418 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

voteDC wrote...


I find it difficult to belive the Crucible could have done any reprogramming since the people who built it didn't know what the Catalyst was.

The people who built it are not the people who designed it. We don't know what the people who designed it knew. They certainly knew stuff that Shepard and Javik's cycles did not.

Maybe it is a Leviathan design? Can't prove it, but it's a workable hypothesis.

[Maxster_]

AlanC9 wrote...

voteDC wrote...


I find it difficult to belive the Crucible could have done any reprogramming since the people who built it didn't know what the Catalyst was.

The people who built it are not the people who designed it. We don't know what the people who designed it knew. They certainly knew stuff that Shepard and Javik's cycles did not.

Maybe it is a Leviathan design? Can't prove it, but it's a workable hypothesis.

Nothing in Crucible's existence makes any sense. It is just a magic artifact.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

[quote]Greylycantrope wrote...

He was working off the same exact plans as Shepard, that's why he needed to find the Catalyst as well. It stands to reason that since we where already building the Crcubile he'd make an attempt to hijack the project at the last minute and turn it to his own needs (remember the Allaince was driving the crucible project and their aim wasn't Reaper control), in a similar fashion to what I'm proposing the Catalyst did later, only thing that stopped him was the Reapers not letting him connect the Crucible. The minute he put the Reaper tech in his head they knew what he knew, as the Catalyst made clear when he referenced TIM in control.[/quote]

'Pretty sure both parties leave Mars with different sets of data. It's possible though.

I think the reason they try to stop it is because they see their solution as valid/working until proven otherwise. That is, organics (like those of this galaxy) have to prove they won't get wiped out by synthetics that surpass them (like the Reapers) before the Catalyst will stop harvesting. The Crucible effectively disproves it, as it allows the organics to take control and prove they don't need saving if worse comes to worse with the synthetics they build.

Once the Crucible docks with the Citadel, though, they're about to lose and the Catalyst knows it.

It even admits it underestimated us, saying: "Clearly, organics are more resourceful than we realized."


[quote][quote]To the first: we already knew the Crucible -- whatever it was to do -- was useless without the Catalyst.
[/quote]
Not useless, it just unable to be disburts through the relay network, making it ineffective as a galaxy wide weapon. That doesn't mean it would just shut off.[/quote]

Well what's the point of using it if not galaxy-wide? I doubt it is good for more than one use.

[quote]And to the second? Why is synthesis there out of the blue?[/quote]
'Thought that was coming later. IMO, Citadel + Crucible = Sync, but I'd rather avoid making this more difficult.


[quote][quote]I get what you're saying, in fact. The issue I'm having is this: everything that people use to assert the notion -- that the Catalyst has any kind of hand in what the Crucible gave us -- boils down to... suspicion (of the Catalyst). I would accept that suspicion if there were any quote saying (clearly) "Beware: the Catalyst will alter the effects of the Crucible to his liking" or something to that effect. Without it, suspicion that he's pulling the strings is unfounded, IMO.

... which is why I don't accept flipping the quotes I provided into what's effectively the opposite. There should be good reason to believe he's pulling the strings before trying to alledge that he's doing it at all.

I would also ask how/why he could "bastardize" Control.

He either wants it, in which case it's fine the way it is, or doesn't, in which case he wouldn't allow it to work as it did.[/quote]

Can we please stop with suspision being the primary motivator thing? Yes I know that some people just don't trust him because he's the mouth piece of the things that have up to this point been our enemies, however that's not the arguement I've ever present and I do believe I've given you some decent examples of how I came to that conclusion outside of simple suspison but what I percieve to be inconsitancies with how the Crucible is suposed to work and what it does. My input has at no point been, "He's the Reaper Overlord, you can't trust him" but "He's the Reaper Overlord, you can't control him."[/quote]

If you're not suspect of him, why reject the quotes I provided at their face-value? I seem to recall you posting something down the lines of: "Yeah, the Crucible doesn't descriminate because of you, kid," among other things.

If true, you're suggesting a  few lies of omission on his part.

As for the last part -- why is it so hard to believe that the Catalyst is *not* in complete control of things? Let's go all the way back to ME1. His main channel from dark-space to Milky Way requires little mutated bugs. The Protheans outfoxed the Catalyst/Reapers by re-programming them and they were helpless to override it and retake control of their bugs.

ME2: the Collector Base was not defensible to a single frigate and fire-team of about a dozen. Kind of pathetic.

