418 réponses à ce sujet

[MegaSovereign]

remydat wrote...

And? What does that have to do with people having different solutions to the same problem? In this cycle, we had people who appeared to want to control the Reapers and people who appeared to want to achieve synthesis with them. The only difference is which of those groups in power.

Yes, TIM's goals with Control are actually closer to Synthesis (augumentation). However, there isn't really a good reason why anyone would add the Synthesis functionality to achieve those goals.

I guess we could stretch things and say maybe they wanted Synthesis in order to better defend themselves from the Reapers...even though Synthesis also affects the Reapers.

[Maxster_]

David7204 wrote...

That is complete nonsense. Maybe it's what happens to you. And maybe to Walters. But not to all of us. And a story where Shepard stops the Reapers before the Reapers arrive would be crap. The Reapers are going to bulldoze through the galaxy when they arrive, and that's really the end of it.

I'm sensing this very silly attitude you have where you seem to be trying to destroy the Reapers from a real-life perspective. Destroying the Reapers through multiplayer, for example. Destroying the Reapers by preventing the invasion in the first place, which, as I just said, would be a crap story.

I get the feeling this is 'bleeding' out of the game for you and into real life.

It is directly the opposite.
Reapers arrival as in ME3(in full strength) = crap story.
It is crap, because there is no way to defeat them with military. Because not only they outnumbers allied fleets 200 to 1, they are also highly adaptive and cunning.
Thus, even if they arrived with 1% of their numbers, it is already almost impossible(or just very hard) to win against them.
This is why magical crap like Crucible and Catalyst was born. This is why reapers are dumbed down.
This is why ME3 is a pure garbage.

Not only that, this "arrival" also turn ME1 story into nonsense. There is completely no reason for Sovereign to act, if reapers can arrive at any time in full strength.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Sorry for long response time. I'm deep into some long fantasy-football keeper drafts.


[quote]Greylycantrope wrote...

[quote]HYR 2.0 wrote...
Do you know what face-value means? It means you take the information as it's given to you.[/quote]

And apparantly baltantly ignoring other information given to you outside this one scene...[/quote]

Now what info did I blatantly ignore? You brought up, what, two quotes? I showed how they don't disprove me.

That the Catalyst can focus the energy says nothing of his power over said energy's effects.

That was a conclusion you leapt to. Bottom line: there is not one line in-game that states clearly the Catalyst has a hand in the three options you are given at the end of the game. There are quotes that say the options are from the Crucible.


[quote][quote]"The Crucible does not descriminate" means: the Crucible does not descriminate. That's it. Period. Finito.

We are not told why it does not descriminate. We cannot know if -- as you say -- it's because the Catalyst implements the solutions as he wants them, or -- as I say -- the Crucible's options were set in stone before the Catalyst and he has no control over it. Do not worry about this. Focus on the information we are given from that quote.

Therein lies the key distinction between my interpretation and others who disagree entirely. The quote I've provided (the information we can know) proves that the Destroy option comes at least in part from the Crucible. On the flip side, there is nothing within that quote -- nada, nihl, zero, zilch -- to support the notion that the Catalyst has any hand whatsoever in determining the effects of the Destroy option as it's given to you. Even better, there are no quotes in the entirety of the ending that support the notion that the Catalyst created any RGB option as its given to you.[/quote]

"Adaptive in it's design" is not nothing, adaptive means it can be used outside it's intended purpose.[/quote]

Yes, and that would be compelling if there were a shred of evidence that the Catalyst has power over the Crucible's outcomes, but alas...


[quote][quote]THAT is why I dare say that I'm right about this and others are wrong. I
can support my claims with at least something. I can not support the
other side even if I wanted to, because I can't find anything to prove
it. Something > Nothing.[/quote]

.......I'm sorry but that's just really egotistical. Every theory and interpretation has something to support it, you don't have more backing your assertions than other people.[/quote]

You can keep insisting this all you want, but that doesn't make it true. There is canon content that says it's from the Crucible. Of my 8 quotes I provided, 6 say flat-out that the options come completely or at least in part from the Crucible. I found 0 quotes that say they come even in part from the Catalyst's doing. 6 > 0. Nothing egotistical about that fact. Until other people gather more evidence for their claims than I have, they cannot rationally claim theirs is as good as mine.


