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#76
Fredward

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Cheylus wrote...

If you don't want the "real world" issue of hetero/homosexuality in a game (that could have been sexual slavery instead, or pedophilia, etc.), try to imagine a world where sexuality doesn't bring pleasure, or has a fair chance to kill you on the spot, etc.
There is an abondance of topics about sexuality on the BSN, but I feel like there is not much to say about it in Dragon Age, some rare examples aside.


Sexuality as sensationalism then? Eh. Doesn't really seem mature. Why can't sex just be sex?

#77
AlanC9

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Morocco Mole wrote...

Being gay myself I would be overjoyed with a company exploring sexuality in a mature manner. But Bioware isn't that company. Bioware's modus operandi is making character's bi (Kaidan, every DA 2 character) to appease instead of explore.


You didn't like Cortez and Traynor?

#78
Guest_Puddi III_*

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Looks like the forum is having another convulsion of romance/anti-romance fever.

#79
AstraDrakkar

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Wanders into thread......looks around......and runs back out before thread is closed.

#80
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AlanC9 wrote...

You didn't like Cortez and Traynor?


I actually liked Cortez. Traynor left a bad taste in my mouth since it felt like pandering to dudes that like lesbians. Though that was probably just the terrible shower scene forever engraved in my mind.

Modifié par Morocco Mole, 19 juin 2013 - 08:32 .


#81
Silfren

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Cheylus wrote...

So my question for you is, why do you think there is something wrong about those stories? Why should all stories be REQUIRED to tackle real world issues by way of featuring real world bigotries before they can qualify as mature?


They don't have to be real world issues.

When I think about mage/templars war, I'm also thinking of what it implies in a real world obsessed by security. Magic is not a real world issue, yet it makes me think about a lot of things for our own world.

When I'm playing Deus Ex, I'm not only thinking about robotic augmentations: I think about medical facilities only made for an elite.

When I'm playing an elf or a mage, I ask myself "what does it mean to be an outcast?"

If you don't want the "real world" issue of hetero/homosexuality in a game (that could have been sexual slavery instead, or pedophilia, etc.), try to imagine a world where sexuality doesn't bring pleasure, or has a fair chance to kill you on the spot, etc.
I want a game where I can think:
- What does it mean to be in a relationship with someone?
- What does it mean to have sexual relationships?

There is an abondance of topics about sexuality on the BSN, but I feel like there is not much to say about it in Dragon Age, some rare examples aside.


Perhaps, but as I understood what you originally wrote, you were saying that you don't like the fact that Dragon Age does not treat homosexuality as a bad thing, the way it is often derided as a bad thing in the real world, and that because of this you didn't think the issue was being handled maturely.   You seem to be saying that because certain expressions of sexuality are treated with contempt in reality, a game should tackle that issue to make people think by writing stories about said bigotry. 

What people are trying to say to you is that many people just want to play games where they don't have to be confronted with the same bullsh*t they experience in life already. 

#82
AlanC9

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Morocco Mole wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

You didn't like Cortez and Traynor?


I actually liked Cortez. Traynor left a bad taste in my mouth since it felt like pandering to dudes that like lesbians.


So they should have avoided pandering by.... making her stone butch or something?

#83
sandalisthemaker

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Morocco Mole wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

You didn't like Cortez and Traynor?


I actually liked Cortez. Traynor left a bad taste in my mouth since it felt like pandering to dudes that like lesbians.


This is most likely the reason for F/F romance being included but not M/M in the original Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2.
But people only tend to cry "pandering" when it is done in favor of sexual minorities it seems.

Modifié par sandalisthemaker, 19 juin 2013 - 08:37 .


#84
Fredward

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Morocco Mole wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

You didn't like Cortez and Traynor?


I actually liked Cortez. Traynor left a bad taste in my mouth since it felt like pandering to dudes that like lesbians.


She... is? I found Cortez to be painfully dull. LIke words can't describe kind of dull. Traynor was at least funny.

#85
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AlanC9 wrote...

So they should have avoided pandering by.... making her stone butch or something?


No (though it would be hilarious seeing BSN's reaction) they should just lay off the creepy romance scenes and just fade to black after a kiss or something. With a little dialog afterwards.

Modifié par Morocco Mole, 19 juin 2013 - 08:38 .


#86
Guest_Puddi III_*

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And since Thedas is written not to have real world hangups about sexuality, there's nothing particularly unique to explore about gay/etc relationships that would distinguish it from hetero ones. There's no need to "justify" its inclusion with some kind of deep analysis of what it means to be in a gay relationship specifically to avoid it being "fanservice."

Modifié par Filament, 19 juin 2013 - 08:36 .


#87
Silfren

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AstraDrakkar wrote...

Wanders into thread......looks around......and runs back out before thread is closed.


Epler's in this thread, so maybe we'll be allowed to have a cogent discussion without another more over-eager mod freaking out at the slightest misstep.

Modifié par Silfren, 19 juin 2013 - 08:36 .


#88
AlanC9

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Morocco Mole wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

So they should have avoided pandering by.... making her stone butch or something?