We've seen time and again that the Reapers are not infalliable. They have weakness. This cycle exploited them.



[quote]As far as control goes, what TIM wants is to use the Reapers to help humanity(or just Cerberus depending on what your take on them is) dominate the galaxy, the Catalyst has no intrest in that. He does have some interest in having the Reapers police the galaxy to maintain peace between organics an synthetics though.[/quote]

I seem to remember the Catalyst saying the Reapers are Shepard's to direct as he sees fit.




[quote][quote]I remember that. I figured Vendetta's job was to do what the Catalyst did.

Maybe he would have appeared on that console had Shepard not passed out before using it.

I'm not so what to make of the "Crucible changed me" thing, exactly, but now that you bring it up, that quote makes the idea that he has any power over it even harder to believe.
[/quote]
Yes I did as well but we don't see Vendetta do we. Shep, Anderson were there for a few minutes after docking he should have popped up already or at least given a status update Shepard started moving towards the console.

You're saying a VI managed to somehow integrate and overwrite function within the most advanced AI in the known galaxy? Maybe if they knew something about the AI's design, they don't though so that doesn't strike me as feasible. The reverse seems far more likely.[/quote]

I never said that.

I figured Vendetta's intended location was going to be that control panel, but Shepard passes out just before it.

I think one of the writers wanted a "devine intervention" kind of a scene there and bypassed Vendetta entirely.



[quote]I'm assuming the things that weren't under his control were placed in the hand of the keepers while he was dormant, but reverted once he was awakened. I mean Sovreign took direct control and bypassed the Keepers in ME1, I see no reason to think the Catalyst wasn't capable of doing that as well, espessially since he's much more intefrated with the station.[/quote]
If it could bypass the Keepers, wouldn't it have done it already? Like, right after Battle of the Citadel?


[quote][quote]The MEU also contains the concept of instant "hybridization" from organic to synthetic.
[/quote]
Yes but the only time we've seen anyone outside the Reapers attempt such a method was project overlord but even then the idea wasn't wide spread augmentation, and we still lack the motive of anyone outside the Reapers wanting such an option implemented.[/quote]

Yeah I was referring to Reaper-tech, particularly with the Dragon's Teeth.

[quote]I believe it was something about you not caring that I found certain concepts ridiculous within the established universe, and me saying how typically the established rules of a fictional universe are tied to how willing people are to suspend their disbelief given various presented scenarios. We're kinda digressing but it's not a bad topic.[/quote]
I can give a different example, though: the one just above. It's relevant where synthesis is concerned.


[quote][quote]Again the difference lies in what we can know and what we cannot know.

We can know EMS affected the state of the Crucible.

We cannot know if this damaged Crucible gets tampered with upon docking.[/quote]

We can infer though. Besides we cannot know it doesn't get tampered with either.[/quote]

Sure, we should infer what we're given reason to believe is possible.

We can know that the options come, at least in part, from the Crucible.

I can't say the same for the notion that the Catalyst has a hand in those options. No clearly-stated link, just hunch.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 25 juin 2013 - 03:27 .

[voteDC]

AlanC9 wrote...

voteDC wrote...


I find it difficult to belive the Crucible could have done any reprogramming since the people who built it didn't know what the Catalyst was.

The people who built it are not the people who designed it. We don't know what the people who designed it knew. They certainly knew stuff that Shepard and Javik's cycles did not.

Maybe it is a Leviathan design? Can't prove it, but it's a workable hypothesis.

If we are to take the Catalyst at its word, and why wouldn't we since we kill ourselves on it, then Shepard is the first one to know of its existance.

That would mean that, as you suggest, it would need to be a Leviathan design. That is a very good hypothesis but brings to mind the question of why this wasn't mentioned when Shepard found them and why the Crucible wasn't originally designed to link with the Citadel.

[Enhanced]

voteDC wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

voteDC wrote...


I find it difficult to belive the Crucible could have done any reprogramming since the people who built it didn't know what the Catalyst was.

The people who built it are not the people who designed it. We don't know what the people who designed it knew. They certainly knew stuff that Shepard and Javik's cycles did not.

Maybe it is a Leviathan design? Can't prove it, but it's a workable hypothesis.

If we are to take the Catalyst at its word, and why wouldn't we since we kill ourselves on it, then Shepard is the first one to know of its existance.

