95 réponses à ce sujet

[sandalisthemaker]

Enigmatick wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

Bioware is not the company I would want to explore any adult relationship.

And who is?

Please god, say CDProjeckt. I need the laugh.

 Something tells me you haven't actually played a CDPR game and you've just heard what you wanted to hear about them in a Politically Correct echochamber.

Gotta catchem' all sex cards.
Nuff said.

[Silfren]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Who's "we"? You got a mouse in your pocket

I do care about romances and my character's sexuality if DA:I didn't let me create an explicitly homosexual character, that would strongly impact my decision to purchase it.

Why do you people care about romances so much? They are usually the worst written parts of any Bioware game

According to whom?  You?  You think that your opinion is objective and therefore definitive?  I'm not baiting you; that's a serious question.  Would you mind actually elaborating on why you think the romances are the worst part of Bioware's writing?

Personally, I care about the romances because they were part of the first Bioware game I played, and I considered them to be well-written and compelling.  If they had never existed, I wouldn't care about them so much, but since Bioware already has a history of providing them as part of the game--a part which is completely optional, it should be pointed out--I would be quite disappointed to see them gone.  They add an extra dimension to already complex and relatable characters.

[Plaintiff]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Being gay myself I would be overjoyed with a company exploring sexuality in a mature manner. But Bioware isn't that company. Bioware's modus operandi is making character's bi (Kaidan, every DA 2 character) to appease instead of explore.

Putting in a gay character just to talk about gay issues is, to my mind, exactly as bad as ignoring them completely. Inevitably, being "gay" is expected to make up for lacking any other personality traits whatsoever.

The best and most mature way to deal with sexuality is to stop treating it like a big deal. Kaidan having some big, emotional freak out about coming out of the closet is completely unnecessary, not to mention totally ridiculous in a setting where interspecies relationships are commonplace.

[SphereofSilence]

Well...though I care about a lot of things the author said 'we' don't care, I thought he had a point in that if you cut out all the story/characters/background lore and whatnot, the gameplay at its core is not really that good to be honest. DAO? Not good enough. DA2? Horrible. DA:Legacy and DA:MOTA? Have potential, I hope they continue to build and improve along that. I still say generally DA games have poor gameplay.

[lady_v23]

People are silly.

Why does the player sexuality always comes up? Do you people have a ****** complex? Or are you secretly homophobic?

[devSin]

John Epler wrote...

We -are- going to drop it, though.

Still as innocent as a newborn babe, I see.

Poor John. One day he'll learn.

Or drown in the tears. :-)

Modifié par devSin, 19 juin 2013 - 07:58 .

[Plaintiff]

simfamSP wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Who's "we"? You got a mouse in your pocket

I do care about romances and my character's sexuality if DA:I didn't let me create an explicitly homosexual character, that would strongly impact my decision to purchase it.

How many RPGs do you play then? Unless this is exclusive to BioWare where homosexuality isn't really an issue.

Plenty, I also play other genres.

I am increasingly frustrated with the lack of homosexual characters in gaming, but I resigned myself years ago to taking what little I can get, and literally the only reason I picked up Dragon Age at all in the first place was because I learned that it would let me do exactly that. It doesn't offer anything else that I haven't already seen elsewhere. Homogenous medieval fantasy clones don't exactly tickle my pickle.

Now that I have played the games, I like them very much, but if they remove homosexuality, then I will stop playing them, and the same goes for any other game series I enjoy if it was to randomly add that option and then take it away again. I'm not going to reward Bioware for taking a step backwards, and in fact I deliberately avoided Mass Effect because it didn't allow me to make a gay male Shepard.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 19 juin 2013 - 07:59 .

[Cheylus]

@Plaintiff
I'm not actually aiming at romances and sexuality. My main concern is fanservice.

We do not agree on adult relationships.
Complexity is not a buzzword.
I simply don't care about sexuality in a video game where sexuality has no meaning.

The fact that you automatically equate "maturity" to "explicit depictions of bigotry" is extremely problematic.

You're only reading and understanding what you want to read and understand.
Maturity is not complexity. I've said maturity is the way to deal with complexity, otherness, differences, etc.

And by "meaning" you mean you want to see sexual minorities being beaten in the streets.

...

You are operating under the incredibly flawed assumption that every society just automatically starts out hating gays for no reason. There are plenty of cultures in our own history that can disprove that.

What are you saying?
How in hell (yes, hell) do you think I'm not homosexual myself?
In sexuality, there is not only "homosexuality" and "heterosexuality". Birth, fertility, disease, pleasure, sadism, love, masochism, are other parts of sexuality, among others.

@Plaintiff, again.
If, by any "chance", this topic close, I'm not against going on with private messages.
I really don't think you took time to read what I am saying. I have the feeling you only want to think I'm "homophobic".

@John Epler

And we -will- get off the tangent where people are actually arguing that it would somehow be a net positive to include discrimination based on sexuality in the game. I wish I could say I was shocked that people are arguing that point, but I'm really not. We -are- going to drop it, though.

