418 réponses à ce sujet

[Eryri]

Eckswhyzed wrote...

Erm, in ME1 it was stated that one of they key advantages of the Citadel trap is that the Reapers can then take control of the Citadel and use all of the data inside it to make the harvesting easier. Not to mention killing everyone in the galactic government in one blow.

Data which Sovereign could have acquired anyway via his agent Saren, had he not blown his cover by acting like a lunatic. Or the Catalyst could have transmitted it to the Reapers had he not been conveniently hibernating / impotent. Saren could even have used the access granted by his spectre status to assassinate the Councilors, had Sovereign deemed it necessary. He would have been thought of as just a rogue madman. Sovereign need not have revealed his existance at all.

Besides, that information couldn't have been that important. The Reapers seemed to be doing just fine without it. They only bothered to take the Citadel once TIM tipped them off about the Crucible. And even then they failed to do the smart thing and use it to shut down the Relay network.

Modifié par Eryri, 22 juin 2013 - 03:52 .

[remydat]

The Reapers are 20,000 - 0. When you have kicked organics' ass and been undefeated for so many cycles, little sh*t is just that little sh*t. Arguing about why the Reapers didn't do this or that is like asking me why did I let those ants roam free instead of just crushing them. Well because they are ants and I am so superior to them so watching them struggle in vain is amusing.

Organics are insignificant to the Reapers. Organics are fighting a battle that they have won 0 times and lost 20,000 times. Resistance is futile from the perspective of the Reapers so these little setbacks are meaningless.

Modifié par remydat, 22 juin 2013 - 04:37 .

[MegaSovereign]

I find it hard to believe that previous cycles would consider adding the Synthesis functionality. It's very likely that the Leviathans tampered with the design of the Crucible since they would be the only ones to know about the Catalyst's mandate.

[Mcfly616]

remydat wrote...

The Reapers are 20,000 - 0. When you have kicked organics' ass and been undefeated for so many cycles, little sh*t is just that little sh*t. Arguing about why the Reapers didn't do this or that is like asking me why did I let those ants roam free instead of just crushing them. Well because they are ants and I am so superior to them so watching them struggle in vain is amusing.

Organics are insignificant to the Reapers. Organics are fighting a battle that they have won 0 times and lost 20,000 times. Resistance is futile from the perspective of the Reapers so these little setbacks are meaningless.

precisely.

[Mcfly616]

MegaSovereign wrote...

I find it hard to believe that previous cycles would consider adding the Synthesis functionality. It's very likely that the Leviathans tampered with the design of the Crucible since they would be the only ones to know about the Catalyst's mandate.

I am so glad they left the designers of the Crucible as ambiguous as they did. This way we have just enough information to interpret it however we want.

I know their are some that think Leviathan had a hand in the design. I don't necessarily see it that way, but hey, it works. It's not far-fetched at all.

In my case, I can totally believe that some species from some long forgotten cycle may have wanted to take the ultimate step in technological evolution and integrate fully with synthetics, thereby adding the Synthesis functionality.

[MegaSovereign]

@Mcfly.

The Crucible was designed to stop the Reapers. There is no way they could have known that transcending is a solution to the Reaper threat without learning about the Catalyst's mandate.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 22 juin 2013 - 07:42 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

MegaSovereign wrote...

@Mcfly.

The Crucible was designed to stop the Reapers. There is no way they could have known that transcending is a solution to the Reaper threat without learning about the Catalyst's mandate.

QFT

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Greylycantrope wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

@Mcfly.

The Crucible was designed to stop the Reapers. There is no way they could have known that transcending is a solution to the Reaper threat without learning about the Catalyst's mandate.

QFT

Agreed. 

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...
Explain.  THeir deaths are the direct result of Shepard's choice.  Why should they not get a special mention?

Not seeing how it entitles them to special mention just because Shepard pushed the button. If this is what you really believe, you should be voicing your displeasure that the batarians in Arrival didn't get special mention - or like any mention.

They're linked.  We have to commit a horrific act because of the question.  To my mind, that means the question needs to be addressed.  Was the act worth it?  was the act appreciated?

Now you are arguing something else. This is no longer about whether or not moral concerns are raised in the endings; now you want those concerns answered for you. Which I might point out is exactly what does not happen with the Dark Ritual. I'm not going to argue with you about whether or not BioWare should have answered the questions they posed. That is largely an issue of personal preference and you are free to prefer as you will.

Heck, by that logic Joker got a goodbye scene.  That's not the same thing and you know it

What scene would that be? In any case, yes it is the same thing. Those scenes serve the same purpose: namely to give the character a chance to verbalize the completion of their character arc while saying farewell to Shepard. That's what a goodbye scene is, and we got them for all our squadmates before the final push because they knew there might not be time later.

[remydat]

Just like this cycle does not know what it does, if it was built for destory and then another cycle picked up the designs and had no clue what it did, it may have decided that they could only ever hope to control the Reapers and so desigend it for control. Same with synthesis.