That would mean that, as you suggest, it would need to be a Leviathan design. That is a very good hypothesis but brings to mind the question of why this wasn't mentioned when Shepard found them and why the Crucible wasn't originally designed to link with the Citadel.

He only says that Shepard is the first organic to stand there. Since the Catalyst lives within the Citadel, standing there wouldn't be a requirement to figure out that he exists. Someone who was able hack into the Citadel, like the Prothean scientists were able to do, would eventually find his programming.

Modifié par Enhanced, 25 juin 2013 - 01:40 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

[quote]HYR 2.0 wrote...
'Pretty sure both parties leave Mars with different sets of data. It's possible though.

I think the reason they try to stop it is because they see their solution as valid/working until proven otherwise. That is, organics (like those of this galaxy) have to prove they won't get wiped out by synthetics that surpass them (like the Reapers) before the Catalyst will stop harvesting. The Crucible effectively disproves it, as it allows the organics to take control and prove they don't need saving if worse comes to worse with the synthetics they build.

Once the Crucible docks with the Citadel, though, they're about to lose and the Catalyst knows it.

It even admits it underestimated us, saying: "Clearly, organics are more resourceful than we realized."
[/quote]
We proved that on Rannoch when we either created peace or destroyed the geth but the Reaper will state that the battle merely proved his assersions, not ours. And the organics were working on the Crucible for centuries why is he impressed now? Because we're able to plug it in? The only reason we even have a shot at this is because the Protheans kept our cycle from getting ambushed at the start, after which the galaxy effectively sat on it's as for two years pefore tripping over the Crucible designs on Mars. Our dumb luck and desperation dissproves his earlier assessment?

How are they about to lose if he can turn it off? You're fleet's the one that's getting wiped out.

Fairly certain that quote is simply in reference to still having the plans to the device as the Catalyst thought he had destroyed all traces of it right before that line.

[quote]
Well what's the point of using it if not galaxy-wide? I doubt it is good for more than one use.
[/quote]
And? Machines don't shrug things of as pointless just because we might percieve them that way. If it's built to release energy it'll release energy, whether or not that flows into something useful for the user isn't it's problem it was build for that very purpose. I mean honestly can you imagine an car engine shutting down just because your car was stuck in ice and unable to move forward because it all seemed ineffective?

[quote]
'Thought that was coming later. IMO, Citadel + Crucible = Sync, but I'd rather avoid making this more difficult.
[/quote]
I'll drop it up here since we're getting into the specific aspects related to our discussion below.

[quote]
If you're not suspect of him, why reject the quotes I provided at their face-value? I seem to recall you posting something down the lines of: "Yeah, the Crucible doesn't descriminate because of you, kid," among other things.

If true, you're suggesting a  few lies of omission on his part.

As for the last part -- why is it so hard to believe that the Catalyst is *not* in complete control of things? Let's go all the way back to ME1. His main channel from dark-space to Milky Way requires little mutated bugs. The Protheans outfoxed the Catalyst/Reapers by re-programming them and they were helpless to override it and retake control of their bugs.

ME2: the Collector Base was not defensible to a single frigate and fire-team of about a dozen. Kind of pathetic.

We've seen time and again that the Reapers are not infalliable. They have weakness. This cycle exploited them.
[/quote]
Beacuse all your quotes bascially state is that the Crucible is a tool and that isn't the issue, the issue is who's using the tool. I have reasons to believe he is in control as I've been outlining both above and below(Vendetta's disappearacnce, the Crucible shutting down, the Reapers being the only ones intrested in hybridization and that being one of the options etc.), there's things that just don't make sense if he's not in control.

I feel he omits them because there's little need for that information. I don't see him as deceitful, simply that you both want the cycles stopped at that point and he needs your help to implement a change, so there's enough cause to work together from his perspective and any other information is trival ("you would not know them and there is not enough time to explain"). He'd probably tell you exactly how the Catalyst factors in to the device if you asked him but you don't, you only ask about the Crucible.

Because the events I see unfold don't make logical sense otherwise. In those two cases we got damned lucky. The protheans only managed to reprogram the bugs because they already had a working backdoor to the citadel before the Reapers invaded. We were only able to attack the collectors because someone else managed to kill a Reaper and we could take it's IFF. And in both cases we were aware of a particular weakness before we could exploit it. No one is aware of any such exploitable weakness in regards to the Catalyst, the Leviathans certainly don't hand you the schematics to the AI at any given point.

