418 réponses à ce sujet

[Dextro Milk]

David7204 wrote...

Besides, that raises a huge issue. If the Leviathans knew about the Crucible, why wouldn't they have tried to build it themselves between cycles?

Because they are selfish meany heads.

Tbh, why would they need to? They can hide in teh water all day.

Modifié par Dextro Milk, 20 juin 2013 - 02:41 .

[KaiserShep]

I got the impression that the Leviathan just didn't have the capacity to hold thralls like they used to, and trying to manage a much larger number would put them at considerable risk. It seemed to me that they were more intent on hiding forever and observing each cycle come and go, evading the reapers. Problem for the Leviathan, as I see it, is that the reapers' construction of the mass relay network now means that the other species will develop too quickly for them to control in force. If they attempted to take enough people to build things for them, this puts them in danger of being discovered and fought against. A species like the Turians, or Krogan, would be pretty intent on wiping out the remainder of the Leviathan. The Protheans would definitely be enthusiastic, and there's not much the Leviathan can do about it. Aside from that, trying to establish a thrall force to any significant degree would also put them in danger of being found out by the reapers, so they have two things to worry about. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 20 juin 2013 - 02:48 .

[AlanC9]

KaiserShep wrote...
I agree that it's stupid, but the thing is, if all Shepard had to do was use conventional controls, how would any of that crazy stuff that happens go down in the first place? 

Not too hard to preserve the original choices  if you really want to. 

Shepard gets to the Citadel, beats TIM, and finds the operating manual for the Crucible, or the Catalyst, or an open channel to EDI, or whatever exposition mechanism you want. Turns out it's a Synthesis device snd always was. TIM brought his Horizon gadgetry to the Citadel, and he's added a Control button. For Destroy, Shepard finds out that if you break the part of the system that scans and rewrites organics, it results in synthetics being overwritten with null data and thus destroyed.

You could even pitch this as one of those Bio fake choices where Destroy looks risky but really isn't.

Modifié par AlanC9, 20 juin 2013 - 04:04 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Effective forum posting = read more, post less.

All the responses I'm about to make are ones I've already made, somewhere ITT.

Does it kill ya guys to scroll down?? Here we go...


[quote]KiwiQuiche wrote...

Yeah, those are all the Crucible functions. Totally Crucible only. That's why the scientists figured it out when they were building the thing from scratch and why the options/Choices were on the Crucible not the Citadel.

Oh no wait, that didn't happen.[/quote]


1.) [quote]HYR 2.0 wrote...

They did know. Post-Coup, Hackett says they're convinced it will stop the Reapers through energy dispersal.

They were mostly right.

The whole "we don't know what it will do" was just hype, played up to create suspense. It's the ME3 version of ME2's "oh noez it's a suicide mission, everyone's gonna die!"[/quote]

& FYI -- they did not build it from scratch. It was mostly already built.


2.) [quote]HYR 2.0 wrote...

2.) Pic: Crucible/Decision Chamber Design Explained.

Consider this a response to the aforementioned "looks like"-nonsense.



Kudos to whoever made that. It definitely helped me better understand things with the ending. Generally speaking, the ending in general makes a lot more sense if you treat the options as Crucible outcomes, not the Catalyst's options (refer back to quote #2 and my notes on it in the above quotes section). If an explanation does not make sense, don't hold on to it because of "looks like" and "sounds like"-nonsense; discard it and search for a more sensible one.[/quote]


[quote]Samtheman63 wrote...

he also says the crucible is merely a power source[/quote]

[quote]HYR 2.0 wrote...

And to preemptively respond to the two obvious responses...

"The Crucible is just a battery!"

No, it isn't. He calls it a "power source," which is a very broad term. One can accurately call anything from a battery to a nuclear weapon a "power source." That wasn't all he said, either. He also said (in the sentience immediately following it) that it is "adaptive in its design" -- meaning it can take on alternative functions (may not be the case in Low-EMS, however). Going hand-in-hand with that, the quotes above re-affirm the notion that the Crucible's energy can be released in ways that have different effects.[/quote]

&

[quote]HYR 2.0 wrote...

[quote]o Ventus wrote...

Then his statement is hollow and had no reason being said. If we're going this route, anything that contains even the tracest amount of energy is a power source.[/quote]

That's the point...

[quote]"Power source", to any average person, will almost certainly mean "battery". That's literally what a battery is, is something that provides energy for something else to function. Regardless of what the Crucible "is", it's a battery.

