418 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

And this is why we are not impressed with the Crucible. We could build the perfect Crucible and get the same 3 ways. We could have 100,000 EMS and get the same 3 ways. It is possible to have 100,000 EMS. We should kick reaper ass with that much. You simply play a ton of multiplayer and promote at every opportunity. But you only get the same stupid choices.
.

Isn't there something wrong with getting 100,000 EMS through MP when the base game offers you 1/25 of that? I could swear people had a problem with that sort of thing.

Or am I taking the rant too seriously?

[Big Bad]

Nightwriter wrote...

See, the ending the writers want to pitch is icky to me in and of itself. I need a lot of convincing. So it's really important they send someone good to try and persuade me that, no, really, their idea for the ending is a nice idea after all.

But instead of someone good, they send the archvillain of the series, which I really don't understand at all. It's like sending Satan to sell me time shares. Who in their right mind would combine such a hard-to-sell concept with such an untrustworthy seller. Don't they know that when you're pitching an idea like that you need to send Johnny Cochran or something?

And of course, the Catalyst appears before me as the dreamchild, so, okay, now I definitely know it's trying to screw with my head. But I guess I'm just supposed to magically ignore this and trust it anyway, because it's never brought up. That's like if Satan shows up at your door to sell you time shares, but dressed as a girl scout, with his great red goat body squeezed into a girl scout dress. But you don't actually call him on this, you just nod as he speaks and ask questions about your time share options.

I know absolutely nothing about how the Crucible works; all my information comes from the Catalyst (hooray). Aside from the fact that I can't verify a single thing it tells me and my suspicion levels are now through the roof, the information it gives me is totally confusing. It controls the Reapers, who are its slaves -- but it is the Reapers, so I guess the Reapers are slaves and slavers at the same time or something. I don't know. Hit the "more explanation" button. "When fire burns, is it at war?" Sh*t.

And the Crucible -- well. It's a "crude" power source. But apparently it's also able to fart out color-coded galaxy-changers, even though in my experience technology is almost never able to seamlessly adapt to events the programmer or builder did not foresee. Especially not "crude" technology. I mean, if it's a power source, then you'd think it's just powering a separate mechanism and that it's from this mechanism that the choices flow. But no, no, the Catalyst insists these decisions are coming from the Crucible itself.

And through all of it I can't really act like I'm as totally bewildered or suspicious as I am, even though from my perspective that seems like a pretty normal reaction to the whole Satan/time shares/girlscout thing in front of me.

I don't understand. I just don't. I'm suspicious and confused and I don't get how any of this is supposed to make sense to me. The only thing I am really sure of is that this weird confusion frustration ending ball came out of the Catalyst's mouth, and I don't like him.

Well said.  Honestly, I think the people discussing in this thread have put FAR more thought into the ending than the writers did when they came up with it.  Which, of course, is part of the problem. 

Modifié par Big Bad, 20 juin 2013 - 10:21 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

AlanC9 wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

And this is why we are not impressed with the Crucible. We could build the perfect Crucible and get the same 3 ways. We could have 100,000 EMS and get the same 3 ways. It is possible to have 100,000 EMS. We should kick reaper ass with that much. You simply play a ton of multiplayer and promote at every opportunity. But you only get the same stupid choices.
.

Isn't there something wrong with getting 100,000 EMS through MP when the base game offers you 1/25 of that? I could swear people had a problem with that sort of thing.

Or am I taking the rant too seriously?

Alan, you tend to take too much of what I write too seriously. Sometimes I'm serious. Sometimes I'm trolling. Sometimes I'm trolling to point out a flaw in the game. You need to look for key lines like "Your feelings are important to us." When you see lines that are dripping in sarcasm, you know that I'm just being semi-serious, but not overly serious.

It's no secret I hated the ending, but there are parts of the game I really liked, like the multi-player. And I really like the fact that this migraine has finally backed off. 2.5 fracking days.

I was not impressed with the Crucible. The game needed another year to work out a proper ending in the programming and graphics department. They didn't get it. The release date should have been 2013 not 2012. I'm sorry. It was rushed out the door. It is so obvious that the ending was just hurried and tacked on to shut up the publisher. I can't believe this is the ending that Walters and Hudson really had in mind all along. They're better than this. It makes no sense. They may have thought about something like a deus ex and wrote out something on a word processor. They that ending that Troxa posted on that diagram would have been really good, but it would have taken another year to do, and they didn't have the time to do it. So we got the Original Ending which sucked. Here, I'm being serious.

[GreyLycanTrope]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Why the Citadel is being used in the first place is because the Crucible is not sufficiently powerful enough to dispense the its energy throughout the galaxy to affect all Reapers (whom would naturally be spread throughout the galaxy in any given cycle). The Citadel compensates for this by utilizing the Citadel, the relay master-control unit, by sending the blast into the relays and thus spread it through the relay-connected galaxy. We know this because Vendetta says it.

Thing is, the Citadel doesn't have a mind of its own to coordinate the desired targetting. Enter the Catalyst.

Again, revisit the quotes. Everything he says goes down the lines of, "you can use the Crucible's energy to _____."

1.) Read the OP; 2.) Read the OP; 3.) Read the OP.

I did the first time, you fail to account for the possiblity of him adapting to crucible to suit his design. It is described as adaptive afterall. You're trying to convice us it's the other way around...I'm not convinced, it's still, too damned conviniant as no body was trying to even consider the possiblity of the signgularity outside of that one final moment. There's no discussion at any point in the game about what the implications of that event might mean for the universe. It can't be our problem if we're unaware of it and trying to at least theoretically find a solution.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 20 juin 2013 - 11:22 .