[quote][quote]Your quote states that the Catalyst is the key to "focusing" the energy.

You have taken that to mean that the Catalyst controls the effects of the energy...

... which is fine, except it doesn't fit the definition of "focusing" whatsoever, so the quote doesn't support your case.
[/quote]

Amongst other things, I don't see it as resticted solely to that. What the quote basically tells you is that whatever you want to use the Crucibles energy for it has to go through the Catalyst first. When the Catalyst is a bit more than you initally expected, it complicated the matter a bit more than, "Well it just needs something to flow into the mass relay network." That everyone is confused when the Crucible doesn't fire after docking supports that things aren't working as intended, again he can turn the thing off, that goes beyond simple focus.[/quote]

Actually, it makes more sense that the connection to the 'relays would work given a Citadel AI. 'Not like the Citadel has a mind of its own that, when the Crucible plugs into it, it's going to know to focus the energy it emits into the relays. Without the Catalyst's targetting calibrations, then, the Crucible becomes useless (hence "turning off").


[quote][quote]We do find out the Citadel is a Reaper factory, but we never learned that the Catalyst personally did the reaping.[/quote]

He turned the Leviathans in a Reaper, he can clearly initiate the process directly if need be.[/quote]

As I recall, Leviathan stated that he raised an army to do his dirty work. You know, kind of like he does right now.


[quote][quote]To you? Yes, I think I have an idea.

Better question: why should I care? It's far from the only ridiculous thing the story has produced.[/quote]

You should care since you're trying to present an idea and show why it has merit.[/quote]

Sure, just remember what story we're dealing with.


[quote]Because the story went through lengths to explain the process and continued to use it in the previously established manner. Javik can continue to sense things about people through inanimate objects, Grunt/Jack's rooms etc. The key to sci-fi is to do thing that wouldn't be believeavle in real life but work because you went through the effort of explaing how the process works through expostions not contradictive ambiguity. That's how fictional concepts can work if they are properly establish within their own context. That's biotics, the prothean's seneroy ability, rachni telepathy, Thorian spores, are all explain and referenced at some point outside the inital plot related encounters and why they largely work, while the Crucible doesn't.[/quote]

(1) Further explanation told us more of Javik's ability to read genetics and epigenetics, yes, not how that info gives him the ability to communicate with any species it touches, lol. (2) They can't just explain more later about the ending as they can with other things -- it's the ending. Once it's over, there's no more story to explain it in. (3) Fans will readily overlook nonsense if the canon (or even headcanon) content at hand is likeable to them. IT is more lore-breaking than the ending, but there were many fans in love with it while they hated the ending. Citadel DLC's plot is very weak, but those issues are ignored in favor of swooning over Shepard's LI content. (4) Explanation of nonsense does not make it less nonsensical. Some explanations for things in the story are pure crap that people never question, but that the crap is written in a Codex entry somehow makes it valid. The Crucible clearly has virtually no hard scientific basis. You think it would get away with any explanation on how it works if they explained it with nonsense? No, says I. It would still be rejected as space-magic. See #3. If one does not like the ending, they will scrutinize it, in ways they don't scrutinize anything else in the game.

Sorry for that block of text.


[quote][quote]It kills the Reapers and all synthetics because it does not focus on anything. Hence, "does not descriminate."[/quote]
If that was the case it would kill everything, it's certainly capable of it as scene in the lower EMS variants, it doesn't descriminate between organics and synthetics at all. Doesn't descriminate just means it doesn't soley target the Reapers, that's the entire purpose of that line.[/quote]

[quote]If that was the case it would kill everything, it's certainly capable of it as scene in the lower EMS variants,[/quote]

[quote]in the lower EMS variants,[/quote]

... need I say more? You yourself just linked the difference between the two to EMS, and not the Catalyst.


