418 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

CrutchCricket wrote...
If someone hands you a gun, technically it's not his choice what ammo you decide to use. But he's still allowing you to use the gun which does give him agency in the firing of the gun (and if he decides to limit you to three ammo types, that's even less of the decision in your control). And if that man is the enemy, how much of a victory is it really if you fire?

The holokid is the enemy. And all plot inconsistencies aside, it is fundamentally unsatisfying to be forced to accept the gun from him and fire it, all on his terms.

It doesn't matter what the Crucible can or cannot do. The holokid has it and is merely allowing us to use it in only the three forms (for all we know there could be more). That makes the choices his. And this alone, before any of the other bull**** and logic failures makes the ending terrible.

Can he choose to not hand you the gun?

[AlanC9]

Bill Casey wrote...

You're Harvey Dent in this analogy...
You're the one buying into the clown's bull****...

Shouldn't be taking this too seriously, but which bull**** is H.Y.R. buying into? The things he's believing all turned out to be simply true as far as I can see.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

CrutchCricket wrote...

All of this is irrelevant.

A gun can fire different types of ammo. That's a function of the gun.

If someone hands you a gun, technically it's not his choice what ammo you decide to use. But he's still allowing you to use the gun which does give him agency in the firing of the gun (and if he decides to limit you to three ammo types, that's even less of the decision in your control). And if that man is the enemy, how much of a victory is it really if you fire?

The holokid is the enemy. And all plot inconsistencies aside, it is fundamentally unsatisfying to be forced to accept the gun from him and fire it, all on his terms.

It doesn't matter what the Crucible can or cannot do. The holokid has it and is merely allowing us to use it in only the three forms (for all we know there could be more). That makes the choices his. And this alone, before any of the other bull**** and logic failures makes the ending terrible.

So it's not a "victory" if the enemy isn't humiliated and/or begging for his life before you kill them?

Sure, I guess, if by "victory" you mean "power-trip."

[Jorji Costava]

@AlanC9:

That could be one of those Frankfurt-style cases; it does seem that the Catalyst does want you to "fire the gun," so to speak, and if not for his so wanting, you wouldn't be able to do it. So your firing the gun might very well be an act that's largely up to him even if he could not choose otherwise.

@HYR 2.0:

It does appear to me that there's plenty of middle ground between "Hero succeeds by dint of his/her own effort," and "Hero forces villain to beg for his life before brutally murdering him."

[Bill Casey]

AlanC9 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

You're Harvey Dent in this analogy...
You're the one buying into the clown's bull****...

Shouldn't be taking this too seriously, but which bull**** is H.Y.R. buying into? The things he's believing all turned out to be simply true as far as I can see.

He's buying into Bioware's ending...
Which is pure bull****...

Bioware says you have to do horrible things or everyone dies...
But they're full of ****...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 20 juin 2013 - 03:29 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

osbornep wrote...

@HYR 2.0:

It does appear to me that there's plenty of middle ground between "Hero succeeds by dint of his/her own effort," and "Hero forces villain to beg for his life before brutally murdering him."

I fail to see how the Catalyst -- telling Shepard what the Crucible can do -- invalidates any effort he/she put in to get it there and use it to stop the Reapers. 'Only way I can think of is if the player wanted to feel a sense of vengence over the enemy.

[KaiserShep]

While I agree that all the options suck (to varying degrees depending on you) I'm inclined to agree with a lot of the OP's points. Problem is, however, that they wrote Refuse in such a way that it seems to contradict itself. What does Shepard mean "on our terms" when he/she insists on not using the Crucible at all? So did the Catalyst get hijacked by the Crucible, or didn't it? If the Catalyst is now overridden by the Crucible's docking into the Citadel core, wouldn't picking an option technically be on our terms? I guess another problem is that this override seems to be pretty limited.

"The Crucible changed me."

"OK, so can I like...just tell you to stop reaping?"

".......no."

It's all a crock, but what the hell. Pick your medicine (POISON) and be done with it, or let everyone die. Either way, no matter how much logic we try to apply to all of this, how many details we pick apart, the sad reality is that the ending leaves a strange feeling of emptiness, even when it's extended in an attempt to make everything look happy.

[CrutchCricket]

AlanC9 wrote...
Can he choose to not hand you the gun?

Yes- he can turn it off.

HYR 2.0 wrote...
So it's not a "victory" if the enemy isn't humiliated and/or begging for his life before you kill them?

Sure, I guess, if by "victory" you mean "power-trip."

Was Sovereign humiliated or begging for his life? Were the Collectors?

Those were victories.

[KaiserShep]

Eh, I figured that Shepard's refusal removes the variable and it's back to business.

[Bill Casey]

KaiserShep wrote...

Pick your medicine (POISON) and be done with it, or let everyone die.

Or reject the ending and its premise entirely...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 20 juin 2013 - 03:48 .