So it isn't a battery, it's just a battery.[/quote]

If it was just a battery, the device would not be a mystery to everyone building it -- engineers probably recgonize something as simple as a battery when they see it. More likely, they (the writers) gave it that broad description of "power source" to keep the mystery device.... mysterious, and, open to the broad range of possibilities as to what it does.[/quote]


[quote]iakus wrote...

[quote]Dubozz wrote...

[quote]Bill Casey wrote...

It changes everything...
You can't win...

You lose in every ending unless you're a goddamn sociopath...
[/quote]
me3 ending in a nutshell

[/quote]

That[/quote]


(@ both of you)


[quote]HYR 2.0 wrote...

[quote]Bill Casey wrote...

The Catalyst is giving the ultimatum...
Use the Crucible or I kill you and everything you've ever loved...[/quote]


Using the Crucible or dying was understood long before the Catalyst entered the picture.

Also, the Catalyst couldn't make any of the options take place -- not even his clear favorite, if unlocked.

Have a seat.[/quote]

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Yeah, uh-huh, no input from him whatsoever, right, sure.

Why the Citadel is being used in the first place is because the Crucible is not sufficiently powerful enough to dispense the its energy throughout the galaxy to affect all Reapers (whom would naturally be spread throughout the galaxy in any given cycle). The Citadel compensates for this by utilizing the Citadel, the relay master-control unit, by sending the blast into the relays and thus spread it through the relay-connected galaxy. We know this because Vendetta says it.

Thing is, the Citadel doesn't have a mind of its own to coordinate the desired targetting. Enter the Catalyst.

Again, revisit the quotes. Everything he says goes down the lines of, "you can use the Crucible's energy to _____."

One of the choices just happens to coincide with a solution he was trying to achieve in the first place because someone got lucky and guessed the problem the Reapers were trying to solve, and than had the technological know how to achieve something even the Reapers(the most advanced race in the galaxy) couldn't using their own technology and an adaptive Duracell. Yeah I'm convinced.

1.) Read the OP; 2.) Read the OP; 3.) Read the OP.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 20 juin 2013 - 04:34 .

[Mordanticus]

Yestare7 wrote...


You'll still get a waffle for all that hard work!!

See.. and this is exactly why the synthesis choice is horrifying.. Poor waffle..

Hold the Line.. For Life..

[Maxster_]

Wolfva2 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Wolfva2 wrote...

Yes, that's exactly what theyr'e saying because THEY WROTE THE STORY.  Don't like it?  Delete it from your computer and walk away.  Because YOU don't get to tell OTHER PEOPLE how to write a story.

Actually I do...

Well.  Ok.  Sure, you get to tell people how to write a story, or what to do.  Same as you get to shout at the sun, "DON"T EFFING RISE DAGNABBIT!"  We'll all do the exact same thing as the sun and simply ignore your childish temper tantrum as you stomp your feet and scream that the world should be what YOU want it to be instead of what it IS.

Have fun in your impotence!

Critique about how to write a story, and critique about story's quality - is not the same thing.
Valid critique about how to write a story, could come only from an writer.
On the other hand, valid critique about story's quality - can come from anyone.

And yes, ME3's story is pure crap, it's quality very low, lower than even ME2(which is pretty low).
Deal with it.

[Maxster_]

naes1984 wrote...

No. I'll keep whining. And the Crucible isn't the only serious problem with the game's story and logic within its own universe for example:
1. Cerberus going from a terrorist organization of 150 agents organized in task oriented cells to being the largest (and best equipped) military in the universe within a span of 6-12 months. Having to spend half your time fighting Cerberus was a huge miscalculation and bogs down the story.
2. The first two games pound into your head that the Reapers can't be allowed to invade from Dark Space or else it is over. The logical story solution for ME3 would have been figuring out a way to permanently prevent the Reapers from returning from dark space which the codex says is the only time Reapers are vulnerable. So what do they do? Have the Reapers invade from dark space , wipe out the Batarians (conveniently getting rid of that story thread) and occupy Earth to give us an "emotional" connection and give us a Michael Bay movie. The only writing solution then becomes a magical "I-win" Prothean superweapon. It is a classic example of writing one's self into a corner. The Crucible is just a small part of that larger problem.
3. There is absolutely no attempt to prove the Reaper's existence to the council. It's not as if you have mountains of data and connections to prove it, testimony from your crew (including an asari justicar... a person the asari counselor would have to believe, and a former member of STG) or anything like that. No no no. We have to make everyone too stupid until it is too late because that's what the plot requires.
4. Udina's coup literally makes no sense it whatsoever and one can only explain it by saying "He was desperate" or "He was indoctrinated". If I killed the ambassador of Japan or France, I wouldn't get to take control of Japan or France's military. That seems to be Udina's thought process though and it is too laughably stupid to be explained with desperation. Stating that he must have been indoctrinated is like trying to explain every plot hole in Star Wars as "the will of the force."
5. Choices that don't go anywhere. Kill/Save Council= Alien Council in ME3 no matter what! Anderson/Udina= Udina is councilor no matter what. Save/Destroy Collector Base= Cerberus gets the tech anyway.
6 Dark Energy. Nevermind. 

