229 réponses à ce sujet

[Hazegurl]

iakus wrote...
Yeah it's kinda that absolutist vision they have.  Having a firsthand look at the abuses a magical society can perpetrate makes their viewpont to some degree sympathetic.  But when they take it to the extreme that "this is what all mages would do, given the chance" that they lose credibility.  And the moral high ground.

True, but I find that most people who wish to discredit Fenris will heavily gloss over the fact that Fenris does not say all mages. He acknowledges good mages and so on, his entire point is that weak people fall prey to temptation all the time and a weak mage, who has to deal with demonic influences all the time either.

a. Have far more tempting offers to rise than a weak normal person.
b. Will cause far more destruction than the average person.

This in no way discredits his opinion. As for Lambert. was he wrong about Cole? Was he wrong about the mages plans for rebellion? Was he on a kill all mages rampage? No.  Personally, if you want to say they lose the moral high ground you're free to see it as such but I don't see what moral high ground the mages have to stand on when they keep proving Fenris and Lambert right.

[lil yonce]

Baelyn wrote...

I dont have the book here in front of me (at work), but I think you need to fact check some of these things you claim.
I just finished the book yesterday and this is not how I remember it being portrayed. I recall Rhys not associating Cole as anything more than a mage forgotten by the templars at first.

That is after he begins meeting with Cole. Before, he surmises the White Spire Ghost is a spirit he can't sense or a clever demon. He drops that line of thought entirely when he starts meeting with Cole which was bad. He should have let his research guide him. He was on the right track with confused spirit and he should have worked from there-- not abandoned two decades of research and place himself and the Circle in danger because he found Cole sympathetic.

Asunder page 64-- "Everything his research had told him said ghosts didn't exist. At best they were spirits masquerading as the dead, or confused. Snip. So Rhys went down into the Pit to look for him. That's where anyone who mentioned the mysterious ghost agreed it could be found. If it was a spirit, Rhys owed it to his research to find why he couldn't sense it-- and owed it to himself to prove that he wasn't being influenced by a rather clever demon."

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 20 juin 2013 - 08:26 .

[Silfren]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Baelyn wrote...

I dont have the book here in front of me (at work), but I think you need to fact check some of these things you claim.
I just finished the book yesterday and this is not how I remember it being portrayed. I recall Rhys not associating Cole as anything more than a mage forgotten by the templars at first.

That is after he begins meeting with Cole. Before, he surmises the White Spire Ghost is a spirit he can't sense or a clever demon. He drops that line of thought entirely when he starts meeting with Cole which was bad. He should have let his research guide him. He was on the right track with confused spirit and he should have worked from there-- not abandoned two decades of research and place himself and the Circle in danger because he found Cole sympathetic.

Asunder page 64-- "Everything his research had told him said ghosts didn't exist. At best they were spirits masquerading as the dead, or confused. Snip. So Rhys went down into the Pit to look for him. That's where anyone who mentioned the mysterious ghost agreed it could be found. If it was a spirit, Rhys owed it to his research to find why he couldn't sense it-- and owed it to himself to prove that he wasn't being influenced by a rather clever demon."

Yeah, or perhaps it happens to be the case that Cole IS something more than just a demon.

[Nole]

I'll avenge Lambert's death.

[lil yonce]

Silfren wrote...

Yeah, or perhaps it happens to be the case that Cole IS something more than just a demon.

Something more? Fine. But he has to be something to begin with. The current research Rhys authored himself says spirit or demon. Work from there with the proper detachement.

[Hazegurl]

Silfren wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

Leaders need conviction. If they don't have it-- its the blind leading the blind. Fiona and Adrian do have that at least. Being open-minded and moderate is good to a point of course but when you're in a difficult situation and in charge of lives the stakes are higher. You must have an opinion based solidly around a reasonable viewpoint. You can't be wishy washy when your actions are responsible for the lives hundreds of people. Its fine to be an on the fence moderate when you're not in charge. You can't be that when you're a leader. Apdaptable leaders-- good. On the fence leaders-- bad.

I agree, what happens to on the fence leaders is the samething that happened to Rhys. You end up getting railroaded by the others whose convictions are stronger. It truly sucked that when everyone is standing around waiting for his decision he gets led around by the b@lls by Fiona and Adrian. 