[Jorji Costava]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

osbornep wrote...

@HYR 2.0:

It does appear to me that there's plenty of middle ground between "Hero succeeds by dint of his/her own effort," and "Hero forces villain to beg for his life before brutally murdering him."

I fail to see how the Catalyst -- telling Shepard what the Crucible can do -- invalidates any effort he/she put in to get it there and use it to stop the Reapers. 'Only way I can think of is if the player wanted to feel a sense of vengence over the enemy.

Well, this isn't good; I promised myself I wouldn't get dragged into another ending thread. Let me just leave it at this: The issue is that the Catalyst wants you to use the Crucible, and if not for the Catalyst wanting you to do so, you wouldn't be able to do it. So the scenario has a decidedly Se7en-esque feel; Detective David Mills clearly does not 'defeat' the killer in any sense, and Shepard's victory over the catalyst is clouded in this sort of ambiguity. I wouldn't necessarily say that this is the only or even the key issue with the ending, but it's something, anyway.

[KaiserShep]

Bill Casey wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

Pick your medicine (POISON) and be done with it, or let everyone die.

Or reject the ending and its premise entirely...

Is this an option available in the dialogue tree?

[AlanC9]

osbornep wrote...

@AlanC9:

That could be one of those Frankfurt-style cases; it does seem that the Catalyst does want you to "fire the gun," so to speak, and if not for his so wanting, you wouldn't be able to do it. So your firing the gun might very well be an act that's largely up to him even if he could not choose otherwise.

I must have missed something upthread; what's a Frankfurt-style case?

[AlanC9]

CrutchCricket wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Can he choose to not hand you the gun?

Yes- he can turn it off.

Only if you've already declared you won't use it anyway.

[AlanC9]

Bill Casey wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

You're Harvey Dent in this analogy...
You're the one buying into the clown's bull****...

Shouldn't be taking this too seriously, but which bull**** is H.Y.R. buying into? The things he's believing all turned out to be simply true as far as I can see.

He's buying into Bioware's ending...
Which is pure bull****...

Bioware says you have to do horrible things or everyone dies...
But they're full of ****...

You mean they're being mean to you and shouldn't be allowed to set up their universe like that?

[Jorji Costava]

Oops! That's just me moving a bit too quickly. In 1969, Harry Frankfurt wrote a paper called "Alternate Possibilities and Moral Responsibility" in which he produced some examples where a subject has no alternative but to act as he does, yet intuitively, seems responsible for his act.

Paraphrasing from the paper, suppose Black wants Jones to perform some morally questionable deed, and wants Jones to perform this deed so badly he has taken the measure of implanting a microchip in Jones' brain, a chip which Jones knows nothing of. Black can monitor Jones' thought processes to a precise degree so that Black will be able to know if Jones will not choose to do the deed prior to Jones' choice. The chip also enables Black to manipulate Jones' actions if Black so chooses. Thus, Jones literally cannot do otherwise.

But as it happens, Jones does the deed simply because he wants to, and Black's intervention is never needed. It seems that Jones acted freely and is responsible for his act, even though he couldn't do otherwise. If you Google the paper, I'm sure it'll come up.

EDIT: Fixed spelling.

Modifié par osbornep, 20 juin 2013 - 04:04 .

[Bill Casey]

AlanC9 wrote...

You mean they're being mean to you and shouldn't be allowed to set up their universe like that?

No, I mean they are fundamentally wrong...
Their entire ending is a false set of choices...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 20 juin 2013 - 04:07 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Was Sovereign humiliated or begging for his life? Were the Collectors?

Those were victories.

Only difference I'm seeing -- between those and this -- is that the Catalyst concedes imminent defeat.

Other than that, nothing.

And that's enough to spoil the sense of "victory" - ?

osbornep wrote...

Well, this isn't good; I promised myself I wouldn't get dragged into another ending thread. Let me just leave
it at this: The issue is that the Catalyst wants you to use the Crucible, and if not for the Catalyst wanting you to do so, you wouldn't be able to do it.

I'm not convinced. I believe the Crucible activated that elevator to the Catalyst's chamber (in Low-EMS runs, he asks "Why are you here?") and that Shepard could figure it out himself (Catalyst doesn't actually tell him how to activate the options).

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 20 juin 2013 - 04:33 .

[Wolfva2]

Bill Casey wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

You're Harvey Dent in this analogy...
You're the one buying into the clown's bull****...

Shouldn't be taking this too seriously, but which bull**** is H.Y.R. buying into? The things he's believing all turned out to be simply true as far as I can see.

He's buying into Bioware's ending...
Which is pure bull****...

Bioware says you have to do horrible things or everyone dies...
But they're full of ****...

Yes, that's exactly what theyr'e saying because THEY WROTE THE STORY.  Don't like it?  Delete it from your computer and walk away.  Because YOU don't get to tell OTHER PEOPLE how to write a story.  