[quote][quote]If the Catalyst controls the "elevator" that brought Shepard up to his chamber, then why -- on Low-EMS runs -- does the Catalyst ask Shepard "Why are you here?" rather than tell him "Wake up." - ? Maybe, as I said, he doesn't control everything on the Citadel.[/quote]

Obvious answer is that he's curious why the meatbags are actively trying to messing with his stuff. He's more curtious in the Higher EMS varient since he can do more with the Crucible that's largely intact(he can now fullfill his desired solution hurray) as opposed to the ones that's not. Think about it, if he's just there to facilitate the whims of the Crucible design his disposition shouldn't change at all, which is only true of one aspect of the scenario, he'll still get rather upset with you if you shoot him in the lower EMS variant, so he still wants a new solution even if it's not his ideal.[/quote]

Fair enough. I guess this one can be argued either way.


[quote]A bunch of different interpreations, most of which contradict each other, all of which have flaws, and none that can be taken as defninitive. Yet we still have people shouting that they get things better than others.....gee I wonder why people find that entire concept annoying.[/quote]

See again in this post why I called my interpretation better. It's proven maths: 6 > 0.

Also see my first post ITT after the OP. As I said to someone else, I am a glutton for punishment. I don't tire of this.

So if this annoys you, leave. Seriously. I will only continue annoying you and quite possibly drive you to alcoholism.

[GreyLycanTrope]

HYR 2.0 wrote...
Now what info did I blatantly ignore? You brought up, what, two quotes? I showed how they don't disprove me.

That the Catalyst can focus the energy says nothing of his power over said energy's effects.

That was a conclusion you leapt to. Bottom line: there is not one line in-game that states clearly the Catalyst has a hand in the three options you are given at the end of the game. There are quotes that say the options are from the Crucible.

That we know he's aware of the current design thanks to TIM, the current design according to you includes his ideal solution, he's aware this thing has the capablity of employing his ideal solution before docking and the Reapers are still shooting at it? He says the Crucible proves his solution won't work anymore but he's still trying to fight to maintian it? That makes no logically sense.It's not as clear cut as you're suggesting.

Yes, and that would be compelling if there were a shred of evidence that the Catalyst has power over the Crucible's outcomes, but alas...

Except that he can turn it off, synthesis exists as an option, and a few other things I'll get to further on.

You can keep insisting this all you want, but that doesn't make it true. There is canon content that says it's from the Crucible. Of my 8 quotes I provided, 6 say flat-out that the options come completely or at least in part from the Crucible. I found 0 quotes that say they come even in part from the Catalyst's doing. 6 > 0. Nothing egotistical about that fact. Until other people gather more evidence for their claims than I have, they cannot rationally claim theirs is as good as mine.

Which I already said can be up to interpreation if you consider the the Crucible can be maniputed. I'm saying he's using to Crucible towards his end, not that he's completely bypassing it. Think of Control and Destroy as batardized versions of the originally desired effect, and synthesis as something thrown in when the undamnaged Crucible gives him enough power to do so. Synthesis having a greater power draw seems logical as it's the more abitious. Honestly you're banking a lot on your  quotes just having the term Crucible in them. It's never explicitly stated where to options come from, just that you can use the crucible to achieve them, and yes there is a distinction between the two. An analogy: I can use the DA Character Creator to upload different avatars to my profile, that's not what the program was designed for but it can be used to bypass site policy and suite my whims to a certain extent. This is what I'm talking about, the Crucilbe is a infrastrure intended for some purpose, but the Catalyst manifulates that infrasturture towards his own whims, he still needs to use the device to achieve them but it's not being used in a manner that was intended. So you have a 6 that can still go either way.

Actually, it makes more sense that the connection to the 'relays would work given a Citadel AI. 'Not like the Citadel has a mind of its own that, when the Crucible plugs into it, it's going to know to focus the energy it emits into the relays. Without the Catalyst's targetting calibrations, then, the Crucible becomes useless (hence "turning off").

That's a fairly big design flaw you'd think someone like the Prothean VI would mention about it, I mean he just tells us to plug the thing in, (he also mentions the he's supposed to integrate with the crucible, so the VI not some random AI is supposed be the guiding intelligence for the Citadel, but that's not who we end up talking to), and we can just hack the most AI in existance without know he exists or it's design, can we? Overide his will completely, we can't even handle hacking the Geth which are primitve in comparison.

As I recall, Leviathan stated that he raised an army to do his dirty work. You know, kind of like he does right now.

Yeah and guess who mind controls the army. Indoctrination adversly effects the mind trusing a bunch of brainwashed grunts to handle the complex process initally seems unlikely.

