon. He wants to know what this ghost is. He thinks the ghost is either a spirit he can't sense or clever demon.

Rather than damning Rhys for being too stupid to remember his own research, I think it's much more plausible that there really is something going on with Cole that suggests knowledge of Fade being is incomplete.

He should be questioned for that. Cole was definitely a spirit of some kind. The only discrepancy I see lies in what people think a spirit is.

Cole clearly believed HIMSELF to have been a mage at one point--we're given his own point of view, not just Rhys, so it's extremely unlikely to be true that Cole was consciously and deliberately manipulating anyone.

He may not have been manipulating Rhys. I never said he did. But he may have been manipulating him-- that is also a possibility. I said Rhys believes Cole was a spirit and was a careless fool to investigate alone-- for allowing sympathy to cloud his judgment. He should have remembered his research. He should have let it guide him. It shouldn't fly out the window.

The fact that Rhys SHOULD be someone who could identify a spirit or demon due to his background, but does not, really should indicate that the answer Lambert provides is not the right one.

He let sympathy could his judgement. Absolutely dangerous in this situation. Had he the right detachment from Cole he could have figured it out. He should have known better.

I agree with you to a point, but definitely not on the last one, because it assumes that Lambert's understanding as the correct one to be a foregone conclusion, and I think the whole point of the book is to indicate that this is absolutely NOT the case.  I also think it's telling that a templar arrived at similar conclusions as Rhys. 

I expect, given the groundwork laid by DA3, that we'll see more of Cole, or if not him specifically, more about the questions his existence raised. 

[Baelyn]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Could you point to specific passages in the book where it's spelled out--unambiguously so--that Rhys thinks Cole is a spirit?  I seem to remember he thought, at least at first, that Cole was a mage who'd been forgotten.

He identifies him as the Ghost of the White Spire and says from his research that ghosts don't exist. That they are at best confused spirits. He investigates to determine for certain what the ghost is-- to find out if its a spirit he can't sense or if its a clever demon. Only after he has spent time with Cole does he start to go back on that or become unsure.

That's not what I remember at all.  I remember that Rhys consistently referred to Cole as a man, not a spirit.

That is after he had spent substantial time with Cole. Before that it is mentioned Rhys surmised the White Spire Ghost was very likely either a spirit or a demon of some sort.

Identifying a person as being the source of the Ghost of the White Spire doesn't necessarily mean he literally thinks that Cole is a spirit or demon.

Leaning on his research that is what Rhys initially concludes.

And we do know that Cole thinks of HIMSELF as having once been a mage apprentice in the tower.   I don't recall any instances early in the book where Rhys is shown to definitively think that Cole is or always was a spirit or demon, just that he was investigating to find out just WHAT was going on, and came across this pathetic young man who called himself Cole.  

Before he began investigating-- meeting with Cole-- it is mentioned that Rhys believes from his research that there is no such thing as a ghost. That a ghost is one of two things. Spirit or demon. He wants to know what this ghost is. He thinks the ghost is either a spirit he can't sense or clever demon.

Rather than damning Rhys for being too stupid to remember his own research, I think it's much more plausible that there really is something going on with Cole that suggests knowledge of Fade being is incomplete.

He should be questioned for that. Cole was definitely a spirit of some kind. The only discrepancy I see lies in what people think a spirit is.

Cole clearly believed HIMSELF to have been a mage at one point--we're given his own point of view, not just Rhys, so it's extremely unlikely to be true that Cole was consciously and deliberately manipulating anyone.

He may not have been manipulating Rhys. I never said he did. But he may have been manipulating him-- that is also a possibility. I said Rhys believes Cole was a spirit and was a careless fool to investigate alone-- for allowing sympathy to cloud his judgment. He should have remembered his research. He should have let it guide him. It shouldn't fly out the window.

The fact that Rhys SHOULD be someone who could identify a spirit or demon due to his background, but does not, really should indicate that the answer Lambert provides is not the right one.

He let sympathy could his judgement. Absolutely dangerous in this situation. Had he the right detachment from Cole he could have figured it out. He should have known better.

I dont have the book here in front of me (at work), but I think you need to fact check some of these things you claim.

I just finished the book yesterday and this is not how I remember it being portrayed. I recall Rhys not associating Cole as anything more than a mage forgotten by the templars at first.