There is plenty of games with discrimination (for example, racial discrimination). If it's written to make you think about it,... well done. Games about racism doesn't (always) make racist games.
Are you actually implying I want to include "discrimination" in a game because I want to discriminate?

Modifié par Cheylus, 19 juin 2013 - 08:06 .

[sandalisthemaker]

Cheylus wrote...



There is plenty of games with discrimination (for example, racial discrimination). If it's written to make you think about it,... well done.
Are you actually implying I want to include "discrimination" in a game because I want to discriminate?

John said to drop it, so just drop it.

[CronoDragoon]

Why do you people care about romances so much? They are usually the worst written parts of any Bioware game

I believe the opposite, but perhaps that depends on the character. I thought Isabella's romance really added to her character and helped me understand her pyschological makeup.

[Meatbaggins]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Being gay myself I would be overjoyed with a company exploring sexuality in a mature manner. But Bioware isn't that company. Bioware's modus operandi is making character's bi (Kaidan, every DA 2 character) to appease instead of explore.

How does making  a character bisexual in any way prevent their sexuality from being maturely explored? Even if they were made that bi to "appease"(I'm not entirely sure what you meant by that tbh), so what? Some people just so happen to be bi, without any special reason.

Modifié par Meatbaggins, 19 juin 2013 - 08:08 .

[Enigmatick]

Plaintiff wrote...

simfamSP wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Who's "we"? You got a mouse in your pocket

I do care about romances and my character's sexuality if DA:I didn't let me create an explicitly homosexual character, that would strongly impact my decision to purchase it.

How many RPGs do you play then? Unless this is exclusive to BioWare where homosexuality isn't really an issue.

Plenty, I also play other genres.

I am increasingly frustrated with the lack of homosexual characters in gaming,

I still think that it's silly to get worked up about a lack of a minority group in media, I've seen plenty of games that take place in America and don't have a single black person in the game. Being black I understand that most writer/artists don't think of another ethinicty when making a character, why should I get mad about that?

Modifié par Enigmatick, 19 juin 2013 - 08:07 .

[Plaintiff]

Cheylus wrote...
How in hell (yes, hell) do you think I'm not homosexual myself?

I suppose you could be, but it doesn't seem terribly likely. I like to think that a homosexual wouldn't say such silly things about homosexual represntation in gaming.

I like to think that a homosexual would understand that some homosexuals value the opportunity to express and explore their sexuality in a setting where they won't get beaten up for it, that they deal with it often enough in real life and don't need it in their games.

I like to think that a homosexual would understand that after years of being excluded and outright villainized by media, the choice to play a homosexual character might, for some, be valuable purely on its own merit, just like the choice to choose your character's hair or eye colour is valuable purely on its own merit.

[Cheylus]

Where did I say something about homosexual represensation in gaming in particular >_<?

From beginning to start, you're implying a lot in our conversation.

You don't want to think I'm homosexual because of... reasons.
You want to think I'm homophobic and I want to beat homosexual.

I leave you with your certainties.

Modifié par Cheylus, 19 juin 2013 - 08:13 .

[sandalisthemaker]

Enigmatick wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

simfamSP wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Who's "we"? You got a mouse in your pocket

I do care about romances and my character's sexuality if DA:I didn't let me create an explicitly homosexual character, that would strongly impact my decision to purchase it.

How many RPGs do you play then? Unless this is exclusive to BioWare where homosexuality isn't really an issue.

Plenty, I also play other genres.

I am increasingly frustrated with the lack of homosexual characters in gaming,

I still think that it's silly to get worked up about a lack of a minority group in media, I've seen plenty of games that take place in America and don't have a single black person in the game. Being black I understand that most writer/artists don't think of another ethinicty when making a character, why should I get mad about that?

Just because it's not important to you doesn't mean that it isn't to others and that it doesn't matter.
The problem with this thread and many people posting here is that anything that is included that isn't important to them is automatically "pandering" and unnessesary. 

[Maclimes]

Sometimes the user names switch up a bit, but it's interesting to see how often this exact same argument occurs, with the exact same reasoning on both sides.

META EDIT: I bet someone else always make THIS same comment too. Whoa. I'm just a cog in the ever-turning cycle.

Modifié par Maclimes, 19 juin 2013 - 08:22 .

[Silfren]

Cheylus wrote...

@Plaintiff
I'm not actually aiming at romances and sexuality. My main concern is fanservice.

We do not agree on adult relationships.
Complexity is not a buzzword.
I simply don't care about sexuality in a video game where sexuality has no meaning.

"The fact that you automatically equate "maturity" to "explicit depictions of bigotry" is extremely problematic."
You're only reading and understanding what you want to read and understand.
Maturity is not complexity. I've said maturity is the way to deal with complexity.

Not quite.  In fairness, when I read your comment, I had exactly the same reaction.  Your wording implied strongly that you don't think certain types of sexuality are being realistically portrayed if there is no presence of bigotry against them. 

I understood your intended meaning more clearly AFTER your later statements, and I can see that what you were trying to say is that you want to see stories tackle existing real world issues.  But that's NOT what you said to begin with, so rather than faulting other people for misunderstanding, you need to admit that you were unclear.