(1) Further explanation told us more of Javik's ability to read genetics and epigenetics, yes, not how that info gives him the ability to communicate with any species it touches, lol. (2) They can't just explain more later about the ending as they can with other things -- it's the ending. Once it's over, there's no more story to explain it in. (3) Fans will readily overlook nonsense if the canon (or even headcanon) content at hand is likeable to them. IT is more lore-breaking than the ending, but there were many fans in love with it while they hated the ending. Citadel DLC's plot is very weak, but those issues are ignored in favor of swooning over Shepard's LI content. (4) Explanation of nonsense does not make it less nonsensical. Some explanations for things in the story are pure crap that people never question, but that the crap is written in a Codex entry somehow makes it valid. The Crucible clearly has virtually no hard scientific basis. You think it would get away with any explanation on how it works if they explained it with nonsense? No, says I. It would still be rejected as space-magic. See #3. If one does not like the ending, they will scrutinize it, in ways they don't scrutinize anything else in the game.

1. Actually it did, we today can use synthetics DNA for data storage, (seriously, google if have the time it's pretty damned cool), this is how ideas and concepts like language can be passed on. Even the Rachni have something like genetic memory so it's not that strage of a concept within the ME universe. Even the Reapers are built on the idea that the genetic structure contains the knowledge of a harvested species.
2. No but they can be less vague about the exposition before hand,
Shep:Say I don't remember anyone trying to program something like synthesis into the Crucble
Catalyst:well you see *exposition*
3. That doesn't make IT good though, it's also a reason neither you or me embrace it so using that is a fairly poor example.
4. It's sci-fi there's going to be things made up, but those made up things are usally the guiding rules for whatever fictional universe you're setting up. Just like when people threw a fit over midichlorians, when star wars was originally set up as Science fantasy. You have to adhear to the premise you yourself set up. When things don't fit that premise people take notice.

... need I say more? You yourself just linked the difference between the two to EMS, and not the Catalyst.

The Catalyst still needs to use to Crucible to initate his plans, therefore if it's damaged he can less of the device to manipulate. (refer to above about power draw and how that might factor in to his ability to implament changes)

See again in this post why I called my interpretation better. It's proven maths: 6 > 0.

Also see my first post ITT after the OP. As I said to someone else, I am a glutton for punishment. I don't tire of this.

So if this annoys you, leave. Seriously. I will only continue annoying you and quite possibly drive you to alcoholism.

I went over the 6>0 bit above already.
I don't find the discussion annoying just the subject to a certain extent. I understand why you're having fun going back and forth over this, just saying why some people might not feel the same about the concept of people trying to explain how to "get" ME3 as a whole. Merely offering some perspective for consideration nothing more.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 23 juin 2013 - 06:51 .

[xlegionx]

@HYR 2.0:

That "Adaptive in its design" quote is rather stupid and can't really be used to prove your point. For example: a battery is adaptive in its design. It has been designed to fit into a variety of machines and provide power to them. This does not mean the function of the battery itself changes. It acts as a power source. Given that the majority of the quotes you use to support your claims mention the energy of the Crucible, not functions directly integrated into the Crucible, the Crucible is little more than a giant battery: a massive power source capable of being applied to multiple functions.

[remydat]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Yes, TIM's goals with Control are actually closer to Synthesis (augumentation). However, there isn't really a good reason why anyone would add the Synthesis functionality to achieve those goals.

I guess we could stretch things and say maybe they wanted Synthesis in order to better defend themselves from the Reapers...even though Synthesis also affects the Reapers.

The goal is to better understand the enemy.  And I already said the added benefit is it would allow you to fight fire with fire as an organic synthetic hybrid most likely can defend itself better because it can more easily use technology.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

[quote]Greylycantrope wrote...

[quote]HYR 2.0 wrote...
Now what info did I blatantly ignore? You brought up, what, two quotes? I showed how they don't disprove me.

That the Catalyst can focus the energy says nothing of his power over said energy's effects.

