418 réponses à ce sujet

[dreamgazer]

KaiserShep wrote...

Is there such a thing as a rational Luddite?

Sure.  Think about people's grandparents and their resistance to technology.

[AresKeith]

dreamgazer wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

HYR 2.0, don't let these irrational luddites corrupt you. Dismiss everything they say as nonsense, your words are lost on them.

Luddites? Been a while since I've seen that wonderful little word. Guess a certain poster rubbed off on someone.

Should the "irrational luddites" throw insults at the generalized group for which you belong?

Oh what fun 

[Iakus]

CronoDragoon wrote...

As for the geth, you are in essence asking a leading question. Since you believe it's genocide, you expect the game to acknowledge this. But for those who see it as a sacrifice, as collateral damage for using the Crucible, then yes this is acknowledged when Hackett talks about the victory being paid for with allies' lives.

That is such a generic statement he could be talking about literally anyone.  Anderson's resistance, Sword Fleet, the lost colonies.  Anyone who died in battle.  Nothing mentioned by those shot in the back by their own allies, forced to "take one for the team" without even having the courtesy of being told.

And you get happily ever after slides and convos with your Origins bros and broettes, too, so that doesn't mean much.

Not necessarilly.  There's actually a lot of possible ending slides.  Not all are good.  Though I do admit with DA2, not all are accurate either.

Your opinion about the Catalyst's prediction is irrelevant, because it's still an instance of potential problems being brought up.

...and ignored.

And no, EDI is not ignored. You see her when Hackett talks about sacrifice. You don't see a random geth, no.

So where is EDI's goodbye?  WHere is the scene of her saving Joker's life in her final moments?  Where is EDI telling SHepard she understands and approves of the choice?  

[Eterna]

Everyone on this forum is wrong except for me.

Because I am not a luddite.

This is my headcannon, it is not to be disputed.

Damn luddites and their corruptive influence. Go back to yer damn hovels.

[dreamgazer]

iakus wrote...

So where is EDI's goodbye?  WHere is the scene of her saving Joker's life in her final moments?  Where is EDI telling SHepard she understands and approves of the choice?  

This is as good as you're going to get, and it's not half bad. 

http://youtu.be/l6H51zfStvk?t=7m37s

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...

That is such a generic statement he could be talking about literally anyone.  Anderson's resistance, Sword Fleet, the lost colonies.  Anyone who died in battle.

It has to be generic because so many freaking people died in this game. Should I be mad that the game didn't mention each sacrifice specifically?

Nothing mentioned by those shot in the back by their own allies, forced to "take one for the team" without even having the courtesy of being told.

That is begging the question.

Not necessarilly.  There's actually a lot of possible ending slides.  Not all are good.  Though I do admit with DA2, not all are accurate either.

They aren't all happy in ME3, either. Rannoch wasteland?

...and ignored.

How can you expect to effectively capture that question in an epilogue? Whether or not synthetics and organics will work in the future is content that an entire game would need to explore, not a slide.

So where is EDI's goodbye?  WHere is the scene of her saving Joker's life in her final moments?  Where is EDI telling SHepard she understands and approves of the choice?

It's not my problem that the game doesn't acknowledge EDI in specifically the way that you want it to. EDI is not ignored any more than Mordin is ignored.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 21 juin 2013 - 08:32 .

[Iakus]

[quote]CronoDragoon wrote...

It has to be generic because so many freaking people died in this game. Should I be mad that the game didn't mention each sacrifice specifically?[/quote]

Allies Shepard personally puts on the chopping block personally should get special mention, yes.

[quote]
That is begging the question.[/quote]

Or explaining the unpleasant circumstances


[quote]
They aren't all happy in ME3, either. Rannoch wasteland? [/quote]

There's two that I know of that aren't "happily ever after"  Congrats on finding one of them.


[quote]

How can you expect to effectively capture that question in an epilogue? Whether or not synthetics and organics will work in the future is content that an entire game would need to explore, not a slide.[/quote]

Then they shouldn't have raised the question, forcing us to commit horrific acts to "find a solution"

[quote]
[quote]So where is EDI's goodbye?  WHere is the scene of her saving Joker's life in her final moments?  Where is EDI telling SHepard she understands and approves of the choice?[/quote]

It's not my problem that the game doesn't acknowledge EDI in specifically the way that you want it to. EDI is not ignored any more than Mordin is ignored.
{/quote]

I think I just demonstrated that, yes, she was.