Indeed.
In addition, Crucible could not be designed at all, because no race ever knew about Citadel being master control unit of the relay network, before reapers invasion.
And after that invasion, they've lost Citadel and the relay network, thus could not study master control unit and design the Crucible.
Crap story is crap.

[wright1978]

Nightwriter wrote...

I'm not sure what you expect. The Catalyst is the worst-chosen exposition mouthpiece I have seen in a long time. He invited the kind of fan reaction you are protesting.

Yep an atrocious contrived piece of garbage plot device. Abuse is the only thing the catalyst invited.

[Bill Casey]

Wolfva2 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Wolfva2 wrote...

Yes, that's exactly what theyr'e saying because THEY WROTE THE STORY.  Don't like it?  Delete it from your computer and walk away.  Because YOU don't get to tell OTHER PEOPLE how to write a story.

Actually I do...

Well.  Ok.  Sure, you get to tell people how to write a story, or what to do.  Same as you get to shout at the sun, "DON"T EFFING RISE DAGNABBIT!"  We'll all do the exact same thing as the sun and simply ignore your childish temper tantrum as you stomp your feet and scream that the world should be what YOU want it to be instead of what it IS.

Have fun in your impotence!

I'm glad you concede my point...
And impotent my ass...

The writers only have as much power over a story as we afford them...
What are they gonna do, sue us?

Bioware can stomp their feet all they want, but we can reject their childish ending and ignore their attempts to cram it down our throats. And that IS the way it is. Not the way Bioware wants it to be...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 20 juin 2013 - 07:36 .

[Deathsaurer]

David7204 wrote...
If the Leviathans knew about the Crucible, why wouldn't they have tried to build it themselves between cycles?

Are you implying the Leviathans would ever dirty their hands with grunt work? They clearly think such things are beneath them. I'm sure they've at least modified the thing at some point and probably make sure it survives. Whether or not they came up with the original idea is largely irrelevant. Honestly using the Citadel against the Reapers seems a bit out of the box for them so I'd lean towards them latching onto someone elses clever idea.

[AlanC9]

Sue you, Bill? No. They'll just write what they want to and ignore you.

Modifié par AlanC9, 20 juin 2013 - 07:39 .

[Ryzaki]

FlamingBoy wrote...

I beginning to think I am only one blown away by the stupidity of having a superweapon with three seperate and unique functions.

No you are not.

No wonder all three of them suck in some way. If only the crucible builders had you know focused on one outcome. Alas.

Unless of course the damn thing IS just a giant battery and starbrat's giving yout he options.

[Bill Casey]

AlanC9 wrote...

Sue you, Bill? No. They'll just write what they want to and ignore you.

And I can just reject what they write...
As is my power to do so...

In fact, rejecting the premise is one of the ending choices...
People forget they have that choice...

Bioware is categorically wrong in its assertion that we have to stoop to achieve...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 20 juin 2013 - 07:53 .

[Ryzaki]

wright1978 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I'm not sure what you expect. The Catalyst is the worst-chosen exposition mouthpiece I have seen in a long time. He invited the kind of fan reaction you are protesting.

Yep an atrocious contrived piece of garbage plot device. Abuse is the only thing the catalyst invited.

This.

I didn't think I'd find a character that knocked Near's garbage self off my most disliked fictional character's list but Starbrat shoved Near off the top so fast...

Just...everything about him is horrible. Horrible introduction, horrible motivation, just horrible.

[Nightwriter]

See, the ending the writers want to pitch is icky to me in and of itself. I need a lot of convincing. So it's really important they send someone good to try and persuade me that, no, really, their idea for the ending is a nice idea after all.

But instead of someone good, they send the archvillain of the series, which I really don't understand at all. It's like sending Satan to sell me time shares. Who in their right mind would combine such a hard-to-sell concept with such an untrustworthy seller. Don't they know that when you're pitching an idea like that you need to send Johnny Cochran or something?

