418 réponses à ce sujet

[o Ventus]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

And to preemptively respond to the two obvious responses...

"The Crucible is just a battery!"

No, it isn't. He calls it a "power source," which is a very broad term. One can accurately call anything from a battery to a nuclear weapon a "power source."

Then his statement is hollow and had no reason being said. If we're going this route, anything that contains even the tracest amount of energy is a power source. "Power source", to any average person, will almost certainly mean "battery". That's literally what a battery is, is something that provides energy for something else to function. Regardless of what the Crucible "is", it's a battery.

So it isn't a battery, it's just a battery.

That wasn't all he said, either. He also said (in the sentience immediately following it) that it is "adaptive in its design" -- meaning it can take on alternative functions (may not be the case in Low-EMS, however).

Welp, I didn't upgrade my Turian 7th Fleet, looks like I can't destroy the Reapers without incinerating the galaxy. That lone turian cruiser was the turning point.

Game mechanics aside, how would EMS have any bearing whatsoever on the Crucible's ability to function? By this, I don't mean in the sense that EMS = Ships = Crucible defense. If the Reapers (whose main guns have a payload in the multi-hundreds) were to hit a spot of the Crucible (that shed the hard armor casing, as seen in the cutscene by this point) that was so vital as to determine the amount of energy being channeled and shield of change that energy in any way, then the Crucible wouldn't even be functioning when it docked.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Okay, it's rant time...

I do not accept people telling me how to think. It is a fundamental freedom of mine to believe what I believe, and anyone trying to attack me for my beliefs is going to get met with the angry hammer of my rhetoric. Ideologues are, IMO, the worst people in the world. History proves it. The worst people to ever live were rigid moralists who believed themselves "above" others.

I think, therefore I am. I have my own opinions. I'm entitled to them. I can agree or disagree with those of others, as well. I will speak my mind on things, but in the end, I will also accept that there will always be two sides to an opinion.

You do not know my beliefs. You do not know my motives. You are out-of-line for trying to slam me or others for them.

Good day, sir.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 20 juin 2013 - 05:04 .

[Ticonderoga117]

We do not have the technology to build a device that can fundamentally change the fabric of life in the entire Galaxy. Since we do not have this technology, and "simple, easy to read plans" would not be able to allow us to do this, these are thus not functions of the Crucible. These are from the Catalyst.

They are "his" choices and we are forced into them lest the baby AI gets pouty and goes on yet another killing spree.

[AlanC9]

CrutchCricket wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Only if you've already declared you won't use it anyway.

Irrelevant. What matters is he can stop you, even if he chooses not to, unless you refuse to play his game.

I don't think he can choose not to in the first place. If he had different programming, maybe,

[Jorji Costava]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

I'm not convinced. I believe the Crucible activated that elevator to the Catalyst's chamber (in Low-EMS runs, he asks "Why are you here?") and that Shepard could figure it out himself (Catalyst doesn't actually tell him how to activate the options).

Well, the mechanisms by which the crucible activates aren't intuitive (i.e. jumping into a beam of light, damaging equipment, etc.); in one case, the Catalyst does give explicit instructions ("Add your energy to the Crucible"). If the Catalyst weren't there, Shepard would probably end up choosing Control by default, since that's the only thing that looks like an actual control mechanism.

But more to the point, it's pretty clear the Catalyst wants you to use the Crucible, simply because using it solves his problem as well as yours, as pointed out in the OP. The fact that you're fulfilling its agenda is what gives the scene its Se7en-like quality; typically when you beat the bad guys, you're frustrating their goals rather than accomplishing them.

[o Ventus]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

We do not have the technology to build a device that can fundamentally change the fabric of life in the entire Galaxy. Since we do not have this technology, and "simple, easy to read plans" would not be able to allow us to do this, these are thus not functions of the Crucible. These are from the Catalyst.

Considering that if you take potentially hundreds of the brightest minds the the entire known galaxy and have them all working on it, you would figure that at least one of them might catch on to what the "simple, easy to read plans" are detailing. For all of the claims by Hackett and Liara saying "these blueprints are massive, yet simple", not a single f**king person knows what anything is. Calling something "simple" implies a level of knowledge about the subject. Someone whose never played chess won't spectate one of Viswanathan Anand's championship matches and go "yeah, looks easy".