I don't see at all how Rhys's making the decision he did meant he was being led by Fiona or Adrian.  Just because he chose a decision you see as extreme doesn't mean he didn't arrive at it on the strength of his own ideas.  Especially given his anger toward Adrian and the way he walks away from his relationship with her at the end, I think it's clear that he made his decision because he knew that even as a moderate, he had an either/or decision to make.  It's entirely possible for a person of a moderate viewpoint to realize that an extreme decision has to be made in order to go forward.  Situations like these don't necessarily easy segregate into two extreme points with there being an ideal position dead between the two.  Personally the way I saw it, Rhys was not the extremist that either Fiona or Adrian were, but he understood that in order to go forward, the stalemate (middle of the road) position wasn't possible, but choosing not to fight was a worse decision.

Strength of his own ideas?  What strength?  He's a moron. But you are right about him having no other choice at the end, Fiona and Adrian aggravated the situation until that fence straddler had no choice but to side with them.  so i say that he was led by the you know what.

[Silfren]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Yeah, or perhaps it happens to be the case that Cole IS something more than just a demon.

Something more? Fine. But he has to be something to begin with. The current research Rhys authored himself says spirit or demon. Work from there with the proper detachement.

It's entirely possible for Rhys's research to be inaccurate or incomplete, you know.  I maintain that Cole's very existence is intended to convey this.

[Silfren]

Hazegurl wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

Leaders need conviction. If they don't have it-- its the blind leading the blind. Fiona and Adrian do have that at least. Being open-minded and moderate is good to a point of course but when you're in a difficult situation and in charge of lives the stakes are higher. You must have an opinion based solidly around a reasonable viewpoint. You can't be wishy washy when your actions are responsible for the lives hundreds of people. Its fine to be an on the fence moderate when you're not in charge. You can't be that when you're a leader. Apdaptable leaders-- good. On the fence leaders-- bad.

I agree, what happens to on the fence leaders is the samething that happened to Rhys. You end up getting railroaded by the others whose convictions are stronger. It truly sucked that when everyone is standing around waiting for his decision he gets led around by the b@lls by Fiona and Adrian. 

I don't see at all how Rhys's making the decision he did meant he was being led by Fiona or Adrian.  Just because he chose a decision you see as extreme doesn't mean he didn't arrive at it on the strength of his own ideas.  Especially given his anger toward Adrian and the way he walks away from his relationship with her at the end, I think it's clear that he made his decision because he knew that even as a moderate, he had an either/or decision to make.  It's entirely possible for a person of a moderate viewpoint to realize that an extreme decision has to be made in order to go forward.  Situations like these don't necessarily easy segregate into two extreme points with there being an ideal position dead between the two.  Personally the way I saw it, Rhys was not the extremist that either Fiona or Adrian were, but he understood that in order to go forward, the stalemate (middle of the road) position wasn't possible, but choosing not to fight was a worse decision.

Strength of his own ideas?  What strength?  He's a moron. But you are right about him having no other choice at the end, Fiona and Adrian aggravated the situation until that fence straddler had no choice but to side with them.  so i say that he was led by the you know what.

*shrug* I don't think Rhys is a moron at all, enough so that for you and others to call him a moron I have to wonder if you read the same book I did.  But admittedly this detail is a bloody pointless debate to have, so let's not.

In my mind, someone whose being led around by their balls is someone who has no ability to think for himself and/or is easily swayed by a pretty face.  Rhys demonstrates that he is neither.  We know from the book that at one point he was as passionate a Libertarian as Adrian, if perhaps not quite so angry.  We also know that he nevertheless understands enough about the dangers of magic that he is sympathetic toward Evangeline.  Even though he seems more inclined toward mage freedom than Wynne, we see that he is also pragmatic.  He IS a moderate, but that doesn't mean he doesn't prefer mage freedom.  In none of this do I see a man so incapable of independent thought that he is easily led by extremists.

Modifié par Silfren, 20 juin 2013 - 08:54 .

[Hazegurl]

Silfren wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

Baelyn wrote...