Going forward, while I can agree that it's nice to see real world issues tackled in a given story, it shouldn't necessarily follow that ALL stories should follow the same format in order to be seen as mature.  You're apparently disallowing for the option that any stories should ever be written that portray homosexuality as a complete nonissue because the fictional society in question does not consider any expressions of sexuality to be deviant.  This does not mean that the given story fails at being mature, it means that that particular story's POINT is to show a world where people have more important things to spend their time worrying about. 

So my question for you is, why do you think there is something wrong about those stories?  Why should all stories be REQUIRED to tackle real world issues by way of featuring real world bigotries before they can qualify as mature? 

I've read several stories recently that feature sexuality in various forms widely considered deviant to mainstream real world prejudices, namely both homosexuality and polyamory, as complete non-issues within the culture.  Would you consider them to be some kind of pandering fanservice, just because they would have an inherent appeal to people in those particular subcultures?

Edited for the sake of clarity.

Modifié par Silfren, 19 juin 2013 - 08:26 .

[Azaron Nightblade]

Cheylus wrote...

In Thedas, there is no issue about sexuality. People don't look at transvestites as if they are monsters, you can be homosexual or heterosexual without being purchased or killed by some organisation.

Now that's just rude, I'm sure there are plenty of people in Tevinter that would buy them - just look at Serendipity's popularity in DA2! 
Also since there was a comparisson made to RL somewhere down the line, in some cultures it was actually pretty much accepted - look up ancient Greece sometime.

[Plaintiff]

Enigmatick wrote...
I still think that it's silly to get worked up about a lack of a minority group in media, I've seen plenty of games that take place in America and don't have a single black person in the game. Being black I understand that most writer/artists don't think of another ethinicty when making a character, why should I get mad about that?

You don't have to do anything, if you're fine with your minority being marginalized, then that's your business. But I'm not fine with it.

All media is political, regardless of actual intent. Every creative product produced says something about the people who made it, and the society it was created in. And the things that you don't include are just as important as the things you do include.

Personally, I would be (and am) concerned by what you describe because it implies a wider, systemic issue of exclusion and discrimination in society at large. But if you're not concerned, well, that's entirely your affair.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 19 juin 2013 - 08:21 .

[Plaintiff]

Cheylus wrote...

Where did I say something about homosexual represensation in gaming in particular >_<?

Well, it was in your list of things you don't care about, I said that I do care about it, and then you replied to me.

I was already talking about homosexuality, so anything you said in reply to me was going to fall under the context of that discussion.

You don't want to think I'm homosexual because of... reasons.

I promise, I am completely ambivalent to your sexuality.

You want to think I'm homophobic and I want to beat homosexual.

I don't want to think that of anyone.

[Cheylus]

So my question for you is, why do you think there is something wrong about those stories? Why should all stories be REQUIRED to tackle real world issues by way of featuring real world bigotries before they can qualify as mature?

They don't have to be real world issues.

When I think about mage/templars war, I'm also thinking of what it implies in a real world obsessed by security. Magic is not a real world issue, yet it makes me think about a lot of things for our own world.

When I'm playing Deus Ex, I'm not only thinking about robotic augmentations: I think about medical facilities only made for an elite.

When I'm playing an elf or a mage, I ask myself "what does it mean to be an outcast?"

If you don't want the "real world" issue of hetero/homosexuality in a game (that could have been sexual slavery instead, or pedophilia, age difference in a relationship, etc.), try to imagine a world where sexuality doesn't bring pleasure, or has a fair chance to kill you on the spot, etc.
I want a game where I can think:
- What does it mean to be in a relationship with someone?
- What does it mean to have sexual relationships?

There is an abondance of topics about sexuality on the BSN, but I feel like there is not much to say about it in Dragon Age, some rare examples aside.

Some people are laughing at sexuality in The Witcher series (and I agree about sex cards, it's pure bad taste). But this is a world where there is diseases and this is a world without birth control, with only monogamy. Why is Geralt a "womanizer"? Because he is immune to disease and he's infertile.
In the books, Philippa "switches" her sexuality from heterosexuality to homosexuality because she felt women has more power than men. She uses her "lesbomancy" (yes, that's how it's called in a game) to mystify an entire town: everyone is talking about her whipping another woman, but nobody wants to see she manipulates everyone on purpose politically. Sex as a meaning of political distraction, that is complex!

Modifié par Cheylus, 19 juin 2013 - 08:34 .

[Cheylus]

Azaron Nightblade wrote...

Cheylus wrote...

In Thedas, there is no issue about sexuality. People don't look at transvestites as if they are monsters, you can be homosexual or heterosexual without being purchased or killed by some organisation.

Now that's just rude, I'm sure there are plenty of people in Tevinter that would buy them - just look at Serendipity's popularity in DA2! 
Also since there was a comparisson made to RL somewhere down the line, in some cultures it was actually pretty much accepted - look up ancient Greece sometime.

Sorry, english is not my native langage.
Language would have been another "mature" issue, you see...