One doesn't need to be a chemist to know that flint + tinder + spark = fire.

Modifié par o Ventus, 20 juin 2013 - 05:14 .

[Ticonderoga117]

o Ventus wrote...
Considering that if you take potentially hundreds of the brightest minds the the entire known galaxy and have them all working on it, you would figure that at least one of them might catch on to what the "simple, easy to read plans" are detailing.

One doesn't need to be a chemist to know that flint + tinder + spark = fire.

And usually there are notes in plans, or code, to help people figure out what's going on. While this may not apply to things like, oh, normal everyday items, I would like to think that people working on a device to save the entire galaxy would be more helpful, especially if they aim to pass the plans down.

[AlanC9]

o Ventus wrote...

Game mechanics aside, how would EMS have any bearing whatsoever on the Crucible's ability to function? By this, I don't mean in the sense that EMS = Ships = Crucible defense. If the Reapers (whose main guns have a payload in the multi-hundreds) were to hit a spot of the Crucible (that shed the hard armor casing, as seen in the cutscene by this point) that was so vital as to determine the amount of energy being channeled and shield of change that energy in any way, then the Crucible wouldn't even be functioning when it docked.

Really? Devices are always either 100% functional or completely nonfunctional? News to my vidcard; it's technically functional but artifacts all over the place if I put any load on it.

[AlanC9]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

And usually there are notes in plans, or code, to help people figure out what's going on. While this may not apply to things like, oh, normal everyday items, I would like to think that people working on a device to save the entire galaxy would be more helpful, especially if they aim to pass the plans down.

Yep. Shepard doesn't have that part of the plans, though maybe TIM did.

[AlanC9]

osbornep wrote...


But more to the point, it's pretty clear the Catalyst wants you to use the Crucible, simply because using it solves his problem as well as yours, as pointed out in the OP. The fact that you're fulfilling its agenda is what gives the scene its Se7en-like quality; typically when you beat the bad guys, you're frustrating their goals rather than accomplishing them.

Destroy solves his problem? I don't see how it does, and he says it doesn't.

[o Ventus]

AlanC9 wrote...

Really? Devices are always either 100% functional or completely nonfunctional? News to my vidcard; it's technically functional but artifacts all over the place if I put any load on it.

1. Way to ignore my actual statement and just ask another question in lieu of a response.

2. Hackett himself says the Crucible is ready for use. 

3. Unless that team of Hawking-level scientists really half-assed their jobs, one could reasonably expect the Crucible to perform its function (assuming it wasn't a giant dud).

[MrFob]

The way BW wanted this interpreted was that - if you don't have enough EMS - the crucible gets badly damaged during flight/the docking procedure. Therefore, it is no longer able to perform all it's functions.
The EC visualizes this by giving us a new video for the crucible docking when EMS is low. We actually see the crucible taking fire and I believe the Catalyst even mentions damage in the EC.

[Bill Casey]

Wolfva2 wrote...

Yes, that's exactly what theyr'e saying because THEY WROTE THE STORY.  Don't like it?  Delete it from your computer and walk away.  Because YOU don't get to tell OTHER PEOPLE how to write a story.

Actually I do...

[txgoldrush]

Wow...people are not getting it.

Destroy and Control are triggered by Shepard interacting with the Catalyst's AI core and Shepard's body is the trigger for Synthesis HOWEVER in order to enact these solutions, an object of great power has to be used in conjunction. Nevermind its defined the Citadel being an energy amplifier and a mass relay controller.

However, without the Crucible, there is no solution. The choices are not the Catalyst's, they are what the situation brings about.

He also can tell you he is bound by the decisions the Crucible provides just as Shepard is.

So FOUR factors are in the ending and ALL are necessary to enact change......The Crucible, The Catalyst, The Citadel, and Shepard and his hybrid nature....here is where the beginning of ME2 plays a huge role.

[Ticonderoga117]

AlanC9 wrote...

Yep. Shepard doesn't have that part of the plans, though maybe TIM did.