I dont have the book here in front of me (at work), but I think you need to fact check some of these things you claim.
I just finished the book yesterday and this is not how I remember it being portrayed. I recall Rhys not associating Cole as anything more than a mage forgotten by the templars at first.

That is after he begins meeting with Cole. Before, he surmises the White Spire Ghost is a spirit he can't sense or a clever demon. He drops that line of thought entirely when he starts meeting with Cole which was bad. He should have let his research guide him. He was on the right track with confused spirit and he should have worked from there-- not abandoned two decades of research and place himself and the Circle in danger because he found Cole sympathetic.

Asunder page 64-- "Everything his research had told him said ghosts didn't exist. At best they were spirits masquerading as the dead, or confused. Snip. So Rhys went down into the Pit to look for him. That's where anyone who mentioned the mysterious ghost agreed it could be found. If it was a spirit, Rhys owed it to his research to find why he couldn't sense it-- and owed it to himself to prove that he wasn't being influenced by a rather clever demon."

Yeah, or perhaps it happens to be the case that Cole IS something more than just a demon.

Yeah, but he doesn't even bother to take the precaution that he could be one. Instead he just goes into the pit thinking that it could either be a spirit or a clever demon.  Honestly, by the way Cole speaks to Lambert at the very end, I wonder if he ever lost his memory or was he just feeding on everybody's energy until he could take action himself. The whole "I'm not helpless anymore" line makes me wonder.

[Angrywolves]

Good for you. This isn't a forum for the books and comics however. shrugs.

[Baelyn]

Angrywolves wrote...

Good for you. This isn't a forum for the books and comics however. shrugs.

Although it is not, it is very evident that the events of Asunder are of paramount importance to, at the very least, story background of Dragon Age: Inquisition, which, this is a forum for.

[frostajulie]

Silfren wrote...



*shrug* I don't think Rhys is a moron at all, enough so that for you and others to call him a moron I have to wonder if you read the same book I did.  But admittedly this detail is a bloody pointless debate to have, so let's not.

In my mind, someone whose being led around by their balls is someone who has no ability to think for himself and/or is easily swayed by a pretty face.  Rhys demonstrates that he is neither.  We know from the book that at one point he was as passionate a Libertarian as Adrian, if perhaps not quite so angry.  We also know that he nevertheless understands enough about the dangers of magic that he is sympathetic toward Evangeline.  Even though he seems more inclined toward mage freedom than Wynne, we see that he is also pragmatic.  He IS a moderate, but that doesn't mean he doesn't prefer mage freedom.  In none of this do I see a man so incapable of independent thought that he is easily led by extremists.

+1 well said and in full agreement

[lil yonce]

Silfren wrote...

It's entirely possible for Rhys's research to be inaccurate or incomplete, you know.  I maintain that Cole's very existence is intended to convey this.

And he would only know that it was inaccurate or incomplete if he used it as a basis for proper investigation. He didn't. He got too chumy and blew off serious research.

Asunder page 68-- "The idea that he [Cole] might be anything more than a victim never entered his [Rhys'] mind. Snip. He thought he'd known what this young man was capable of, but he was wrong. More than wrong; he was an idiot."

From the horse's mouth.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 21 juin 2013 - 02:24 .

[Silfren]

Angrywolves wrote...

Good for you. This isn't a forum for the books and comics however. shrugs.

You don't have to participate in the thread.  Buzz off.

[Hazegurl]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Silfren wrote...

It's entirely possible for Rhys's research to be inaccurate or incomplete, you know.  I maintain that Cole's very existence is intended to convey this.

And he would only know it was inaccurate or incomplete if he used it as a basis for proper investigation. He didn't. He got too chumy and blew off serious research.

Asunder page 68-- "The idea that he [Cole] might be anything more than a victim never entered his [Rhys] mind. Snip. He thought he'd known what this young man was capable of, but he was wrong. More than wrong; he was an idiot."

From the horse's mouth.

Truer words have never been written about him. lol!!

[Hazegurl]

Silfren wrote...
*shrug* I don't think Rhys is a moron at all, enough so that for you and others to call him a moron I have to wonder if you read the same book I did.  But admittedly this detail is a bloody pointless debate to have, so let's not.