[quote]
I seem to remember the Catalyst saying the Reapers are Shepard's to direct as he sees fit.
[/quote]
And also that Shep will loose their connections to their species, TIM seemed to have something else in mind as he went through the trouble of getting himself augmented, it'd be a fairly useless gesture if he initally planned to digitize his mind and body. In all likely hood he was attempting something similar to projet Overlord, and howhow using the Crucible to plug in and dominate the Reapers directly.

[quote]
I never said that.

I figured Vendetta's intended location was going to be that control panel, but Shepard passes out just before it.

I think one of the writers wanted a "devine intervention" kind of a scene there and bypassed Vendetta entirely.
[/quote]
Alright but that doesn't support your original assertion that things are working as intended, quite the opposite.

Hell of a time to use some misplaced symbolism. Granted it wouldn't be the only instance but in this case it leaves the entire following scene to open certain implications.


[quote]
If it could bypass the Keepers, wouldn't it have done it already? Like, right after Battle of the Citadel?
[/quote]
I'm assuming it's because it wasn't awake yet, Soverign failed to take the station and connect to dark space, he was in the process of doing so but was interrupted. The Catalyst remained dormant until the other Reapers took the Citadel at the end of ME3.

[quote]The MEU also contains the concept of instant "hybridization" from organic to synthetic.
[/quote]
Yes but the only time we've seen anyone outside the Reapers attempt such a method was project overlord but even then the idea wasn't wide spread augmentation, and we still lack the motive of anyone outside the Reapers wanting such an option implemented.

[quote]
Yeah I was referring to Reaper-tech, particularly with the Dragon's Teeth.
[/quote]
Which actually is one of the main reasons I have a problem with it being presented as a solution. Literally no one outside of the Reapers has tried to hybridize all life, even the Leviathans state no such intentions, I see no other possible architects of this option.

[quote]
I can give a different example, though: the one just above. It's relevant where synthesis is concerned.
[/quote]
And the problem with it is how such practives were applied then as opposed to now. Neither the Reapers nor anyone else have been shown to be able to hybridize other life froms by shooting beams at them, even on the small scale. The ME universe has established rules that aren't being adhearded to in this case.

[quote]
Sure, we should infer what we're given reason to believe is possible.

We can know that the options come, at least in part, from the Crucible.

I can't say the same for the notion that the Catalyst has a hand in those options. No clearly-stated link, just hunch.
[/quote]
The Crucible being in play was never the issue though, we both agree it contributes something. The Catalyst having a hand is never mentioned but neither is it ever stated to not be the case however.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 25 juin 2013 - 09:42 .

[CronoDragoon]

voteDC wrote...

That would mean that, as you suggest, it would need to be a Leviathan design. That is a very good hypothesis but brings to mind the question of why this wasn't mentioned when Shepard found them and why the Crucible wasn't originally designed to link with the Citadel.

Well, people did point out that the Leviathan proxy gets shifty-eyed when Shepard asks about the Crucible.

As for the Crucible needing to be "retro-fitted" for Citadel use, it's possible that the Crucible was originally designed as nothing more than a gigantic laser weapon of synthetic destruction, and that the Leviathans were able to save the plans after that cycle lost and implement Citadel functionality. Then they planted the updated plans for the new cycle to find, allowing them to remain incognito.

[AlanC9]

Enhanced wrote...
He only says that Shepard is the first organic to stand there. Since the Catalyst lives within the Citadel, standing there wouldn't be a requirement to figure out that he exists. Someone who was able hack into the Citadel, like the Prothean scientists were able to do, would eventually find his programming.

Pretty much this.

It's amazing how many interpretations here rely on getting details wrong.

[KaiserShep]

It's been said at other points in the series that certain parts of the Citadel are unreachable. Heck, they don't even know where the keepers are produced.

[voteDC]

AlanC9 wrote...

Enhanced wrote...
He only says that Shepard is the first organic to stand there. Since the Catalyst lives within the Citadel, standing there wouldn't be a requirement to figure out that he exists. Someone who was able hack into the Citadel, like the Prothean scientists were able to do, would eventually find his programming.

Pretty much this.

It's amazing how many interpretations here rely on getting details wrong.

None of the details I've said are wrong. It is merely interpretation on those facts.

Every detail can be considered to be a plus or minus to the subject of this thread.

[Striker93175]

Just shoot the star brat. Best ending. The cycle continues. Never have to worry if you made the right color choice.

