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Shut Up About "His" Choices.


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#1
teh DRUMPf!!

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 Destroy, Control, and Sync are all Crucible functions.

They are not "given to you by the Catalyst." Or, to use anti-ender sensationalist/victim rhetoric, they are not "decrees forced down upon you by the evil, meglomaniacal warlord Reaper-AI dictator of the galaxy and his racist Nazi agenda."

The only things that people who make this claim base it on is the fact he's telling you what your options are and because of some "looks like"-nonsense from the cutscene itself ("looks like its part of the decision chamber.").

That's it. Two weak pieces of evidence to support that claim.


Now, let's try my explanation...

1.) It is clearly stated in the ending's in-game dialogue (EC more than original version) that the options come from the Crucible.

Relevant Quotes:

1.) Catalyst on finding a new solution: "You have altered the variables." (keyword: you).
2.) Catalyst, on finding a new solution: "I can't make them happen. If there is to be a new solution, you must act." (common sense: why design three choices that he "wants" -- some more than others -- but has to rely on someone else to activate? Also, why would he just "sit on" three solutions that -- by his admission -- are better than his own??)
3.) Catalyst on Destroy: "The Crucible will not descriminate." (keyword: the Crucible).
4.) Catalyst on Destroy: "Your Crucible device appears to be (state of device, EMS-dependent). However, the effects of the blast will not be constrained to the Reapers." (keyword: the Crucible).
5.) Dialogue Wheel, renegade response: "Then I won't use the Crucible." (I forget what the response is from Shepard after choosing this option, and youtube only ever has paragon dialogue selected by the uploader)
6.) Catalyst on Control: "You could instead use the energy of the Crucible to take control of the Reapers." (keyword: the Crucible... noticing a trend by now??).
7.) Catalyst on Sync: "Add your energy to the Crucible's. The chain reaction will combine organic and synthetic life into a new framework." (keyword: the Crucible).
8.) Catalyst on Sync: "The energy of the Crucible, released in this way, will alter the matrix of organic life in the galaxy."

... everything here works with the idea that the options are Crucible outcomes, not with pre-determined Catalyst choices.

And to preemptively respond to the two obvious responses...

"The Crucible is just a battery!"

No, it isn't. He calls it a "power source," which is a very broad term. One can accurately call anything from a battery to a nuclear weapon a "power source." That wasn't all he said, either. He also said (in the sentience immediately following it) that it is "adaptive in its design" -- meaning it can take on alternative functions (may not be the case in Low-EMS, however). Going hand-in-hand with that, the quotes above re-affirm the notion that the Crucible's energy can be released in ways that have different effects.

"I don't trust what the Catalyst says!"

Refer to quote #5. Shepard, even in objecting to the Catalyst, approaches the option as a Crucible outcome.

Do you not trust anti-Catalyst Shepard?

Also, there's more than just his quotes. Continue readan...


2.) Pic: Crucible/Decision Chamber Design Explained.

Consider this a response to the aforementioned "looks like"-nonsense.

Image IPB

Kudos to whoever made that. It definitely helped me better understand things with the ending. Generally speaking, the ending in general makes a lot more sense if you treat the options as Crucible outcomes, not the Catalyst's options (refer back to quote #2 and my notes on it in the above quotes section). If an explanation does not make sense, don't hold on to it because of "looks like" and "sounds like"-nonsense; discard it and search for a more sensible one.


3.) Solutions to Both Problems.

The only outstanding issue left is that the Crucible doesn't simply solve your problem (the Reapers) but it also solves the Catalyst's problem (tech singularity). 'Seems "all too convenient" that your options all seem to help him out.

It shouldn't. Your problem and his are one in the same. Catalyst/Reapers = manifestation of singularity.

I devoted an entire thread to this idea. I'll just re-post it here rather than repeat myself: [linky.]



So yeah, enough whining about "poor me having to capitulate to the agenda of the psychopathic, monstrous," ... ah hell, I can't even. Alllll the evidence points to those options as Crucible functions, which ofc, your allies built alone.

The Catalyst is only there to serve as an info-dump for the device and for the Reapers. Attacking him for the choices is just shooting the messenger -- it's misplaced anger and only an idiot thinks that will solve anything.