In my mind, someone whose being led around by their balls is someone who has no ability to think for himself and/or is easily swayed by a pretty face.  Rhys demonstrates that he is neither.  We know from the book that at one point he was as passionate a Libertarian as Adrian, if perhaps not quite so angry.  We also know that he nevertheless understands enough about the dangers of magic that he is sympathetic toward Evangeline.  Even though he seems more inclined toward mage freedom than Wynne, we see that he is also pragmatic.  He IS a moderate, but that doesn't mean he doesn't prefer mage freedom.  In none of this do I see a man so incapable of independent thought that he is easily led by extremists.

I read the book that called him an idiot. But I guess it's just a matter of how we both view his actions. As for being led around. Fiona and Adrian had more conviction than him and at the end they got what they wanted and he was pretty much made to comply. He's a wet noodle of a character.  I guess my biggest issue with Rhys is that he's too passive of a character and maybe him being a moderate had a lot to do with that, but if it was Wynne saying they need to fight, I wouldn't see it as her being led around as much as Rhys. I honestly couldn't care if he was for or against the fight. I thought it was lame that everyone had to wait for this dude to hop off the fence and give a response.  By then whocares. Anyone could have stood in his place.

[MWImexico]

discosuperfly wrote...

Silfren wrote...


It's entirely possible for Rhys's research to be inaccurate or incomplete, you know.  I maintain that Cole's very existence is intended to convey this.

I tend to agree with this. At least that was the impression I was left with after finishing the book.

He could be a spirit or a demon or something different. I'm curious about him, I'd like to understand. Anyway, if we could meet him during DA:I, I would stay on my guard, after the change that happened to Loghain between "The stolen throne" and DAO, I' tend to imagine Cole going wild in the futur ... or soething like that

About Rhys, he was talking about himself, it's kind of sweet/normal actually 

[Sontemuka]

Well, honestly is the first book I read of Dragon Age because besides of understand the book I must translate it (I ignore if there are editions with other lenguage, I buy the english one xD). I know, it would be better if I were reading others Dragon Age's books, but what I have read so far, is AMAZING. It just blow my mind. F*ck others videogames and movies, I came to my house and I go immediatly for the book.

Modifié par Sontemuka, 21 juin 2013 - 01:35 .

[Plaintiff]

Beerfish wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

How come Lambert (and by extension Fenris) not garner the same amount of trust/empathy given that they grew up in Tevinter....yet a mage from Ferelden's circle garners a whole lot of sympathy?

Because experiencing trauma does not give you license to irrationally hate an entire group of people just because they happen to share an unavoidable genetic trait with the one who wronged you.

There is one hell of a lot more than 'the one who wronged you' going on as far as the dangers of mages.  That has been spelled out in the previous two games and the books.

It doesn't make the hate of Fenris or Lambert any less irrational.

Having the potential to cause harm is not the same as doing harm, and rational people judge others by their actions, not for circumstances they could not help.

[IanPolaris]

Plaintiff wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

How come Lambert (and by extension Fenris) not garner the same amount of trust/empathy given that they grew up in Tevinter....yet a mage from Ferelden's circle garners a whole lot of sympathy?

Because experiencing trauma does not give you license to irrationally hate an entire group of people just because they happen to share an unavoidable genetic trait with the one who wronged you.

There is one hell of a lot more than 'the one who wronged you' going on as far as the dangers of mages.  That has been spelled out in the previous two games and the books.

It doesn't make the hate of Fenris or Lambert any less irrational.

Having the potential to cause harm is not the same as doing harm, and rational people judge others by their actions, not for circumstances they could not help.

To give Fenris some credit, if you romance him as a mage (it can be done), he'll finally admit that fundamentally his hatred of mages is irrational, but it's still a fundamental part of him and he can't get rid of it even if he wanted to.

That's a step more than Lambert ever takes.

-Polaris

[Walsh1980]

I'm not one to read books based on games, but I loved DA and ME enough to and the DA books are pretty damn good on their own and Asunder was the best.

[Iakus]

Hazegurl wrote...