Each cycle and various factions within each cycle may have different ideas on how to defeat the Reapers and so over millions of years the Crucible was designed to account for those different options. It is naive to think that every single cycle and every single scientist in each cycle would only desire to destroy the Reapers.

It would all depend who the dominant species was or who found the plans and what their thoughts were.  If someone like TIM (power hungry) was in charge of the Crucible project, he would likely steer that project towards control.  If someone like Saren (thought the enemy was too powerful) was in charge, he would likely steer the project towards synthesis.

Modifié par remydat, 22 juin 2013 - 07:59 .

[CronoDragoon]

Mcfly616 wrote...
In my case, I can totally believe that some species from some long forgotten cycle may have wanted to take the ultimate step in technological evolution and integrate fully with synthetics, thereby adding the Synthesis functionality.

But in order to believe this, you would have to believe that this cycle built the Crucible and added Synthesis for reasons unrelated to the Reaper war, since they could not have known it was a solution to ending the cycles. It seems too coincidental, considering its relevance to the Catalyst.

[MegaSovereign]

remydat wrote...

Just like this cycle does not know what it does, if it was built for destory and then another cycle picked up the designs and had no clue what it did, it may have decided that they could only ever hope to control the Reapers and so desigend it for control. Same with synthesis.

Each cycle and various factions within each cycle may have different ideas on how to defeat the Reapers and so over millions of years the Crucible was designed to account for those different options. It is naive to think that every single cycle and every single scientist in each cycle would only desire to destroy the Reapers.

This is true, but Synthesis does not Control or Destroy the Reapers. In this ending, the Reapers stop the harvest on their own accord.

I can buy that a previous cycle had considered Synthesis, but for this to be even possible they would have had to know about the Catalyst's mandate in order to predict the Reapers' behavior.

[CronoDragoon]

remydat wrote...

Just like this cycle does not know what it does, if it was built for destory and then another cycle picked up the designs and had no clue what it did, it may have decided that they could only ever hope to control the Reapers and so desigend it for control. Same with synthesis.

Each cycle and various factions within each cycle may have different ideas on how to defeat the Reapers and so over millions of years the Crucible was designed to account for those different options. It is naive to think that every single cycle and every single scientist in each cycle would only desire to destroy the Reapers.

But controlling the Reapers is clearly a way to win the war, so it makes sense of the cycles added Control. It does not make sense that a cycle would add Synthesis unless they spoke with the Catalyst, which we KNOW never happened because the Catalyst tells Shepard he's the first organic to reach the platform.

[Mcfly616]

MegaSovereign wrote...

@Mcfly.

The Crucible was designed to stop the Reapers. There is no way they could have known that transcending is a solution to the Reaper threat without learning about the Catalyst's mandate.

and? I never implied they didn't know the Catalyst's mandate. We have no way of knowing exactly what occurred so long ago. All we can do is speculate and come up with whatever interpretation we find most fitting. The Catalyst does mention that it thought the designs had been eradicated. Meaning at some point along the cycles some species may have already come across the fact that Catalyst exists or what it's mandate is or whatever.....and then said species was permanently extinguish from existence as the Reapers are so good at.

I'm not saying that I actually believe an advanced race implemented Synthesis, or that Leviathan didn't.....in all honesty, I never let myself get too carried away with piecing it together. Almost as if I want it to remain ambiguous in my head, because either scenario can fit. Hell, the possibilities are endless

[remydat]

I live in a cycle after and find the crucible plans. I am in charge of the project. I know that this powerful synthetic enemy seeks to destroy me. I don't think I have a shot in hell of defeating them and I have no idea how the crucible works. So I steer the crucible project towards synthesis because I believe if I can link organic and synthetic life, the big evil synthetics may not want to destroy me any longer.

I can arrive at that conclusion without knowledege of the catalyst. Conflict is largely the result of people not understanding each other and seeking to destroy that which is differnet. Thus, creating a solution that helps us understand each other and makes us more similar is an obvious solution.  

Furthermore, making organics more synthetic presumably makes them better fighers as they can integrate with technology better.  It's the fight fire with fire option in the event the Reapers still want to attack.

Modifié par remydat, 22 juin 2013 - 08:07 .

[Redbelle]

Greylycantrope wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

@Mcfly.

The Crucible was designed to stop the Reapers. There is no way they could have known that transcending is a solution to the Reaper threat without learning about the Catalyst's mandate.

QFT

As for what the Crucible could do. The writers could have easily thrown in a line or two...... or three..... for the Cat to explain why it had the function's they developed from the blueprints.

"Those from cycles before your own, saw different ways to defeat us. Some cycles wished to destroy us. Some wished to enslave my creations for their own ends. Yet few chose to seek a means to change both the Reapers and themselves in a way that would benefit all. As cycles passed, those with these goals in mind worked on the crucible design. Not knowing that they were building atop the work of those whose goals they opposed. Unknowingly, they created a machine that possessed many capabilties. Yet none could finish it, as no one understood that they were working on a machine that required balance to fuel all the possibilities it could manifest."