Perhaps, but even still, if we can build it, we must know what it does. Or at least have a good idea.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

o Ventus wrote...

Then his statement is hollow and had no reason being said. If we're going this route, anything that contains even the tracest amount of energy is a power source.

That's the point...

"Power source", to any average person, will almost certainly mean "battery". That's literally what a battery is, is something that provides energy for something else to function. Regardless of what the Crucible "is", it's a battery.

So it isn't a battery, it's just a battery.

If it was just a battery, the device would not be a mystery to everyone building it -- engineers probably recgonize something as simple as a battery when they see it. More likely, they (the writers) gave it that broad description of "power source" to keep the mystery device.... mysterious, and, open to the broad range of possibilities as to what it does.

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

We do not have the technology to
build a device that can fundamentally change the fabric of life in the
entire Galaxy. Since we do not have this technology, and "simple, easy
to read plans" would not be able to allow us to do this, these are thus
not functions of the Crucible. These are from the Catalyst.

They are "his" choices and we are forced into them lest the baby AI gets pouty and goes on yet another killing spree.

Despite all the evidence to the contrary?

Your post boils down to "I don't believe it."

... which is irrelevant. Say you didn't believe the mass-effect phenomenon, it would still be fact within the lore.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 20 juin 2013 - 05:27 .

[Ticonderoga117]

txgoldrush wrote...

Wow...people are not getting it.

Destroy and Control are triggered by Shepard interacting with the Catalyst's AI core and Shepard's body is the trigger for Synthesis HOWEVER in order to enact these solutions, an object of great power has to be used in conjunction. Nevermind its defined the Citadel being an energy amplifier and a mass relay controller.

However, without the Crucible, there is no solution. The choices are not the Catalyst's, they are what the situation brings about.

He also can tell you he is bound by the decisions the Crucible provides just as Shepard is.

So FOUR factors are in the ending and ALL are necessary to enact change......The Crucible, The Catalyst, The Citadel, and Shepard and his hybrid nature....here is where the beginning of ME2 plays a huge role.

Well of course without the Crucible there is no "solution", because there isn't enough power.

How is Shepard's nature a factor? Husks are closer to what Synthesis does, throw one of them in.

Object of great power? What the hell is this? Magic in the land of Dungeons and Dragons?

Why can't Shep just tell StarBrat what to do? Oh right, bull**** symbolism or somethign equally vague and stupid. 

[Jorji Costava]

AlanC9 wrote...

osbornep wrote...


But more to the point, it's pretty clear the Catalyst wants you to use the Crucible, simply because using it solves his problem as well as yours, as pointed out in the OP. The fact that you're fulfilling its agenda is what gives the scene its Se7en-like quality; typically when you beat the bad guys, you're frustrating their goals rather than accomplishing them.

Destroy solves his problem? I don't see how it does, and he says it doesn't.

If what we're talking about is how the scene feels, tonally and thematically, then Destroy is hardly a repudiation of the Catalyst and his agenda; very much the opposite. So we're going to prove that synthetics and organics can co-exist by wiping out all synthetics? If destroy is about repudiating the catalyst, then surely that's the wrong way to structure things, from a writing point of view. I've argued before that thematically, destroy is the brute-force solution to the singularity; you wipe out synthetics now and take your chances that organics won't be dumb enough to make them again in the future. But the extent to which Destroy represents a rejection of the catalyst doesn't go any deeper than this.

/night

[Ticonderoga117]

HYR 2.0 wrote...
Despite all the evidence to the contrary?

Your post boils down to "I don't believe it."

... which is irrelevant. Say you didn't believe the mass-effect phenomenon, it would still be fact within the lore.

The entire ME'verse is evidence to the fact that there isn't the technology to change the fabric of all organic life at the snap of a finger. The closest the universe there comes is the Reapers with Husks, and even then that's on a person by person basis through nanites introduced via dragon's teeth. Cerberus managed it once at great cost and time.

If they could do Synthesis, Shepard would've been back in under a month at a very low cost.

The Crucible is the device that doesn't fit.

[txgoldrush]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Wow...people are not getting it.