That was a conclusion you leapt to. Bottom line: there is not one line in-game that states clearly the Catalyst has a hand in the three options you are given at the end of the game. There are quotes that say the options are from the Crucible.[/quote]

That we know he's aware of the current design thanks to TIM, the current design according to you includes his ideal solution, he's aware this thing has the capablity of employing his ideal solution before docking and the Reapers are still shooting at it?[/quote]

TIM was working on his own thing, not the Crucible. He didn't inform them of its designs, that I recall, just what the plan was insofar as using it. Well, he did think it would give him the power to Control, but it could be that he came seeking to implement his own "control" tech into it, or something (whatever was giving him the power to control Shep/Anderson).


[quote]He says the Crucible proves his solution won't work anymore but he's still trying to fight to maintian it? That makes no logically sense. It's not as clear cut as you're suggesting.[/quote]

I dunno. I just headcanon that it has some sort of jamming tech or Reaper IFF-like thing keeping the Reapers from identifying it while it's plugged into the Citadel/Catalyst. I'm not claiming to know this one, though.

Again, 'never said this was perfect.


[quote]Except that he can turn it off, synthesis exists as an option, and a few other things I'll get to further on.[/quote]

To the first: we already knew the Crucible -- whatever it was to do -- was useless without the Catalyst.


[quote]
[quote]You can keep insisting this all you want, but that doesn't make it true. There is canon content that says it's from the Crucible. Of my 8 quotes I provided, 6 say flat-out that the options come completely or at least in part from the Crucible. I found 0 quotes that say they come even in part from the Catalyst's doing. 6 > 0. Nothing egotistical about that fact. Until other people gather more evidence for their claims than I have, they cannot rationally claim theirs is as good as mine.[/quote]Which I already said can be up to interpreation if you consider the the Crucible can be maniputed. I'm saying he's using to Crucible towards his end, not that he's completely bypassing it. Think of Control and Destroy as batardized versions of the originally desired effect, and synthesis as something thrown in when the undamnaged Crucible gives him enough power to do so. Synthesis having a greater power draw seems logical as it's the more abitious. Honestly you're banking a lot on your  quotes just having the term Crucible in them. It's never explicitly stated where to options come from, just that you can use the crucible to achieve them, and yes there is a distinction between the two. An analogy: I can use the DA Character Creator to upload different avatars to my profile, that's not what the program was designed for but it can be used to bypass site policy and suite my whims to a certain extent. This is what I'm talking about, the Crucilbe is a infrastrure intended for some purpose, but the Catalyst manifulates that infrasturture towards his own whims, he still needs to use the device to achieve them but it's not being used in a manner that was intended. So you have a 6 that can still go either way.[/quote]

I get what you're saying, in fact. The issue I'm having is this: everything that people use to assert the notion -- that the Catalyst has any kind of hand in what the Crucible gave us -- boils down to... suspicion (of the Catalyst). I would accept that suspicion if there were any quote saying (clearly) "Beware: the Catalyst will alter the effects of the Crucible to his liking" or something to that effect. Without it, suspicion that he's pulling the strings is unfounded, IMO.

... which is why I don't accept flipping the quotes I provided into what's effectively the opposite. There should be good reason to believe he's pulling the strings before trying to alledge that he's doing it at all.

I would also ask how/why he could "bastardize" Control.

He either wants it, in which case it's fine the way it is, or doesn't, in which case he wouldn't allow it to work as it did.


[quote]
[quote]Actually, it makes more sense that the connection to the 'relays would work given a Citadel AI. 'Not like the Citadel has a mind of its own that, when the Crucible plugs into it, it's going to know to focus the energy it emits into the relays. Without the Catalyst's targetting calibrations, then, the Crucible becomes useless (hence "turning off").[/quote]
That's a fairly big design flaw you'd think someone like the Prothean VI would mention about it, I mean he just tells us to plug the thing in, (he also mentions the he's supposed to integrate with the crucible, so the VI not some random AI is supposed be the guiding intelligence for the Citadel, but that's not who we end up talking to), and we can just hack the most AI in existance without know he exists or it's design, can we? Overide his will completely, we can't even handle hacking the Geth which are primitve in comparison.[/quote]

I remember that. I figured Vendetta's job was to do what the Catalyst did.

Maybe he would have appeared on that console had Shepard not passed out before using it.

I'm not so what to make of the "Crucible changed me" thing, exactly, but now that you bring it up, that quote makes the idea that he has any power over it even harder to believe.