True, but I find that most people who wish to discredit Fenris will heavily gloss over the fact that Fenris does not say all mages. He acknowledges good mages and so on, his entire point is that weak people fall prey to temptation all the time and a weak mage, who has to deal with demonic influences all the time either.

a. Have far more tempting offers to rise than a weak normal person.
b. Will cause far more destruction than the average person.

This in no way discredits his opinion. As for Lambert. was he wrong about Cole? Was he wrong about the mages plans for rebellion? Was he on a kill all mages rampage? No.  Personally, if you want to say they lose the moral high ground you're free to see it as such but I don't see what moral high ground the mages have to stand on when they keep proving Fenris and Lambert right.

Fenris does (grudgingly) admit that not all mages are bad.  Particularly if you renegade him.  But at the same time he often gripes about how "magic corrupts everything it touches"  The only mage he admits is "not weak" is Bethany or mageHawke.  Fenris clearly sees mages strong enough to handle magic as the exception and not the rule.  And that clouds his judgement.

As for Lambert:  I don't know if he was wrong about Cole.  He was clearly some kind of Fade spirit.  Whether he was a demon or not is never made clear.  Heck where is the dividing line between spirit and demon, anyway?  

Lambert was not entirely wrong about the mage rebellion.  Clearly some mages were planning one.  Where he wrong was in thinking Rhys and the First Enchanters were in on the plans, and was duped into taking action, which caused Wynne to respond.   Hilarity ensues.  

Sadly, Lamber's time in Tevinter tainted his outlook on mages.  Like Loghain, his paranoia got the better of him.  Tevinter should be held up as an example of what can happen, not what will happen.

[TEWR]

WittingEight65 wrote...

I'll avenge Lambert's death.

If he's dead that is. While heavily implied, World of Thedas simply says he's missing in action. He could be still alive.

Personally, I'm a fan of Dave of Canada's notion on Lambert's fate. 

[Hazegurl]

iakus wrote...

Fenris does (grudgingly) admit that not all mages are bad.  Particularly if you renegade him.  But at the same time he often gripes about how "magic corrupts everything it touches"  The only mage he admits is "not weak" is Bethany or mageHawke.  Fenris clearly sees mages strong enough to handle magic as the exception and not the rule.  And that clouds his judgement.

As for Lambert:  I don't know if he was wrong about Cole.  He was clearly some kind of Fade spirit.  Whether he was a demon or not is never made clear.  Heck where is the dividing line between spirit and demon, anyway?  

Lambert was not entirely wrong about the mage rebellion.  Clearly some mages were planning one.  Where he wrong was in thinking Rhys and the First Enchanters were in on the plans, and was duped into taking action, which caused Wynne to respond.   Hilarity ensues.  

Sadly, Lamber's time in Tevinter tainted his outlook on mages.  Like Loghain, his paranoia got the better of him.  Tevinter should be held up as an example of what can happen, not what will happen.

I don't see it as grudgingly but that's just me. he points out more than once if confronted that it's not all mages. As for him lashing aout about magic corrupting etc. Well think of what is happening to him when he's lashing out. I haven't played in a while but these pieces of dialouge "magic corrupting everything etc" are usually after an encounter with either his  former master's pawns or his former master. I just see it as him lashing out and at that time I don't expect him to say "Well not all mages" He's just angry and venting and he's entitled to have his moment. If you romance him or talk to him later when he's calm he apologizes, he just doesn't back down completely and do some super 180 and proclaim all mages good.

Once again a matter of perspective on Lambert. He was looking for  a murderer and Rhys was framed, it was natural to go after him to solve a crime. I don't see how his actions were wrong or based on paranoia. He could have killed all the mages if he wanted, called an RoA after that mess at the College. it would have been easy to kill them int heir cells indivdually.  But he didn't. He tried to reason with Rhys more than once about Cole but Rhys turned off his brain and refused to listen. Even if Cole was a fade spirit or something else, he can't be allow to just roam around the Circle doing as he pleases in an environment that is already ripe full of mages plotting to overthrow the Templars, and he was dealing with a subordinate who was having puppy love feelings for a mage and turning on her boss, and not doing her job. I just don't see how paranoia plays a role in Lambert's actions. But that's just my opinion.  

Modifié par Hazegurl, 21 juin 2013 - 06:10 .