Sheesh.   I really do not understand people like you.  Scenario:  Giant sentient creatures are harvesting all spacefaring life in the galaxy.  Solution?  You can destroy them.  You can control them.  You can become them.  "NOOOO!"  you scream.  "That's not RIIIIGHT!!!!!  That's not POSSSSIBBBBBLEEE!"  Well, THOSE are the decisions you have.  The Crucible is designed to do ONLY one of those three things.  Sadly, it was not designed by the Walt Disney Co.  You can't discuss it's feelings, at which point it'll decide it was wrong all along and will now work to bring happiness and sunshine to the galaxy.  You can't turn them into Care Bears (even IF Harbinger has one hell of a care bear stare....). 

The Catalyst is just an instruction manuel.  BW COULD have done that, you know.  You're sitting there next to Anderson... 
Anderson:  "Shepard....the crucible....it's...not firing...."  
Shepard:  "Crap...knew I should have...read the instructions...."
<Shepard opens book:  "Thank you for purchasing your brand new Crucible 2000!  Now with TWICE the Reaper crushing power!  To destroy all reapers, press  1.  To Controll all reapers, press 2.  To become one with the reapers, press 3.  And remember, ALWAYS wear your safety goggles!"
Shepard:  "Oh.  So that's what I got to do.  Huh.  Well, sure glad some computer AI didn't form a hologram based on some kid I watched die."

At which point, for the next 13 months, YOU would be on the forums whining about how evil BW is for making you have to chose and yadda yadda yadda.

[DirtyPhoenix]

Bill Casey wrote...

You lose in every ending unless you're a goddamn sociopath...

I love being a sociopath...

[AlanC9]

Bill Casey wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

You mean they're being mean to you and shouldn't be allowed to set up their universe like that?

No, I mean they are fundamentally wrong...
Their entire ending is a false set of choices...

What do you mean by "false"? 

[DirtyPhoenix]

Bill Casey wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

You're Harvey Dent in this analogy...
You're the one buying into the clown's bull****...

Shouldn't be taking this too seriously, but which bull**** is H.Y.R. buying into? The things he's believing all turned out to be simply true as far as I can see.

He's buying into Bioware's ending...
Which is pure bull****...

Bioware says you have to do horrible things or everyone dies...
But they're full of ****...

 You mean he made the cardinal sin of playing the game till the end in the form the developers meant it to be? Yeah, how could he!!!

*Udina voice* THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE

[Aarch_Aangel]

pirate1802 wrote...

 You mean he made the cardinal sin of playing the game till the end in the form the developers meant it to be? Yeah, how could he!!!

*Udina voice* THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE

Udina knows what's up.

[CrutchCricket]

AlanC9 wrote...
Only if you've already declared you won't use it anyway.

Irrelevant. What matters is he can stop you, even if he chooses not to, unless you refuse to play his game.

HYR 2.0 wrote...
Only difference I'm seeing -- between those and this -- is that the Catalyst concedes imminent defeat.

No. Victory over Sovereign and the Collectors came through the direct actions of Shepard and allies. Through their will and power they seized it and carried it through to the end.

Here, Shepard did not seize victory. It was handed to him by the enemy, on the enemy's terms.

He's no better than Breen was in HL2. From an in-world perspective, I wouldn't condemn either character's actions with these impossible odds (some survival must be better than none). But you'll excuse me if I don't jump for joy at the thought of playing Half-Life: Breen's Surrender. Or in this case Mass Effect: We Almost Made It But Had To Fold.

[CronoDragoon]

There's no reason to believe the cycles would have created Synthesis. Synthesis is a direct answer to the Catalyst's problem, and therefore in order to design the Crucible to work this way, they would have had to know that Synthesis would stop the Reaper cycle. The only way to know this is having spoken to the Catalyst somehow, followed by being able to design a Crucible dispersal method to achieve Synthesis. This seems highly unlikely as an assumption, and has very little if any in-game support to make this a reasonable guess about how Synthesis is generated.

Destroy seems likely the original function of the Crucible, though, since the Catalyst says that synthetics will be targeted because "the Crucible will not discriminate." It would be interesting to know if Destroy was designed that way on purpose by the first cycle in order to stop both the Reapers and their synthetic thralls (which presumably fell under Reaper control similar to the geth). Since it seems our cycle is unique in organic/synthetic relations, previous cycles after the first cycle likely had no real motivation (or perhaps lacked the knowledge) to alter Destroy to just the Reapers.

The more likely answer is somewhere between the two extremes: the Crucible is an energy source, but the Catalyst has no choice but to present you with all the possible methods of dispersal. They are his choices insofar as he makes you aware of their possibility, and must ready the Citadel and relay network to accomodate your choice, but they aren't his choices in that clearly only one of them he thinks will work.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 20 juin 2013 - 05:04 .