[quote][quote]As I recall, Leviathan stated that he raised an army to do his dirty work. You know, kind of like he does right now.[/quote]

Yeah and guess who mind controls the army. Indoctrination adversly effects the mind trusing a bunch of brainwashed grunts to handle the complex process initally seems unlikely.[/quote]

Sure, but relying on indoc'd grunts means he can't really do it himself. Not really.

Apparently he doesn't design everything to his total control. Citadel?



[quote]1. Actually it did, we today can use synthetics DNA for data storage, (seriously, google if have the time it's pretty damned cool), this is how ideas and concepts like language can be passed on. Even the Rachni have something like genetic memory so it's not that strage of a concept within the ME universe. Even the Reapers are built on the idea that the genetic structure contains the knowledge of a harvested species.[/quote]

The MEU also contains the concept of instant "hybridization" from organic to synthetic.

And...

[quote]2. No but they can be less vague about the exposition before hand,
Shep:Say I don't remember anyone trying to program something like synthesis into the Crucble
Catalyst:well you see *exposition*[/quote]

[quote]4. It's sci-fi there's going to be things made up, but those made up things are usally the guiding rules for whatever fictional universe you're setting up. Just like when people threw a fit over midichlorians, when star wars was originally set up as Science fantasy. You have to adhear to the premise you yourself set up. When things don't fit that premise people take notice.[/quote]

... I forgot what got us here. Huh.


[quote]The Catalyst still needs to use to Crucible to initate his plans, therefore if it's damaged he can less of the device to manipulate. (refer to above about power draw and how that might factor in to his ability to implament changes)[/quote]

Again the difference lies in what we can know and what we cannot know.

We can know EMS affected the state of the Crucible.

We cannot know if this damaged Crucible gets tampered with upon docking.


[quote]I don't find the discussion annoying just the subject to a certain extent. I understand why you're having fun going back and forth over this, just saying why some people might not feel the same about the concept of people trying to explain how to "get" ME3 as a whole. Merely offering some perspective for consideration nothing more.[/quote]

Okay then. Don't say I didn't warn you. 

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 24 juin 2013 - 01:04 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

HYR 2.0 wrote...
TIM was working on his own thing, not the Crucible. He didn't inform them of its designs, that I recall, just what the plan was insofar as using it. Well, he did think it would give him the power to Control, but it could be that he came seeking to implement his own "control" tech into it, or something (whatever was giving him the power to control Shep/Anderson).

He was working off the same exact plans as Shepard, that's why he needed to find the Catalyst as well. It stands to reason that since we where already building the Crcubile he'd make an attempt to hijack the project at the last minute and turn it to his own needs (remember the Allaince was driving the crucible project and their aim wasn't Reaper control), in a similar fashion to what I'm proposing the Catalyst did later, only thing that stopped him was the Reapers not letting him connect the Crucible. The minute he put the Reaper tech in his head they knew what he knew, as the Catalyst made clear when he referenced TIM in control.

To the first: we already knew the Crucible -- whatever it was to do -- was useless without the Catalyst.

Not useless, it just unable to be disburts through the relay network, making it ineffective as a galaxy wide weapon. That doesn't mean it would just shut off.
And to the second? Why is synthesis there out of the blue?

I get what you're saying, in fact. The issue I'm having is this: everything that people use to assert the notion -- that the Catalyst has any kind of hand in what the Crucible gave us -- boils down to... suspicion (of the Catalyst). I would accept that suspicion if there were any quote saying (clearly) "Beware: the Catalyst will alter the effects of the Crucible to his liking" or something to that effect. Without it, suspicion that he's pulling the strings is unfounded, IMO.

... which is why I don't accept flipping the quotes I provided into what's effectively the opposite. There should be good reason to believe he's pulling the strings before trying to alledge that he's doing it at all.

I would also ask how/why he could "bastardize" Control.

He either wants it, in which case it's fine the way it is, or doesn't, in which case he wouldn't allow it to work as it did.

Can we please stop with suspision being the primary motivator thing? Yes I know that some people just don't trust him because he's the mouth piece of the things that have up to this point been our enemies, however that's not the arguement I've ever present and I do believe I've given you some decent examples of how I came to that conclusion outside of simple suspison but what I percieve to be inconsitancies with how the Crucible is suposed to work and what it does. My input has at no point been, "He's the Reaper Overlord, you can't trust him" but "He's the Reaper Overlord, you can't control him."

