95 réponses à ce sujet

[Enigmatick]

Plaintiff wrote...

Enigmatick wrote...
I thought that Wade and Herren were brilliant, they aren't stereotypical at all. Their dynamic comes off as two friends running a business: Ones a  picky 'artist" and stern businessman trying to make some decent money. They could be hold their own 90s sitcom actually.

Whether or not they're together is irrelevent. Whether or not they are actually gay is also irrelevent, although Gaider later confirmed that both of those things are in fact the case.

The fact is that they fit every single stereotype of the effete, catty gay man, and if you don't notice that, it's probably because you haven't been bombarded with stereotypes about your sexuality for your entire life.

I don't see that for Wade at all he just a perfectionist that's proud of his work, I think your basing a lot of what you're saying on his voice. Also how does Herren fit that sterotype at all? He wasn't the least bit catty.

[Cheylus]

You want a "mature" game, but you don't want it to explore adult relationships in any way.

It sounds to me like Call of Duty is exactly what you're after.

So adult relationships = "romance" and sexuality?

I don't want to romance everyone and everything.
Maturity is not all about sexuality and/or violence. Maturity is about dealing with complexity.

I would gladly play a game where homosexuality (or heterosexuality) is seen as an "issue" or a "sin". THIS would be mature.
In Thedas, there is no issue about sexuality. People don't look at transvestites as if they are monsters, you can be homosexual or heterosexual without being purchased or killed by some organisation.

Some romances were good in DA:O and DA2 because it had a meaning. The romance with Morrigan had a meaning, the romance with Alistair had a meaning, to a certain extent, the romance with Anders had a meaning. 

Yet, instead of asking for MEANINGFUL romances, some people are asking for the ability to romance anyone.

If there is "sexuality" in a game, I actually want it to have a meaning into the lore or the general plot.

That's Call of Duty to you?

Modifié par Cheylus, 19 juin 2013 - 07:18 .

[Enigmatick]

Cheylus wrote...

You want a "mature" game, but you don't want it to explore adult relationships in any way.

It sounds to me like Call of Duty is exactly what you're after.

So adult relationships = "romance" and sexuality?

I don't want to romance everyone and everything.
Maturity is not all about sexuality and/or violence. Maturity is about dealing with complexity.

I would gladly play a game where homosexuality (or heterosexuality) is seen as an "issue" or a "sin". THIS would be mature.
In Thedas, there is no issue about sexuality. People don't look at transvestites as if they are monsters, you can be homosexual or heterosexual without being purchased or killed by some organisation.
If there is "sexuality" in a game, I actually want it to have a meaning into the lore or the general plot.

That's Call of Duty to you?

B-But muh pandering, muh equality, muh fantasy.

[MerinTB]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
I do care about romances and my character's sexuality if DA:I didn't let me create an explicitly homosexual character, that would strongly impact my decision to purchase it.

Why do you people care about romances so much? They are usually the worst written parts of any Bioware game

Why do you care about "insert your personal list of desired game content"?

Because that is what they care about?  Because people who play games are not homogenous?  Different tastes and interest?

Some people read romance novels.  Some read science fiction.  Some read true crime.  Others read history books.  Still others read biographies.  Some like books that are mostly pictures, like graphic novels.  many enjoy a MIX of those different types of books.

People and what they want from games is similarly diverse.  Because someone wants something that doesn't interest you, or actually disinterests you, doesn't make it ODD or WRONG or WEIRD.  It just means they have different values and tastes than you.

Why do they care about it in rpgs?  What better games, outside of Japanese visual novels, have historically allowed for character control and development?

Why do they care about it in a BioWare game?  Because BioWare is something of the go-to company for romance options in a game.  Sorry you don't like that part of BioWare games.

Sorry you always find them usually badly done.  Not everyone agrees with you.  For some romances are the best part of the game.  For me actiony combat is usually always poorly done and pulls me out of a game - but I'm not going around asking people WHY they like actiony combat.

[sandalisthemaker]

Cheylus wrote...