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...
Allies Shepard personally puts on the chopping block personally should get special mention, yes.

In my opinion they shouldn't.

There's two that I know of that aren't "happily ever after"  Congrats on finding one of them.

Thank you. 

Then they shouldn't have raised the question, forcing us to commit horrific acts to "find a solution"

Don't move the goalposts, please. We're discussing whether or not the game poses questions about the future, not whether or not we should have been forced to commit horrific acts.

I think I just demonstrated that, yes, she was.

They both get goodbye scenes.

www.youtube.com/watch

[dreamgazer]

CronoDragoon wrote...

They both get goodbye scenes.

www.youtube.com/watch

Heh.  Y'know, that's actually the first time I've seen the Collector armor  in use. Very entertaining. 

[ruggly]

Eterna5 wrote...

Everyone on this forum is wrong except for me.

Because I am not a luddite.

This is my headcannon, it is not to be disputed.

Damn luddites and their corruptive influence. Go back to yer damn hovels.

facking mouthbreathers.

[Iakus]

[quote]CronoDragoon wrote...

In my opinion they shouldn't.[/quote]

Explain.  THeir deaths are the direct result of Shepard's choice.  Why should they not get a special mention?

[quote]

[quote]Then they shouldn't have raised the question, forcing us to commit horrific acts to "find a solution"[/quote]

Don't move the goalposts, please. We're discussing whether or not the game poses questions about the future, not whether or not we should have been forced to commit horrific acts.[/quote]

They're linked.  We have to commit a horrific act because of the question.  To my mind, that means the question needs to be addressed.  Was the act worth it?  was the act appreciated?

[quote]I think I just demonstrated that, yes, she was.
[/quote]

They both get goodbye scenes.

www.youtube.com/watch

[/quote]

Heck, by that logic Joker got a goodbye scene.  That's not the same thing and you know it

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

iakus wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Alistair says "I'm concerned about what it's going to cost eventually."

Really, THAT's the difference to you? A difference that isn't even expressable in ME3's ending epilogues because there's no conversation after? A line that doesn't implicate the PC's guilt AT ALL, even though the reasons for choosing the Dark Ritual over alternate endings are FAR worse than the reasons for using the Crucible? There is literally no reason to do the DR except to save yourself. It's selfish.

It's a sight mor ethan what we get with ME3.  "Geth, what geth?"

Oh, and there are people who choose the DR not just to save a life, but because they want to redeem the Old God as well.  Not all the reasons are selfish.

I'm sorry, but ME3 presents at least the same level of concern with every ending except Synthesis, which I can't comment on because I haven't played it. The Control monologues can be pretty ominous, even the Paragon one. You are warned by the Catalyst that if you pick Destroy then synthetics will rise up again and war with organics.

I'm willing to concede that Control does it better than the others.  But we still get the "and they all lived happily ever after" ending slides and the Stargazer scene.  And the other endings dont' even get the creepy monologue.

And the Catalyst's prediction is meaningless as he provides no evidence beyond "because I said so".  The geth and EDI are (or were) here and now.  And it's totally ignored.  

I chose the DR for two reasons: 1) I liked Morrigan's idea. The old god would be free of the taint and raised properly by a witch who was my character's best friend. 2) I would also get to survive. In one case the old god would be raised by the two of us (Witch Hunt where my male warden went with her). I hope her idea is not painted as evil in DA:I since I did it in 9 out of 10 play throughs.

The Geth? "A ship travels faster than I can, and given the right programming can choose locations even defend itself when attacked, but it is just a machine. It was built for the sole purpose of serving its master, and it can be dismantled whenever its master decides. I wish to use our natural affinity to artificial intelligence to return to Geth to control under their rightful masters, the Quarian race." -- Admiral Xen  And they are on their way.

But Legion wants to upload genuine Reaper ™ code to the Geth, which makes them vulnerable to the Destroy ending.

EDI was retconned in ME3. In ME2 her blue box was based on reaper tech, not made from genuine Reaper ™ parts. That is a key difference. In ME3, however, her blue box is made from genuine Reaper ™ parts. This makes it vulnerable to the Destroy ending. Her code, however, is not.