[David7204]

You can't 'hack' into an isolated system.

[AlanC9]

voteDC wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Enhanced wrote...
He only says that Shepard is the first organic to stand there. Since the Catalyst lives within the Citadel, standing there wouldn't be a requirement to figure out that he exists. Someone who was able hack into the Citadel, like the Prothean scientists were able to do, would eventually find his programming.

Pretty much this.

It's amazing how many interpretations here rely on getting details wrong.

None of the details I've said are wrong. It is merely interpretation on those facts.

Every detail can be considered to be a plus or minus to the subject of this thread.

My point was only that going from "first organic to stand there" to "no organic ever knew anything about the Catalyst" isn't  justified. If you want to say that  no organic ever knew anything about the Catalyst you're free to do so, but that line isn't the evidence you need to prove it.

[voteDC]

AlanC9 wrote...

voteDC wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Enhanced wrote...
He only says that Shepard is the first organic to stand there. Since the Catalyst lives within the Citadel, standing there wouldn't be a requirement to figure out that he exists. Someone who was able hack into the Citadel, like the Prothean scientists were able to do, would eventually find his programming.

Pretty much this.

It's amazing how many interpretations here rely on getting details wrong.

None of the details I've said are wrong. It is merely interpretation on those facts.

Every detail can be considered to be a plus or minus to the subject of this thread.

My point was only that going from "first organic to stand there" to "no organic ever knew anything about the Catalyst" isn't  justified. If you want to say that  no organic ever knew anything about the Catalyst you're free to do so, but that line isn't the evidence you need to prove it.

Problem is that you only really get the accept the "first organic to stand there" before anyone played the Lethiathan DLC.

Once you  accept that they have been active participants in more than one cycle, why have they never revealed before that the Citadel was the Catalyst.

At the very least why did they not attempt to persude cycles to destroy the Citadel. After millions of years I think they may have worked out where the AI they created was located.

Modifié par voteDC, 25 juin 2013 - 11:18 .

[Deathsaurer]

Why would they? They insist it's doing exactly what they wanted and they give every indication they're happy to stay hidden until it's done with its task.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

[quote]Greylycantrope wrote...

We proved that on Rannoch when we either created peace or destroyed the geth but the Reaper will state that the battle merely proved his assersions, not ours.[/quote] 

Neither of those are really counterexamples, though, following the Catalyst's assertions. Peace does not preclude the option of later conflict that fulfills the prophecy. Destroying the geth works because they've been stopped from surpassing the quarians. If allowed to surpass their creators, though, then they'd really become a threat we're warned of.

If Shepard allowed the upgrade, but the quarians destroyed the geth, that would a counter-example.

I think if there's any rebuttal to be made to the Catalyst, it's the 'Destroyer getting killed by a Thresher Maw.


[quote]And the organics were working on the Crucible for centuries why is he impressed now? Because we're able to plug it in? The only reason we even have a shot at this is because the Protheans kept our cycle from getting ambushed at the start, after which the galaxy effectively sat on it's as for two years pefore tripping over the Crucible designs on Mars. Our dumb luck and desperation dissproves his earlier assessment?[/quote]

Yes. A plan is meaningless 'til it works in execution. And sometimes it is better to be lucky than to be good!


[quote]How are they about to lose if he can turn it off? You're fleet's the one that's getting wiped out.[/quote]

Its set to cooperate with you if you cooperate with it, and won't if you won't? Or maybe Shepard could have done it at the console with the help of Vendetta, and the Catalyst wanted to say his piece before he/she made a final decision.


[quote]Fairly certain that quote is simply in reference to still having the plans to the device as the Catalyst thought he had destroyed all traces of it right before that line.[/quote]

It is, but the point: they underestimated what we were capable of and it cost them -- both here and otherwise.


[quote][quote]Well what's the point of using it if not galaxy-wide? I doubt it is good for more than one use.[/quote]
And? Machines don't shrug things of as pointless just because we might percieve them that way. If it's built to release energy it'll release energy, whether or not that flows into something useful for the user isn't it's problem it was build for that very purpose. I mean honestly can you imagine an car engine shutting down just because your car was stuck in ice and unable to move forward because it all seemed ineffective?[/quote]

In-world answer: what I said above... it cooperates if you do, doesn't if you don't.

Out-of-world answer: style... they had to do something to distinguish Refusal. Shutting off seems appropriate.