And of course, the Catalyst appears before me as the dreamchild, so, okay, now I definitely know it's trying to screw with my head. But I guess I'm just supposed to magically ignore this and trust it anyway, because it's never brought up. That's like if Satan shows up at your door to sell you time shares, but dressed as a girl scout, with his great red goat body squeezed into a girl scout dress. But you don't actually call him on this, you just nod as he speaks and ask questions about your time share options.

I know absolutely nothing about how the Crucible works; all my information comes from the Catalyst (hooray). Aside from the fact that I can't verify a single thing it tells me and my suspicion levels are now through the roof, the information it gives me is totally confusing. It controls the Reapers, who are its slaves -- but it is the Reapers, so I guess the Reapers are slaves and slavers at the same time or something. I don't know. Hit the "more explanation" button. "When fire burns, is it at war?" Sh*t.

And the Crucible -- well. It's a "crude" power source. But apparently it's also able to fart out color-coded galaxy-changers, even though in my experience technology is almost never able to seamlessly adapt to events the programmer or builder did not foresee. Especially not "crude" technology. I mean, if it's a power source, then you'd think it's just powering a separate mechanism and that it's from this mechanism that the choices flow. But no, no, the Catalyst insists these decisions are coming from the Crucible itself.

And through all of it I can't really act like I'm as totally bewildered or suspicious as I am, even though from my perspective that seems like a pretty normal reaction to the whole Satan/time shares/girlscout thing in front of me.

I don't understand. I just don't. I'm suspicious and confused and I don't get how any of this is supposed to make sense to me. The only thing I am really sure of is that this weird confusion frustration ending ball came out of the Catalyst's mouth, and I don't like him.

[Yestare7]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
HYR 2.0. You're overthinking this. 

Reapers in story... not innocent. Starboy.... not innocent. Guilty as charged. Do you understand?

Julia speaks plainly. Synth supporters cower!

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Yestare7 wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
HYR 2.0. You're overthinking this. 

Reapers in story... not innocent. Starboy.... not innocent. Guilty as charged. Do you understand?

Julia speaks plainly. Synth supporters cower!

Thank you. It is quite simple. Look at the background. That is North America and Central America burning. The Reapers did that. I cannot understand how people could possibly think that having Shepard survive would be a happy happy Disney ending. Look at that. Those are flames. How many millions of people are dead. I'd bet probably about 80% which would be around 400-500 million.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Agreed. What the reapers did is unforgivable. The Crucible having three choices is stupid. It should have had one -- blow up the reapers. Unless it is just a giant battery and it is the stupid cuttlefish AI giving us the stupid choices.

[David7204]

The choices aren't from the Crucible.

[AlanC9]

Bill Casey wrote...


In fact, rejecting the premise is one of the ending choices...
People forget they have that choice...

Bioware is categorically wrong in its assertion that we have to stoop to achieve...

Are you saying that the galaxy isn't really destroyed in Refuse? Or that it is, but that's better than any other option available? Or that such a choice can't happen ITRW? Or something else entirely, and if so, what?

Modifié par AlanC9, 20 juin 2013 - 09:49 .

[AlanC9]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Thank you. It is quite simple. Look at the background. That is North America and Central America burning. The Reapers did that. I cannot understand how people could possibly think that having Shepard survive would be a happy happy Disney ending. Look at that. Those are flames. How many millions of people are dead. I'd bet probably about 80% which would be around 400-500 million.

Isn't that only a marketing shot?

[Yestare7]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Agreed. What the reapers did is unforgivable. The Crucible having three choices is stupid. It should have had one -- blow up the reapers.

+1

(hugs julia)

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

So we built a giant Duracell, and this stupid Cuttlefish AI (aka Mac Walters) gives us three ways to end the story. Nice.

And this is why we are not impressed with the Crucible. We could build the perfect Crucible and get the same 3 ways. We could have 100,000 EMS and get the same 3 ways. It is possible to have 100,000 EMS. We should kick reaper ass with that much. You simply play a ton of multiplayer and promote at every opportunity. But you only get the same stupid choices.

"We're sorry. We know you put a lot of time and effort into your game. We know that any reasonable person would understand that 100,000 EMS should kick the reapers back to dark space conventionally with their tails between their legs at about 0.1% of their strength never to be heard from again. Your feelings are important to us. Unfortunately you still get to choose your favorite color from the palette of red, green or blue." - the management.