As far as control goes, what TIM wants is to use the Reapers to help humanity(or just Cerberus depending on what your take on them is) dominate the galaxy, the Catalyst has no intrest in that. He does have some interest in having the Reapers police the galaxy to maintain peace between organics an synthetics though.

I remember that. I figured Vendetta's job was to do what the Catalyst did.

Maybe he would have appeared on that console had Shepard not passed out before using it.

I'm not so what to make of the "Crucible changed me" thing, exactly, but now that you bring it up, that quote makes the idea that he has any power over it even harder to believe.

Yes I did as well but we don't see Vendetta do we. Shep, Anderson were there for a few minutes after docking he should have popped up already or at least given a status update Shepard started moving towards the console.

You're saying a VI managed to somehow integrate and overwrite function within the most advanced AI in the known galaxy? Maybe if they knew something about the AI's design, they don't though so that doesn't strike me as feasible. The reverse seems far more likely.

Sure, but relying on indoc'd grunts means he can't really do it himself. Not really.

Apparently he doesn't design everything to his total control. Citadel?

It means he lacked the inital infrastructure to build a Reaper, indoc'd grunts could have build it for him and went on to harvest victims, while he took care of the processing. Once he had his repears he build improved or built a better version of that facility, the Citadel.

I'm assuming the things that weren't under his control were placed in the hand of the keepers while he was dormant, but reverted once he was awakened. I mean Sovreign took direct control and bypassed the Keepers in ME1, I see no reason to think the Catalyst wasn't capable of doing that as well, espessially since he's much more intefrated with the station.

The MEU also contains the concept of instant "hybridization" from organic to synthetic.

Yes but the only time we've seen anyone outside the Reapers attempt such a method was project overlord but even then the idea wasn't wide spread augmentation, and we still lack the motive of anyone outside the Reapers wanting such an option implemented.

... I forgot what got us here. Huh.

I believe it was something about you not caring that I found certain concepts ridiculous within the established universe, and me saying how typically the established rules of a fictional universe are tied to how willing people are to suspend their disbelief given various presented scenarios. We're kinda digressing but it's not a bad topic.

Again the difference lies in what we can know and what we cannot know.

We can know EMS affected the state of the Crucible.

We cannot know if this damaged Crucible gets tampered with upon docking.

We can infer though. Besides we cannot know it doesn't get tampered with either.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 24 juin 2013 - 04:01 .

[KaiserShep]

I think it's fair to say that the beginning of this thread thoroughly illustrates what's wrong with the logic of the endings. No matter how you slice it, the "choices" are simply arbitrary options that each serve to equally abandon the most important themes established by the entire trilogy. Plot holes, technical details and other quibbles that people tend to bicker over are often mitigated by a meaningful ending that satisfactorily follows up on everything you've been doing for the entire trilogy. If ME3 actually ended with things like tolerance and unity being embraced, rather than capped and tossed out the airlock, only the hardcore nerdlingers who try hard to hate everything would bicker about where the Citadel ends and the Crucible begins.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 24 juin 2013 - 04:40 .

[R3MUS]

My question is, what would happen if someone, like a Turian engineer, found that red tube on the other side of the Citadel tower, and shot it?

Would all Reapers die?

[voteDC]

To be fair they are choices given to you by the Catalyst, no matter how he came upon them.

It is the Catalyst who brings Shepard to his chamber, something Shepard was incapable of doing by his or her self. It is the Catayst who wakes Shepard and presents the three choices it has 'discovered'.

Too many new posts in a short period of time. Please wait a few moments and try again.

I am getting sick of seeing this messege every other time I try and post something.

[R3MUS]

StreetMagic wrote...

R3MUS wrote...

My question is, what would happen if someone, like a Turian engineer, found that red tube on the other side of the Citadel tower, and shot it?

Would all Reapers die?

Damn, if only Homer Simpson had been the maintenance man for the Citadel. He would have definitely screwed something up.

Haha! That would had been something. Homer dropping a wrench on the red tube, making it go BOOM. And then he saved the entire Galaxy while the Reapers were out in darkspace.