Destroy and Control are triggered by Shepard interacting with the Catalyst's AI core and Shepard's body is the trigger for Synthesis HOWEVER in order to enact these solutions, an object of great power has to be used in conjunction. Nevermind its defined the Citadel being an energy amplifier and a mass relay controller.

However, without the Crucible, there is no solution. The choices are not the Catalyst's, they are what the situation brings about.

He also can tell you he is bound by the decisions the Crucible provides just as Shepard is.

So FOUR factors are in the ending and ALL are necessary to enact change......The Crucible, The Catalyst, The Citadel, and Shepard and his hybrid nature....here is where the beginning of ME2 plays a huge role.

Well of course without the Crucible there is no "solution", because there isn't enough power.

How is Shepard's nature a factor? Husks are closer to what Synthesis does, throw one of them in.

Object of great power? What the hell is this? Magic in the land of Dungeons and Dragons?

Why can't Shep just tell StarBrat what to do? Oh right, bull**** symbolism or somethign equally vague and stupid. 

Synthesis...Shepard proves to the Catalyst that organics are "ready". His organic/synthetic nature also can explain how he can seize control of the Reapers. He can go into AI's and access them and he did this twice in the series.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

The entire ME'verse is evidence to the fact that there isn't the technology to change the fabric of all organic life at the snap of a finger. The closest the universe there comes is the Reapers with Husks, and even then that's on a person by person basis through nanites introduced via dragon's teeth. Cerberus managed it once at great cost and time.

If they could do Synthesis, Shepard would've been back in under a month at a very low cost.

The Crucible is the device that doesn't fit.

Or maybe Project Crucible > Project Lazarus.

[Ticonderoga117]

txgoldrush wrote...
Synthesis...Shepard proves to the Catalyst that organics are "ready". His organic/synthetic nature also can explain how he can seize control of the Reapers. He can go into AI's and access them and he did this twice in the series.

Ready how? Because we are mentally prepared for said change? That doesn't work because Shepard is an extreme case. He's one cyborg among billions of lifeforms of different species. And again, there are husks of every species.

And ok, he has that special link. True. But it's not needed. The kid controls the Reapers. He's ready for an organic to take command. Why not just take verbal orders? Orders like "Stop firing" and "Fly into a star on the edge of the Galaxy" are rather simple concepts with little room for vagueness. Even using your own point, there's no reason for Shepard to vaporize himself. Just use a link that the Geth have. Hell, I'm sure the Reapers could make it better!

[Ticonderoga117]

HYR 2.0 wrote...
Or maybe Project Crucible > Project Lazarus.

But here's the thing.

Project Lazarus did one man, after two years, and enough money to make TIM pull his belt a lot tighter.

Project Crucible did the entire galaxy, in a few seconds, using a device built in like 3 months while a galaxy wide war was going on.

I think the Crucible goes WAY beyond anything you can reasonably expect from the Galaxy at this point. So many magnitudes of difference between the two.

And I doubt the other cycles did much better, since Sovereign was there to monitor them to keep the tech levels about the same.

[liggy002]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 they are  "decrees forced down upon you by the evil, meglomaniacal warlord Reaper-AI dictator of the galaxy and his racist Nazi agenda."

Fixed that for you.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

But here's the thing.

Project Lazarus did one man, after two years, and enough money to make TIM pull his belt a lot tighter.

Project Crucible did the entire galaxy, in a few seconds, using a device built in like 3 months while a galaxy wide war was going on.

I think the Crucible goes WAY beyond anything you can reasonably expect from the Galaxy at this point. So many magnitudes of difference between the two.

And I doubt the other cycles did much better, since Sovereign was there to monitor them to keep the tech levels about the same.

The way I was looking at it was this: a small team at Cerberus basically engineered a miracle procedure in a couple years with the help of one rich guy and his financial backers, so the whole galaxy coming together and pouring just about all their resources into the Crucible device means we're looking at something even bigger than 'Lazarus.

The Crucible only really takes effort to believe with Sync. Other two? Not real far-fetched.

liggy002 wrote...

[*abomination*]

Fixed that for you.

 "I don't have time to deal with sore-losers."

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 20 juin 2013 - 06:03 .