No (though it would be hilarious seeing BSN's reaction) they should just lay off the creepy romance scenes and just fade to black after a kiss or something. With a little dialog afterwards.


That's a whole different topic, isn't it!

#89
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I would gladly play a game where homosexuality (or heterosexuality) is seen as an "issue" or a "sin". THIS would be mature.
In Thedas, there is no issue about sexuality. People don't look at transvestites as if they are monsters, you can be homosexual or heterosexual without being purchased or killed by some organisation.
If there is "sexuality" in a game, I actually want it to have a meaning into the lore or the general plot.


This is called setting. Homosexuality (IIRC) wasn't a huge thing until various religions grew in popularity. Perhaps it was frowned upon, but never to the extent of death or even making it illegal.

If the setting allows it, then it is so. There are tons of more pressing issues to be tackled and explored than homosexuality. In fact, I think the entire bloody thing is the most immature notion convieved by the human race! This idea of unnatural behaviour or evil is down-right idiotic.

Let BioWare do something mature that's important. Politics, racism, slavery, humanity, faith. Not some contrived hate based solely on the LOVE of two same-sex partners.

Modifié par simfamSP, 19 juin 2013 - 08:43 .


#90
Cheylus

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Perhaps, but as I understood what you originally wrote, you were saying that you don't like the fact that Dragon Age does not treat homosexuality as a bad thing, the way it is often derided as a bad thing in the real world, and that because of this you didn't think the issue was being handled maturely.   You seem to be saying that because certain expressions of sexuality are treated with contempt in reality, a game should tackle that issue to make people think by writing stories about said bigotry.

No, I don't "like" the fact that Dragon Age eludes every issue with sexuality.

No, it's not even that. I don't like people focusing on sexuality and/or relationships in Dragon Age because it's a game where sexuality is "easy": there is no disease, almost no issue with birth (apart from mages giving birth to mages and the fact curses can go on through blood, like Calenhad/Marric/Alistair), nobody cares if someone like men or women. It's an happy fantasy world. There's almost nothing to say about sexuality in Thedas.

What people are trying to say to you is that many people just want to play games where they don't have to be confronted with the same bullsh*t they experience in life already.

On my part, I don't want to play a game to "evade" from the real world, for me it's like taking a placebo. I want to play a game like I open a book: I want it to be full of questions to "import" in my practical life. A good book is entertaining AND problematic. I expect a video game to be entertaining AND problematic too. 

Modifié par Cheylus, 19 juin 2013 - 08:48 .


#91
bleetman

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In Thedas, there is no issue about sexuality. People don't look at transvestites as if they are monsters, you can be homosexual or heterosexual without being purchased or killed by some organisation.

Yeah, what a terrible situation to be in.

<_<

Modifié par bleetman, 19 juin 2013 - 08:49 .


#92
Silfren

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Cheylus wrote...

Perhaps, but as I understood what you originally wrote, you were saying that you don't like the fact that Dragon Age does not treat homosexuality as a bad thing, the way it is often derided as a bad thing in the real world, and that because of this you didn't think the issue was being handled maturely.   You seem to be saying that because certain expressions of sexuality are treated with contempt in reality, a game should tackle that issue to make people think by writing stories about said bigotry.

No, I don't "like" the fact that Dragon Age eludes every issue with sexuality.

No, it's not even that. I don't like people focusing on sexuality and/or relationships in Dragon Age because it's a game where sexuality is "easy": there is no disease, almost no issue with birth (apart from mages giving birth to mages and the fact curses can go on through blood, like Calenhad/Marric/Alistair), nobody cares if someone like men or women. It's an happy fantasy world. There's almost nothing to say about sexuality in Thedas.


Thedas is hardly a happy fantasy world, if you are trying to suggest that the lack of sex-based prejudice somehow turns the entire world into a bigotry-free paradise.  It's currently being ripped apart due to human conflicts involving social class, racial hatred, etc.  It is handling plenty of real world issues; prejudice stemming from sexual expression just happens to not be one of them.  Why is this such a bad thing?

Modifié par Silfren, 19 juin 2013 - 08:54 .


#93
Dragoonlordz

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Romance is probably one of the things I care least about in a game, any game including Bioware's.

I have nothing against those who enjoy such but to me DA was never a dating sim.

Neither was my interest in Mass Effect any way related to who you screw and romance along the way.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 19 juin 2013 - 08:58 .


#94
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There was some post a while ago that addressed the age ratings and how the themes like bigotry that we associate with "rated M for mature" games are fundamentally immature in truth. I liked that post. Lemme go find it.

Here it is.

#95
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No, it's not even that. I don't like people focusing on sexuality and/or relationships in Dragon Age because it's a game where sexuality is "easy": there is no disease, almost no issue with birth (apart from mages giving birth to mages and the fact curses can go on through blood, like Calenhad/Marric/Alistair), nobody cares if someone like men or women. It's an happy fantasy world. There's almost nothing to say about sexuality in Thedas.


You *do* know that by doing this you've basically turned an optional mechanic into something so huge it creates a solar eclipse and calls itself simulation.

#96
John Epler

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Alright, we're done here.