You want a "mature" game, but you don't want it to explore adult relationships in any way.

It sounds to me like Call of Duty is exactly what you're after.

So adult relationships = "romance" and sexuality?

I don't want to romance everyone and everything.
Maturity is not all about sexuality and/or violence. Maturity is about dealing with complexity.

I would gladly play a game where homosexuality (or heterosexuality) is seen as an "issue" or a "sin". THIS would be mature.
In Thedas, there is no issue about sexuality. People don't look at transvestites as if they are monsters, you can be homosexual or heterosexual without being purchased or killed by some organisation.

Some romances were good in DA:O and DA2 because it had a meaning. The romance with Morrigan had a meaning, the romance with Alistair had a meaning, to a certain extent, the romance with Anders had a meaning. 

Yet, instead of asking for MEANINGFUL romances, some people are asking for the ability to romance anyone.

If there is "sexuality" in a game, I actually want it to have a meaning into the lore or the general plot.

That's Call of Duty to you?

They aren't monsters. That's why no one in Thedas views them that way.
Homosexuals *are* killed in some cultures *in real life.* 
Including this content in a game would be beyond tasteless and callous.
No.

Modifié par sandalisthemaker, 19 juin 2013 - 07:24 .

[Wozearly]

Cheylus wrote...

I care about gameplay, combat, maturity, storyline and lore. 

I want a good game! (goddamnit)

Join me.

...all wonderful concepts, which the community has repeatedly shown it can barely agree on, because there are so many different, competing and equally valid views. Although as storyline and lore are very often crucially about taking care of little details, I would have thought you'd at least empathise with the perfectionists around story plotholes, if nothing else.

As for me, I could take or leave most of the things you don't care about. But, unlike you, I actually *like* it that people are that passionate about elements of the game, even those which I'm not passionate about.

I'd be a snarky grumkin if I thought that was causing idiotic decision-making at Bioware, such as returning characters in ways and for reasons that make no sense, or spending thousands of man-hours retexturing Cassandra's jaw line (although, Maker above, please PLEASE no more scary witch-hands from DA2...whatever it takes).

But if you really think that Bioware are crazy enough to obsess over trying to meet everything fans are passionate about then you've clearly not taken the time to read any of the developer posts.

And if you don't believe that Bioware are crazy enough to obsess over trying to meet everything that fans are passionate about, then why post this thread at all?

[Beerfish]

"I don't care if Morrigan's skin is not PANTONE 0109-7C in this game."

This one destroyed your cred!

[Tarek]

Cheylus wrote...

then.

lol

[Enigmatick]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Cheylus wrote...

You want a "mature" game, but you don't want it to explore adult relationships in any way.

It sounds to me like Call of Duty is exactly what you're after.

So adult relationships = "romance" and sexuality?

I don't want to romance everyone and everything.
Maturity is not all about sexuality and/or violence. Maturity is about dealing with complexity.

I would gladly play a game where homosexuality (or heterosexuality) is seen as an "issue" or a "sin". THIS would be mature.
In Thedas, there is no issue about sexuality. People don't look at transvestites as if they are monsters, you can be homosexual or heterosexual without being purchased or killed by some organisation.

Some romances were good in DA:O and DA2 because it had a meaning. The romance with Morrigan had a meaning, the romance with Alistair had a meaning, to a certain extent, the romance with Anders had a meaning. 

Yet, instead of asking for MEANINGFUL romances, some people are asking for the ability to romance anyone.

If there is "sexuality" in a game, I actually want it to have a meaning into the lore or the general plot.

That's Call of Duty to you?

They aren't monsters. That's why no one in Thedas views them that way.
Homosexuals are *killed* in some cultures in real life. 
Including this content in a game would be beyond tasteless and callous.
No.

So we can be in a world where people be intolerant of  another because their ears are slightly sharper than others, but not because of who they sleep with? You can't handle playing a game where can roleplay a character that shares your traits but some people will dislike for having those traits? Is a game that's pure wish fulfillment really that mature?