[quote]Beacuse all your quotes bascially state is that the Crucible is a tool and that isn't the issue, the issue is who's using the tool. I have reasons to believe he is in control as I've been outlining both above and below(Vendetta's disappearacnce, the Crucible shutting down, the Reapers being the only ones intrested in hybridization and that being one of the options etc.), there's things that just don't make sense if he's not in control.[/quote]

The quotes don't state that it's a "tool." They state that it's a machine. The difference being: tools need to be used to do work, whereas machines basically do them on their own power. Grant it, manual input is typically needed to get the machine going. Once it's going, though, it does the work itself. Shepard and the Catalyst give the Crucible the input it needs to go -- Shepard picks an option, the Catalyst coordinates the energy beam into the relays -- but the work is the machine's red, green, or blue output. The effects and final result are due to the Crucible's work.


[quote]I feel he omits them because there's little need for that information. I don't see him as deceitful, simply that you both want the cycles stopped at that point and he needs your help to implement a change, so there's enough cause to work together from his perspective and any other information is trival ("you would not know them and there is not enough time to explain"). He'd probably tell you exactly how the Catalyst factors in to the device if you asked him but you don't, you only ask about the Crucible.[/quote]

We're told how the Catalyst is supposed to help, though (to focus the energy), not how the Crucible will.


[quote]Because the events I see unfold don't make logical sense otherwise.[/quote]

I don't think there exists a water-tight explanation for all these things anyway.

You can just about always find plotholes (past half-way into ME1) if you look hard enough.

My idea is to explain as much as can be explained, anyway. It doesn't cover everything, but it does cover a lot.

[quote]In those two cases we got damned lucky. The protheans only managed to reprogram the bugs because they already had a working backdoor to the citadel before the Reapers invaded. We were only able to attack the collectors because someone else managed to kill a Reaper and we could take it's IFF. And in both cases we were aware of a particular weakness before we could exploit it. No one is aware of any such exploitable weakness in regards to the Catalyst, the Leviathans certainly don't hand you the schematics to the AI at any given point.[/quote]

Isn't luck the same thing that explains how we beat them in ME3?

I mean, folks complain about the Crucible, but how convenient is the Derelict Reaper...

So the Reapers are amazingly powerful and cover their tracks impeccably so nobody picks up on their presense and acts to stop them... BUT... we can readily find one of their corpses right when we need their tech, to take them down.

Yayyy! 


[quote][quote]I seem to remember the Catalyst saying the Reapers are Shepard's to direct as he sees fit.[/quote]
And also that Shep will loose their connections to their species, TIM seemed to have something else in mind as he went through the trouble of getting himself augmented, it'd be a fairly useless gesture if he initally planned to digitize his mind and body. In all likely hood he was attempting something similar to projet Overlord, and howhow using the Crucible to plug in and dominate the Reapers directly.[/quote]

Semantics, really. Different means to the same end.


[quote]I'm assuming it's because it wasn't awake yet, Soverign failed to take the station and connect to dark space, he was in the process of doing so but was interrupted. The Catalyst remained dormant until the other Reapers took the Citadel at the end of ME3.[/quote]

If it's not controlling of its own cycle -- not even the single most important aspect of it, the Citadel track, which he himself is attached to -- why are we to believe the Catalyst is controlling and uncontrollable as you've stated? Why would it then have control of the Crucible, something built independently of him? It just feels like you've argued against yourself.


[quote][quote]The MEU also contains the concept of instant "hybridization" from organic to synthetic.[/quote]
Yes but the only time we've seen anyone outside the Reapers attempt such a method was project overlord but even then the idea wasn't wide spread augmentation, and we still lack the motive of anyone outside the Reapers wanting such an option implemented.[/quote]

(I snipped out the next two paragraphs as this addresses all three).

Tell you what, I'll accept these questions with Sync as holes in my interpretation, because they can't be explained with any in-universe material. It is what it is -- a flaw with the ending itself. As I said, my explanation isn't water-tight. Not everything in the story is, either. For everything else, there's MasterCard HYR.

I do have my own hypotheses on this, but not anything I can point to in the story and say: "there it is, explained."


[quote][quote]Sure, we should infer what we're given reason to believe is possible.

We can know that the options come, at least in part, from the Crucible.