Don't like the ending? Fine. This thread is not for you to complain about it, though. You can always do that in a topic where the OP is sympathetic to your feelings, but odds are, I will not be and will actively challenge what you post.

#2
Karlone123

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You spend that much time on here, you're going to annoy yourself with this stuff. Take a break.

Modifié par Karlone123, 19 juin 2013 - 09:17 .


#3
Fixers0

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I'd wonder what the construction crew guys when thinking when they're building this thing, you control rods, An exposed tube,etc.

#4
KaiserShep

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Technically, the construction crew would be either Keepers or the reapers themselves, since the rods and power conduit are part of the Citadel's center.

In any event, at least the option to simply rid the galaxy of pesky giant space bugs is still available. Thanks catalyst, for being there when Avina couldn't. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 19 juin 2013 - 09:21 .


#5
Argentoid

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Fixers0 wrote...

I'd wonder what the construction crew guys when thinking when they're building this thing, you control rods, An exposed tube,etc.


I have a theory, but it sucks.

#6
teh DRUMPf!!

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Karlone123 wrote...

You spend that much time on here, you're going to annoy yourself with this stuff. Take a break.



I am a glutton for punishment.

In any case, I anticipate being done with this place not long from now.

'Til then, [refer to top of sig.]

#7
ioannisdenton

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Beware the term CATALYST.
it is not called catalyst by chance.
The catalyst acts like the catalyst of which purpose the crucible will serve:
Superweapon ---> destroy
Power source ---> synthesis or control

#8
Bill Casey

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The Catalyst is giving the ultimatum...
Use the Crucible or I kill you and everything you've ever loved...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 19 juin 2013 - 09:28 .


#9
ioannisdenton

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Also the crucible is built by countless cycles and civilisations.
We are told by javik and vendetta that in the protheans era there was a group similar to cerberus: tried to controll the reapers.
So each cycle added something different to the crucible...
Some tried to complete the superweapon fanction
Others added the control function.
All of them collaborated in the raw "power" or "energy" the crucible would have, hence the synthesis.

Come on people it is not hard to understand or at least imagine.

#10
ioannisdenton

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Bill Casey wrote...

The Catalyst is giving the ultimatum...
Use the Crucible or I kill you and everything you've ever loved...

seriously afetrt the battle of the citadel in Me1 did you expect a conventional victory? i did not.
Casting Warp or concussive shot to a reaper would be stupid and hilarious

#11
KaiserShep

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Bill Casey wrote...

The Catalyst is giving the ultimatum...
Use the Crucible or I kill you and everything you've ever loved...


Technically, yes. Made the decision a bit easier though. 

#12
Yestare7

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Karlone123 wrote...

 Take a break.


You'll still get a waffle for all that hard work!!


Image IPB

#13
teh DRUMPf!!

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Bill Casey wrote...

The Catalyst is giving the ultimatum...
Use the Crucible or I kill you and everything you've ever loved...



Using the Crucible or dying was understood long before the Catalyst entered the picture.

Also, the Catalyst couldn't make any of the options take place -- not even his clear favorite, if unlocked.

Have a seat.

#14
Bill Casey

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HYR 2.0 wrote...

Using the Crucible or dying was understood long before the Catalyst entered the picture.

The Child is the reapers...
He's the one killing, raping and mutilating everyone...

Also, the Catalyst couldn't make any of the options take place -- not even his clear favorite, if unlocked.


But he sure as hell can hold a gun to your head and make you do it...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 19 juin 2013 - 09:43 .


#15
teh DRUMPf!!

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Bill Casey wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Using the Crucible or dying was understood long before the Catalyst entered the picture.

The Child is the reapers...
He's the one killing everyone...



... and that changes nothing. The mission is still "Use the Crucible or die" as it was before.


Bill Casey wrote...

Also, the Catalyst couldn't make any of the options take place -- not even his clear favorite, if unlocked.

But he sure as hell can hold a gun to your head...



If the only organic in the galaxy capable of conquering the Reapers fails to do so because he's too weak-willed, then it necessitates the cycles all over again. His solution remains valid 'til a counterexample is had.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 19 juin 2013 - 09:44 .