Modifié par Enigmatick, 19 juin 2013 - 07:30 .

[Anfauglith5]

I agree with Cheylus...

Actually  I would prefer a more nihilistic narration/story in DAI

Tell a story and allow the player to choose where is the line between Good and Evil.

[Cheylus]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Cheylus wrote...

In Thedas, there is no issue about sexuality. People don't look at transvestites as if they are monsters, you can be homosexual or heterosexual without being purchased or killed by some organisation.

They aren't monsters. That's why no one in Thedas views them that way.
Homosexuals *are* killed in some cultures *in real life.* 
Including this content in a game would be beyond tasteless and callous.
No.

You didn't understand and I really think you did it on purpose.
All I was saying is sexuality is non-problematic in Thedas. As such, it's as important as culinary tastes. 

Sexuality is important when a civilisation (like ours) have a problem with it.
In Thedas, it doesn't have any importance. It has no depth. It doesn't make you think.

I want the issues seen in real life to be thought in a game.

I don't want "romances" to be gimmicky. I don't want it to bring fanservice. As I said early, I want it to have a meaning.

Modifié par Cheylus, 19 juin 2013 - 07:32 .

[Huyna]

Cheylus wrote...


I don't care about our characters' sexuality.

Alas, Paladins of Tolerance do.

[sandalisthemaker]

Enigmatick wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Cheylus wrote...

You want a "mature" game, but you don't want it to explore adult relationships in any way.

It sounds to me like Call of Duty is exactly what you're after.

So adult relationships = "romance" and sexuality?

I don't want to romance everyone and everything.
Maturity is not all about sexuality and/or violence. Maturity is about dealing with complexity.

I would gladly play a game where homosexuality (or heterosexuality) is seen as an "issue" or a "sin". THIS would be mature.
In Thedas, there is no issue about sexuality. People don't look at transvestites as if they are monsters, you can be homosexual or heterosexual without being purchased or killed by some organisation.

Some romances were good in DA:O and DA2 because it had a meaning. The romance with Morrigan had a meaning, the romance with Alistair had a meaning, to a certain extent, the romance with Anders had a meaning. 

Yet, instead of asking for MEANINGFUL romances, some people are asking for the ability to romance anyone.

If there is "sexuality" in a game, I actually want it to have a meaning into the lore or the general plot.

That's Call of Duty to you?

They aren't monsters. That's why no one in Thedas views them that way.
Homosexuals are *killed* in some cultures in real life. 
Including this content in a game would be beyond tasteless and callous.
No.

So we can be in a world where people be intolerant of  another because their ears are slightly sharper than others, but not because of who they sleep with? You can't handle playing a game where can roleplay a character that shares your traits but some people will dislike for having those traits? Is a game that's pure wish fulfillment really that mature?

Why is it so difficult for you to understand that people who are members of an oppressed group in real life may want to enjoy a game where they don't have to be subjected to that same type of oppression?

[Nole]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Enigmatick wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Cheylus wrote...

You want a "mature" game, but you don't want it to explore adult relationships in any way.

It sounds to me like Call of Duty is exactly what you're after.

So adult relationships = "romance" and sexuality?

I don't want to romance everyone and everything.
Maturity is not all about sexuality and/or violence. Maturity is about dealing with complexity.

I would gladly play a game where homosexuality (or heterosexuality) is seen as an "issue" or a "sin". THIS would be mature.
In Thedas, there is no issue about sexuality. People don't look at transvestites as if they are monsters, you can be homosexual or heterosexual without being purchased or killed by some organisation.

Some romances were good in DA:O and DA2 because it had a meaning. The romance with Morrigan had a meaning, the romance with Alistair had a meaning, to a certain extent, the romance with Anders had a meaning. 

Yet, instead of asking for MEANINGFUL romances, some people are asking for the ability to romance anyone.

If there is "sexuality" in a game, I actually want it to have a meaning into the lore or the general plot.

That's Call of Duty to you?

They aren't monsters. That's why no one in Thedas views them that way.
Homosexuals are *killed* in some cultures in real life. 
Including this content in a game would be beyond tasteless and callous.
No.