I can't say the same for the notion that the Catalyst has a hand in those options. No clearly-stated link, just hunch.
[/quote]
The Crucible being in play was never the issue though, we both agree it contributes something. The Catalyst having a hand is never mentioned but neither is it ever stated to not be the case however.[/quote]

The absense of an explanation is not an affirmation one. That's why I value the evidence in favor of Catalyst control over the choices -- even just partially -- at 0. If nothing is said about it either way, it's as good as no evidence at all. You can't infer off of a lack of info, either. It's also why I reject that interpretation being "as valid" as mine, because it's not like nothing is said to prove my idea right -- there *is* information given that tells us the Crucible is doing work.

Now, this is only because of EC that I can say it. If this were the orignal ending, I'd have nothing to back my claims either. And then at 0 vs. 0, it would be fair to say that what's going on in the scene is anyone's best guess. It's not the case anymore, though. EC was released to make sense of things, and what it added pointed to the Crucible holding the solutions. 'Same can't be said for the Catalyst. He's just... there. Like TIM at the end of ME2 -- he's just there.

[Lady Abstract]

Karlone123 wrote...

You spend that much time on here, you're going to annoy yourself with this stuff. Take a break.

[GreyLycanTrope]

[quote]HYR 2.0 wrote...
Neither of those are really counterexamples, though, following the Catalyst's assertions. Peace does not preclude the option of later conflict that fulfills the prophecy. Destroying the geth works because they've been stopped from surpassing the quarians. If allowed to surpass their creators, though, then they'd really become a threat we're warned of.

If Shepard allowed the upgrade, but the quarians destroyed the geth, that would a counter-example.

I think if there's any rebuttal to be made to the Catalyst, it's the 'Destroyer getting killed by a Thresher Maw.
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Sorry I should have been clearer. "Without our intervention, organics our doomed." He says after his intervention prevented the quarians from winning in the first place. Not to mention regardless of the ourcome with the Quarains and Geth (which happen after the Reaper is already dead) we've managed to stop synthetics that surpassed us. If you're assertion that they become impressed with us because we've shown organics overcoming synthetics that surpass them is correct it should factor in, along with our other vicotries against the Collectors, Soverign, the Tuchanka Reaper (as you've mentioned), we've already shown we can take them on in several scenarios, why is it only when the Crucible is attached that this is finally recognized?

[quote]
Yes. A plan is meaningless 'til it works in execution. And sometimes it is better to be lucky than to be good!
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Not as far as science is concerned. Luck isn't something tangiable that you can factor in to an equation, there is a percent error though and multiple trials to ensure result validity. If he only get results 1/how many times he harvested a galaxy, it's fairly poor basis for dimissing a hypothesis. It's what's known as a false positive. If success is the only measure there's no gurantee organics won't get unluckly at some point and just screw themselves over later, it's the most nonsensical of conclusions.

[quote]
Its set to cooperate with you if you cooperate with it, and won't if you won't? Or maybe Shepard could have done it at the console with the help of Vendetta, and the Catalyst wanted to say his piece before he/she made a final decision.
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That is literally the most flawed sort of control program I've ever heard of. Then why don't we see Vendetta afterwards?
[quote]
In-world answer: what I said above... it cooperates if you do, doesn't if you don't.

Out-of-world answer: style... they had to do something to distinguish Refusal. Shutting off seems appropriate.
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Still the most illogical programing I've ever seen if that's the case.

Style isn't much of a defense, especially when the point of the DLC is clarification, not further contradictions.

[quote]
The quotes don't state that it's a "tool." They state that it's a machine. The difference being: tools need to be used to do work, whereas machines basically do them on their own power. Grant it, manual input is typically needed to get the machine going. Once it's going, though, it does the work itself. Shepard and the Catalyst give the Crucible the input it needs to go -- Shepard picks an option, the Catalyst coordinates the energy beam into the relays -- but the work is the machine's red, green, or blue output. The effects and final result are due to the Crucible's work.
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A machine is a tool from my perspective. At no point do the quotes you provided state this they state the Crucible provides energy, they state the energy can be manipluated before release, it says the Crucible is incapable of targeting the energy it release, they state the device requires manual input from Shepard before activation, that's it. Anything else you're infering.

[quote]
We're told how the Catalyst is supposed to help, though (to focus the energy), not how the Crucible will.
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From the catalyst? he never says exactly how the Catalyst factors in, he just tells you how he came to exist and what his purpose it. All he says about the Crucible is that it releases energy through the Citadel.

[quote]
I don't think there exists a water-tight explanation for all these things anyway.