[KaiserShep]

R3MUS wrote...

My question is, what would happen if someone, like a Turian engineer, found that red tube on the other side of the Citadel tower, and shot it?

Would all Reapers die?

All of a sudden, the Keepers awaken and it turns out that they used to be a race of carnivorous parasites and swarm everyone on the Citadel. 

[Enhanced]

voteDC wrote...

To be fair they are choices given to you by the Catalyst, no matter how he came upon them.

It is the Catalyst who brings Shepard to his chamber, something Shepard was incapable of doing by his or her self. It is the Catayst who wakes Shepard and presents the three choices it has 'discovered'.

But, all of that happens after Crucible docks. The Crucible forces him to help Shepard or anyone else who would have made it to that point.

Modifié par Enhanced, 24 juin 2013 - 05:41 .

[CronoDragoon]

Enhanced wrote...

But, all of that happens after Crucible docks. The Crucible forces him to help Shepard or anyone else who would have made it to that point.

To maybe put this a different way, the Catalyst is forced by its own nature to open up the possibilities for alternate solutions once the Crucible makes them possible.

[Enhanced]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Enhanced wrote...

But, all of that happens after Crucible docks. The Crucible forces him to help Shepard or anyone else who would have made it to that point.

To maybe put this a different way, the Catalyst is forced by its own nature to open up the possibilities for alternate solutions once the Crucible makes them possible.

I don't think so. He says "the Crucible changed me". Also, when describing the Control option, he can say "I don't look forward to being replaced by you, but I would be forced to accept it".  Comments like that suggests that it reprogrammed him

Modifié par Enhanced, 24 juin 2013 - 08:27 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The datafile that is its personality gets replaced by a new datafile that is your personality. Its core operating system remains the same in Control. I would guess tis why you can't fly the reapers into the sun once you've had them clean up the mess they made. You must now have them watch over the many. You are now a machine.

The Crucible probably added a few lines of code to its datafile. What is so stupid though is that it wants to make changes, and it controls the reapers, yet it doesn't seem to want to stop the reapers from attacking the Crucible. This convinces me it is still a stupid machine. It should have known the day of its destruction was coming. It was selecting toward organics who were going to destroy it, after all organics created it, and thus have the right to destroy it.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

bioware board glitch post.

[Reorte]

Enhanced wrote...

I don't think so. He says "the Crucible changed me". Also, when describing the Control option, he can say "I don't look forward to being replaced by you, but I would be forced to accept it".  Comments like that suggests that it reprogrammed him

Hard to come up with any non-ridiculous method as to how that could've happened, even if you take on the "Leviathans designed the Crucible" argument. If there's reprogramming someone actually building it must've written the code. I suppose the plans could've included a very detailed computer design and a code listing. Remember the "type it in from a magazine" code from years ago? Since they never worked first time that might be the best explanation of Synthesis - a bunch of typos. Of course we're supposed to accept that you can reprogram totally alien computer systems that you've never seen before, Mass Effect isn't the first time something has done that and this isn't the first time in Mass Effect but I really wish they would give it a miss and try to find plots that don't rely on such things.

[Reorte]

It still seems to happen when it's convenient though, but good point about Legion. I'm thinking of the times when someone seems to be able to get Collector gear to do what they want, like opening doors and vents and moving floating platforms. Perhaps for things like that you can handwave it with the sort of unconvincing but convenient explanation used for things like languages, which we accept because we want to easily be able to talk to other characters.

[voteDC]

Enhanced wrote...

voteDC wrote...

To be fair they are choices given to you by the Catalyst, no matter how he came upon them.

It is the Catalyst who brings Shepard to his chamber, something Shepard was incapable of doing by his or her self. It is the Catayst who wakes Shepard and presents the three choices it has 'discovered'.

But, all of that happens after Crucible docks. The Crucible forces him to help Shepard or anyone else who would have made it to that point.

Therein lies a big issue then. Shepard didn't make it to that point, the catalyst brought Shepard there.

Had the Catalyst done nothing then the cycle would have continued.

I find it difficult to belive the Crucible could have done any reprogramming since the people who built it didn't know what the Catalyst was.

Modifié par voteDC, 25 juin 2013 - 12:22 .