I really don't see how this wave can be a reaper code seeking wave. It reminds me of the Neutron Bomb development misquotes in the newspapers back in the 1970s. The Sacramento Bee in particular: the neutron bomb will only affect military targets and leave civilians alone.  "Hi, I am a neutron. Are you a civilian? You are? Okay, have a nice day." But then so much  in the ending. So little explanation. So little time.

Shepard has synthetic parts that are based on reaper tech, not genuine Reaper ™ parts.

The Virtual Aliens? I don't see how they would be affected. It doesn't say anywhere that they contain any reaper code or any genuine Reaper ™ parts.

We have to draw the line somewhere, and Bioware did. They allowed us to retain our VIs aboard our ships otherwise our ships would not function. They allowed us to retain our FTLs otherwise our ships would not fly. FTLs are based on reaper tech.

Originally all the mass relays were destroyed, and remained so for 30 days. Then that got retconned. Then another thing got retconned. Now turning a blue box AI off doesn't kill it, which means depowering Geth wouldn't kill them either. See how things can be changed and there's always a big enough ass pull to justify everything. I've come to the conclusion that the ending doesn't make any sense at all, and it's completely open to any interpretation you want to give it.

Mac Walters is going to start the next game and completely ignore the red, green or blue decision any of us made. There is not going to be any save game import. Nor any "genesis" comic. It is the start of a brand new story that takes place after the reaper war. They'll sweep the ending under the rug and pretend it never happened in the first place. None of the characters of the trilogy will be in it except in the codex. And that's that.

So basically, if you choose, you can go by the link in my signature, and say "The presence of EDI on the board is because the sexbot fried because it was made from genuine Reaper ™ parts, but we powered down EDI per Shepard's instructions and went by the ME2 codex." The Geth? Well, if you're on a console the simple solution is to side with the Quarians in ME3. That renegade ME2 loyalty mission for Tali is great, then wish the Quarians "Good luck in your war." Blow up the Heretics, and you're good.

[AlanC9]

CronoDragoon wrote...

iakus wrote...
Allies Shepard personally puts on the chopping block personally should get special mention, yes.

In my opinion they shouldn't.

Shoulds and shouldn'ts aside, Hackett doesn't necessarily know that Shepard had any choice or any knowledge of the consequences, does he? A high-EMS Shep might tell folks, might not. Though I suppose future scientists might someday figure out that the Crucible's real purpose was Synthesis and put 2 and 2 together

Modifié par AlanC9, 21 juin 2013 - 09:50 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

AlanC9 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

iakus wrote...
Allies Shepard personally puts on the chopping block personally should get special mention, yes.

In my opinion they shouldn't.

Shoulds and shouldn'ts aside, Hackett doesn't necessarily know that Shepard had any choice or any knowledge of the consequences, does he? A high-EMS Shep might tell folks, might not.

My high-EMS Shepard will tell Hackett this: "You gave me orders to destroy the reapers. The Catalyst presented three choices. One was The Illusive Man's idea. One joined us with the Reapers. Only one of them destroyed the reapers. I followed your orders, sir."

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

and once again for the bioware board glitch

[Kel Riever]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

iakus wrote...
Allies Shepard personally puts on the chopping block personally should get special mention, yes.

In my opinion they shouldn't.

Shoulds and shouldn'ts aside, Hackett doesn't necessarily know that Shepard had any choice or any knowledge of the consequences, does he? A high-EMS Shep might tell folks, might not.

My high-EMS Shepard will tell Hackett this: "You gave me orders to destroy the reapers. The Catalyst presented three choices. One was The Illusive Man's idea. One joined us with the Reapers. Only one of them destroyed the reapers. I followed your orders, sir."

Well, technically you are out of the chain of command, being a Spectre and all.  But you know, I wouldn't even bother explaining it.  I'd be like, "Hey, the Geth lived, so did EDI and so did I, because, facts."  Then go party with everyone (like you did)

[Iakus]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Mac Walters is going to start the next game and completely ignore the red, green or blue decision any of us made. There is not going to be any save game import. Nor any "genesis" comic. It is the start of a brand new story that takes place after the reaper war. They'll sweep the ending under the rug and pretend it never happened in the first place. None of the characters of the trilogy will be in it except in the codex. And that's that.
 