So we can be in a world where people be intolerant of  another because their ears are slightly sharper than others, but not because of who they sleep with? You can't handle playing a game where can roleplay a character that shares your traits but some people will dislike for having those traits? Is a game that's pure wish fulfillment really that mature?

Why is it so difficult for you to understand that people who are members of an oppressed group in real life may want to enjoy a game where they don't have to be subjected to that same type of oppression?

In Dragon Age I can be blondie and beautiful Q_Q.

[Plaintiff]

Cheylus wrote...
So adult relationships = "romance" and sexuality?

No, it's all bro-fisting and high-fives.

I don't want to romance everyone and everything.

Strawman

Maturity is not all about sexuality and/or violence. Maturity is about dealing with complexity.

"Complexity" is a meaningless buzzword, right up there with "dark" and "gritty".

I would gladly play a game where homosexuality (or heterosexuality) is seen as an "issue" or a "sin". THIS would be mature.

The fact that you automatically equate "maturity" to "explicit depictions of bigotry" is extremely problematic.

In Thedas, there is no issue about sexuality.

Why should there be? Thedas already has a million different flavours of its own bigotry. Mages, elves, dwarves, Ferelden refugees. Isn't that enough "maturity" for you?

People don't look at transvestites as if they are monsters, you can be homosexual or heterosexual without being purchased or killed by some organisation.

So what? Ancient Greece regarded homosexuality as a non-issue, so I guess that means it was a pretty immature society.

If there is "sexuality" in a game, I actually want it to have a meaning into the lore or the general plot.

And by "meaning" you mean you want to see sexual minorities being beaten in the streets.

You are operating under the incredibly flawed assumption that every society just automatically starts out hating gays for no reason. There are plenty of cultures in our own history that can disprove that.

There is always sexuality in every game, you just don't notice it because games don't need to go out of their way to tell you when a character is straight, because every single character in every work of fiction that was ever written is automtically assumed to be straight unless explicitly stated otherwise.

That's Call of Duty to you?

No, but the more you talk about sexuality, the more I am convinced that Call of Duty is for you.

[John Epler]

Crazy thought.

People engage with various media for different reasons. None are more or less valid than others.

And we -will- get off the tangent where people are actually arguing that it would somehow be a net positive to include discrimination based on sexuality in the game. I wish I could say I was shocked that people are arguing that point, but I'm really not. We -are- going to drop it, though.

[Plaintiff]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Bioware is not the company I would want to explore any adult relationship.

And who is?

Please god, say CDProjeckt. I need the laugh.

[Maclimes]

John Epler wrote...

We -are- going to drop it, though.

Or there -will- be blood! (or at least some temp bans and a lock)

[sandalisthemaker]

John Epler wrote...

Crazy thought.

People engage with various media for different reasons. None are more or less valid than others.

And we -will- get off the tangent where people are actually arguing that it would somehow be a net positive to include discrimination based on sexuality in the game. I wish I could say I was shocked that people are arguing that point, but I'm really not. We -are- going to drop it, though.

Thank you.

[KingRoxas]

Morocco Mole wrote...

I would be overjoyed with a company exploring sexuality in a mature manner. But Bioware isn't that company. Bioware's modus operandi is making character's bi (Kaidan, every DA 2 character) to appease instead of explore.

[Huyna]

Plaintiff wrote...

And who is?

Please god, say CDProjeckt. I need the laugh.

How CDProjeckt will handle this subject will be trully seen in Witcher 3, when Geralt, if prognosis is correct, will once again encounter  love-of-his-life from book series. 
That would be a challenge for the writers.

Modifié par Huyna, 19 juin 2013 - 07:44 .

[Enigmatick]

Plaintiff wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

Bioware is not the company I would want to explore any adult relationship.

And who is?

Please god, say CDProjeckt. I need the laugh.

 Something tells me you haven't actually played a CDPR game and you've just heard what you wanted to hear about them in a Politically Correct echochamber.