You can just about always find plotholes (past half-way into ME1) if you look hard enough.

My idea is to explain as much as can be explained, anyway. It doesn't cover everything, but it does cover a lot.
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You're right there isn't, there's holes a plenty, but in this case I find myself scratching my head less if I assume he's running the show, more so if he isn't.

[quote]
Isn't luck the same thing that explains how we beat them in ME3?

I mean, folks complain about the Crucible, but how convenient is the Derelict Reaper...

So the Reapers are amazingly powerful and cover their tracks impeccably so nobody picks up on their presense and acts to stop them... BUT... we can readily find one of their corpses right when we need their tech, to take them down.
[/quote]
It's always been luck, that's what I'm saying. Everytime it's we've gotten an advantage it's been build upon dumb luck of having a previous cycle provide us with an exploit they themselves couldn't use, but in each case we had to know about said exploits to fully utalize them. The derelict Reaper was something we had to work for, even installing the IFF ended up bitting us in the hand before we got things resolved. It's not the only Reaper corpse around, the Leviathan of Dis also counts, the Reapers are only trying to hid the fact that they're still around, their corpses are millions of years old, if anyone discovers them they'll figure the civilization that built the ship is long dead, it's the same line of reasoning they've been using towards the mass relays. In previous cases it's luck that we've built upon. That we've found the Crucible is luck, how exactly did we built upon it in a way that allows us to control an AI we knew nothing about? There is literally nothing to exploit as far as he's concerned.

[quote]
Semantics, really. Different means to the same end.
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Not at all, TIM's Reaper implants are proof enough, as he thought they were needed to fulfill his vision. Shep doesn't need implants to make the solution happen.

[quote]
If it's not controlling of its own cycle -- not even the single most important aspect of it, the Citadel track, which he himself is attached to -- why are we to believe the Catalyst is controlling and uncontrollable as you've stated? Why would it then have control of the Crucible, something built independently of him? It just feels like you've argued against yourself.
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He's uncontrolable since we have yet to see anyone control even a destroyer class Reaper succeccfully, Cereberus tried, what limited success they had was limited to husks and even that was shortlived. The Citadel wasn't build independently of him it was build incorparating him, he's part of it. He appears to be in control since he's the only at the station who could possibly be running the show, the keepers no longer respond to the Reapers and the only way we've seen them have direct control of the stations opperating system was when Soverign directly interfaced with the Persidium. Guess where you are when you encounter the Catalyst? You certainly don't see any cuttle fish in the area either.

[quote]
The absense of an explanation is not an affirmation one. That's why I value the evidence in favor of Catalyst control over the choices -- even just partially -- at 0. If nothing is said about it either way, it's as good as no evidence at all. You can't infer off of a lack of info, either. It's also why I reject that interpretation being "as valid" as mine, because it's not like nothing is said to prove my idea right -- there *is* information given that tells us the Crucible is doing work.

Now, this is only because of EC that I can say it. If this were the orignal ending, I'd have nothing to back my claims either. And then at 0 vs. 0, it would be fair to say that what's going on in the scene is anyone's best guess. It's not the case anymore, though. EC was released to make sense of things, and what it added pointed to the Crucible holding the solutions. 'Same can't be said for the Catalyst. He's just... there. Like TIM at the end of ME2 -- he's just there.
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There is an absense of explanation in both takes on this. All the EC says reguarding the Crucible, it's meant to shoot energy through the Citadel into the relay network, everything else is literally stating how the energy provided by the Crucible can be toyed with before hand, at no point is it stated that the solutions come from it merely that it provides the energy to make them happen. It's still 0 vs 0 like it or not.
TIM doesn't pull a "SO BE IT" if you tell him off though, quite the opposite, he just gets really butthurt.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 26 juin 2013 - 04:02 .

[AlanC9]

voteDC wrote...

Once you  accept that they have been active participants in more than one cycle, why have they never revealed before that the Citadel was the Catalyst.

Maybe they did. We have no knowledge of what they did or didn't do in previous cycles, not even Javik's.

At the very least why did they not attempt to persude cycles to destroy the Citadel. After millions of years I think they may have worked out where the AI they created was located.

Destroying the Citadel wouldn't help. It could very well make things far, far worse. What if the Reapers realized that the cycles don't do anything useful for themselves, and decide to just rule the galaxy forever? They could turn organics' planets into plantations and harvest as needed.