#16
Bill Casey

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It changes everything...
You can't win...

You lose in every ending unless you're a goddamn sociopath...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 19 juin 2013 - 09:46 .


#17
Guest_tickle267_*

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Yestare7 wrote...

Image IPB




#18
xlegionx

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But then there are statements made by the Catalyst that contradict these ideas: "The Crucible is little more than a power source."

That and the machinery needed to enact Destroy and Control are located on the Citadel

EDIT: nvm that image provides a valid counter-point to my second point

Modifié par xlegionx, 19 juin 2013 - 09:48 .


#19
AresKeith

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Umad?

#20
teh DRUMPf!!

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xlegionx wrote...

But then there are statements made by the Catalyst that contradict these ideas: "The Crucible is little more than a power source."


HYR 2.0 wrote...

And to preemptively respond to the two obvious responses...

"The Crucible is just a battery!"

No, it isn't. He calls it a "power source," which is a very broad term. One can accurately call anything from a battery to a nuclear weapon a "power source." That wasn't all he said, either. He also said (in the sentience immediately following it) that it is "adaptive in its design" -- meaning it can take on alternative functions (may not be the case in Low-EMS, however). Going hand-in-hand with that, the quotes above re-affirm the notion that the Crucible's energy can be released in ways that have different effects.



That and the machinery needed to enact Destroy and Control are located on the Citadel


Please refer to the picture provided (... did you read the OP??)

#21
David7204

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They are not Crucible functions. Why in the hell would the Catalyst offer them to Shepard if they were? Plus the fact that they're physically a part of the Citadel and not the Crucible. Plus the fact the the Catalyst flat-out says the Crucible is merely a power source (which means it's power and nothing else) and has no reason to lie. Plus the fact that raises the question of why the Crucible needs the Citadel to function at all. Plus the fact that it makes no sense at all that the Crucible could have those functions built into it without the Alliance and whatever knowing.

Modifié par David7204, 19 juin 2013 - 09:56 .


#22
sH0tgUn jUliA

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It is amazing how as soon as this massively overpowered "game over" sized force entered the galaxy this Crucible design suddenly popped up on Mars.

Looking back to 2010 and 2011 with the reapers doing their thing every 50,000 years for a billion + years and being as overpowered as Sovereign, and given the reasonable amount of time of 20 years to build a fleet to counter Sovereign's design to stand a chance Shepard would have been in her early 50s, and a damn the budget we'll sort it out later attitude, we might have stood a chance. Now you would have had lines like "I'm too old for this s***!" flying, but still. But they made the journey in 3 years, completely overpowered but had to be dumb as rocks to compensate, because we'd been as dumb as rocks. What do you expect?

HYR 2.0. You're overthinking this. The Crucible is there because there was no other way to win the game. If the writer didn't put it there they might as well have put right after "We fight or we die" -- Critical Mission Failure: Game Over; You Lose. Shortest game ever.

Reapers in story... not innocent. Starboy.... not innocent. Guilty as charged. Do you understand?

#23
teh DRUMPf!!

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Bill Casey wrote...

It changes everything...


Repeating lies don't make them true. Situation remains unchanged: Crucible or die. Don't like it? Blame your allies.


You lose in every ending unless you're a goddamn sociopath...


Only Refuse is a loss. Otherwise, civilization intact = win.



AresKeith wrote...

Umad?


OMG yes, I am soooo mad!



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WAAAAAAAAAAT THE FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK!!!!!!!!!!!


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ARRRrrrrrghhh!!!

#24
xlegionx

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@HYR 2.0: In many of the statements from the Catalyst above, he says "add your energy to the Crucible's" or "the energy of the Crucible", which solidifies the fact that its a power source. And a nuclear weapon is not a power source. a power source, like a battery provides power so that something else can carry out its own function.

And taking a second look at that image, what happened to that "nubbin" within a split-second camera change everything falls into place?

Ultimately, a lot of this can be chalked up to narrative inconsistency, something that is unfortunately quite common in ME3

#25
Bill Casey

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HYR 2.0 wrote...

Repeating lies don't make them true.

And yet you continue to do so...