"Those who sought only their goal failed to finish the Crucible. This cycle is different. Many different races came together to complete the work. Many different perspectives, abilities and technologies have achieved together what none could do alone. All that is left is to discover, if all this was enough ".


As a machine. It will do what it was designed to do. Yet it makes little sense for a cycle to spend time developing three function's in the crucible when time was running out for them. If a cycle wanted RG or B then they would have saved themselves work by developing, only, their preferred solution.

The underlying answer to the question of how to deal with the Reapers is that Destroy, Control and Synthesis are solution's the Cat has seen in other cycles. But it destroyed them before the cycles could enact their solutions over the Catalyst's solution of killing advanced races.

[Mcfly616]

MegaSovereign wrote...

remydat wrote...

Just like this cycle does not know what it does, if it was built for destory and then another cycle picked up the designs and had no clue what it did, it may have decided that they could only ever hope to control the Reapers and so desigend it for control. Same with synthesis.

Each cycle and various factions within each cycle may have different ideas on how to defeat the Reapers and so over millions of years the Crucible was designed to account for those different options. It is naive to think that every single cycle and every single scientist in each cycle would only desire to destroy the Reapers.

This is true, but Synthesis does not Control or Destroy the Reapers. In this ending, the Reapers stop the harvest on their own accord.

I can buy that a previous cycle had considered Synthesis, but for this to be even possible they would have had to know about the Catalyst's mandate in order to predict the Reapers' behavior.

is it not possible that some Cycle awhile back had a different philosophy or maybe they started noticing the pattern of the inevitable conflict between organics and synthetics, and understood which each faction seeks?

Meeting the Catalyst or knowing it's mandate wouldn't have been necessary in such a scenario, would it?

[MegaSovereign]

remydat wrote...

I live in a cycle after and find the crucible plans. I am in charge of the project. I know that this powerful synthetic enemy seeks to destroy me. I don't think I have a shot in hell of defeating them and I have no idea how the crucible works. So I steer the crucible project towards synthesis because I believe if I can link organic and synthetic life, the big evil synthetics may not want to destroy me any longer.

I can arrive at that conclusion without knowledege of the catalyst. Conflict is largely the result of people not understanding each other and seeking to destroy that which is differnet. Thus, creating a solution that helps us understand each other and makes us more similar is an obvious solution.

Any interpretation is as good as any but this is a really big stretch.

Synthesis is clearly the most ambitious function of the 3. It's really strange how someone could lose all hope in defeating the Reapers but believe that fundamentally altering all life (successfully, I might add) in the galaxy is a safer bet.

We already know that the Leviathans study each cycle. I just don't see any reason why the Leviathans wouldn't play a part in some way with the design of the Crucible.

[remydat]

You say that as if science is not predicated on ambitious men. And again, you assume your philosophy is shared by every single cycle and every single scientist.

Put it like this, if a dude like Seviel was in charge of the crucible in his cycle, do you think he would not add a Synthesis function?

[Redbelle]

remydat wrote...

You say that as if science is not predicated on ambitious men. And again, you assume your philosophy is shared by every single cycle and every single scientist.

Put it like this, if a dude like Seviel was in charge of the crucible in his cycle, do you think he would not add a Synthesis function?

Pre ME3 Seival or Post ME3 Seival?

[MegaSovereign]

As far as I can tell, Seival does not seem to be interested in stopping the Reapers. But enough about him

I think Vendetta's educated speculation on Thessia is quite relevant here. From a big picture perspective, each cycle behaves in a similar fashion. We all know how different the Prothean era is from the current cycle, but at the end of it all you get the same path of advancement and conflict between factions happening in similar ways. There is a pattern, it's not as random as you make it sound.

[Redbelle]

Reminds me of an episode of Angel where the Angel Gang learned that everything that had been thrown at them had been decided before the fact.

i.e. We are all puppets moving to the design of a higher power.

I suppose this would be a good story direction to go with...... but only if this information is revealed early on.

Something the ME3 ending revealed is how scrappy the ME3 crowd can be if you don't give them something to fight against in game.

[Eckswhyzed]

Couldn't it be possible that a previous cycle learned of the Catalyst's reasoning from the Leviathans and then implemented synthesis in the Crucible as a response?

Modifié par Eckswhyzed, 22 juin 2013 - 09:25 .

[MegaSovereign]

Eckswhyzed wrote...

Couldn't it be possible that a previous cycle learned of the Catalyst's reasoning from the Leviathans and then implemented synthesis in the Crucible as a response?

Yes, in fact I believe something like this is a more likely scenario.

[remydat]

And? What does that have to do with people having different solutions to the same problem? In this cycle, we had people who appeared to want to control the Reapers and people who appeared to want to achieve synthesis with them. The only difference is which of those groups in power.