By the Enkindlers I hope you're right about this.  As far as I'm concerned it's the only way the franchise can stay viable.  Otherwise it got torched with three different colored flames.

[SirLugash]

@OP
You brought some good thought to it.
Especially the image you provided is pretty compelling.

About those quotes: The keywords "The Crucible" could also just point to the Crucible being the power source for the choices (brought by the Catalyst).
You should also consider the Catalyst stating that it tried Synthesis before / is it's ideal solution that it tried to accomplish the whole time.
So the question remains: When the Crucible included the choices and not the Catalyst/Citadel, why would the creators of the Crucible (supposedly threatened by Reapers as well) even consider to include Control and Synthesis into their design?

"Alllll the evidence points to those options as Crucible functions, which ofc, your allies built alone."
Well yeah, but they didn't really know what they were doing, they were following given building instructions.
Let me remind you that we only knew about the Catalyst being part of this because the Prothean VI told us, not because we knew it from the plans.


It could be a mix up of both as well.
The Crucible design only included Destroy as an option, but as it is "adaptive in it's design", the Catalyst was able to "implement" Control and Synthesis into it.

I'm not trying to talk you down on your arguments, just offering a different point of view.
As I said your post is very interesting.

[Eterna]

ruggly wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Everyone on this forum is wrong except for me.

Because I am not a luddite.

This is my headcannon, it is not to be disputed.

Damn luddites and their corruptive influence. Go back to yer damn hovels.

facking mouthbreathers.

Whoa man, tone it down, you don't wan't to offend them. They'll sick Ninja Stan on you for being mean to them. 

[Bill Casey]

Eterna5 wrote...

HYR 2.0, don't let these irrational luddites corrupt you. Dismiss everything they say as nonsense, your words are lost on them.

Shouldn't you be throwing iPhones at Amish people or something?

[Eterna]

Bill Casey wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

HYR 2.0, don't let these irrational luddites corrupt you. Dismiss everything they say as nonsense, your words are lost on them.

Shouldn't you be throwing iPhones at Amish people or something?

iPhones are expensive, I'm not made of money. 

God Bill Casey, you are so rude. Pointing out my poverty and crap. 

Modifié par Eterna5, 21 juin 2013 - 11:30 .

[ruggly]

Eterna5 wrote...

ruggly wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Everyone on this forum is wrong except for me.

Because I am not a luddite.

This is my headcannon, it is not to be disputed.

Damn luddites and their corruptive influence. Go back to yer damn hovels.

facking mouthbreathers.

Whoa man, tone it down, you don't wan't to offend them. They'll sick Ninja Stan on you for being mean to them. 

But they'll never listen to me if I don't constantly hurl out insults!

[Eterna]

ruggly wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

ruggly wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Everyone on this forum is wrong except for me.

Because I am not a luddite.

This is my headcannon, it is not to be disputed.

Damn luddites and their corruptive influence. Go back to yer damn hovels.

facking mouthbreathers.

Whoa man, tone it down, you don't wan't to offend them. They'll sick Ninja Stan on you for being mean to them. 

But they'll never listen to me if I don't constantly hurl out insults!

I know man, I know. But sometimes you just gotta pretend that their opinions matter. The luddites must believe you care about their opinions for balance to be maintained. 

Modifié par Eterna5, 22 juin 2013 - 12:00 .

[ruggly]

Eterna5 wrote...

ruggly wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

ruggly wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Everyone on this forum is wrong except for me.

Because I am not a luddite.

This is my headcannon, it is not to be disputed.

Damn luddites and their corruptive influence. Go back to yer damn hovels.

facking mouthbreathers.

Whoa man, tone it down, you don't wan't to offend them. They'll sick Ninja Stan on you for being mean to them. 

But they'll never listen to me if I don't constantly hurl out insults!

I know man, I know. But sometimes you just gotta pretend that their opinions matter. The luddites must believe you care about their opinions for balance to be maintained. 

True (but we really both know that they'll be the downfall of us all.) I'm keeping my eye on you, you sneaky Amish folk, living there peacefully and not bothering us at all.  They're definitely up to something!

[dreamgazer]

Wait, what's this about the Amish?

Modifié par dreamgazer, 22 juin 2013 - 12:23 .