[AlanC9]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Isn't there something wrong with getting 100,000 EMS through MP when the base game offers you 1/25 of that? I could swear people had a problem with that sort of thing.
Or am I taking the rant too seriously?

Alan, you tend to take too much of what I write too seriously. Sometimes I'm serious. Sometimes I'm trolling. Sometimes I'm trolling to point out a flaw in the game. You need to look for key lines like "Your feelings are important to us." When you see lines that are dripping in sarcasm, you know that I'm just being semi-serious, but not overly serious.

And maybe I was troling by taking you literally. Though I do often have trouble separating troll posts from the truly idiotic ideas on this board, I figured you weren't exactly being serious there.

[AlanC9]

Greylycantrope wrote...

I did the first time, you fail to account for the possiblity of him adapting to crucible to suit his design. It is described as adaptive afterall. 

So the Reapers are trying to stop the Crucible all the time, only to discover when it docks that it solves their problems? Unless they've damaged it too much, in which case they've doomed themselves?

Amusing irony if true. Is this really how you see it going?

Modifié par AlanC9, 20 juin 2013 - 11:38 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Greylycantrope wrote...

I did the first time, you fail to account for the possiblity of him adapting to crucible to suit his design. It is described as adaptive afterall. You're trying to convice us it's the other way around...

I'm letting the narrative do the talking here. OP is a compilation of all the evidence I could find in it supporting RGB as Crucible choices. Lots of evidence. Take a good look. OTOH, the notion that the Catalyst gave you its own set of solutions comes from rationale that boils down to: "I don't believe it." Not, mind you, compelling facts that would lead one to come to that conclusion.

It also flat-out makes more sense, for a host of reasons. Such as: why is the Catalyst just sitting on better solutions?? Why did he design all these better solutions such that he's unable to pick them and must rely on an organic??

It's hard data vs. suspicion.

I'm not convinced, it's still, too damned conviniant as no body was trying to even consider the possiblity of the signgularity outside of that one final moment. There's no discussion at any point in the game about what the implications of that event might mean for the universe. It can't be our problem if we're unaware of it and trying to at least theoretically find a solution.

Again, the Reapers and the singularity are one in the same. Refer to this thread. The Catalyst's problem is nothing but a literary allegory to go right back to the Reapers themselves. They are a manifestation of the "singularity."

Ergo, building the Crucible to stop the Reapers = building the Crucible to stop the singularity (if inadvertently).

It's not overthinking. It's simplification.

[GreyLycanTrope]

AlanC9 wrote...
So the Reapers are trying to stop the Crucible all the time, only to discover when it docks that it solves their problems? Unless they've damaged it too much, in which case they've doomed themselves?

Amusing irony if true. Is this really how you see it going?

You never realized this irony when synthesis was on the table? I mean it's everything they're stiving for but they still try to stop it, wait too long and the Crucible gets destroy.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 21 juin 2013 - 12:50 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

HYR 2.0 wrote...
I'm letting the narrative do the talking here. OP is a compilation of all the evidence I could find in it supporting RGB as Crucible choices. Lots of evidence. Take a good look. OTOH, the notion that the Catalyst gave you its own set of solutions comes from rationale that boils down to: "I don't believe it." Not, mind you, compelling facts that would lead one to come to that conclusion.

It also flat-out makes more sense, for a host of reasons. Such as: why is the Catalyst just sitting on better solutions?? Why did he design all these better solutions such that he's unable to pick them and must rely on an organic??

It's hard data vs. suspicion.

Not suspicion just different take on same narrative. We can argue back and forth over interperation but mine is no less valid. You simply chose to focus on more of what was said and less one what was acutally shown. So no I won't be shutting up about it since your view isn't fact at all just your take on language which can support my version as much as your since all it says it essential says is that the Crucible and Catalyst needed each other to implement these solutions. Which one domineers more isn't explicidly state. And no before you start "The Crucible changed me" doesn't mean he's suberviant to it, it can just as easily means it gave him more options to work with, as we've seen he's already capable of modfying to functionality of the Citadel before the Crucible docks. Second if the Crucible by design needed someone aboard to implement the changes after being plugged into the catalyst, it would have probably been a good idea to mention that in the intructions, as it stands Shepard is merely there to make the choice by conicidance.

Again, the Reapers and the singularity are one in the same. Refer to this thread. The Catalyst's problem is nothing but a literary allegory to go right back to the Reapers themselves. They are a manifestation of the "singularity."

Ergo, building the Crucible to stop the Reapers = building the Crucible to stop the singularity (if inadvertently).

It's not overthinking. It's simplification.

Which is simplification to the point of aburdity and contrivance. You're trying to stop the Reapers by implementing a solution that guesses what their motivations are perfectly in synthesis. Aside from the Leviathans which are an after the fact add on to the lore, no one knows their motivations until Shepard finds out. I mean if synthesis functions because of the Crucible the designers, they had to either know that the Reapers were trying to stop the problem of the singularity or assumed that the Reapers were aggressive as a result of the singularity, in either case the point becomes moot when the device can just kill the Reapers and all traces of the singularity to begin with, why the hell would they waste resaurces in this manner during a time of imminent crisis when they weren't sure their solution would even work to stop the Reapers?

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 21 juin 2013 - 01:07 .

[AlanC9]

Greylycantrope wrote...
You never realized this irony when synthesis was on the table? I mean it's everything they're stiving for but they still try to stop it, wait too long and the Crucible gets destroy.

My point  - badly expressed - was that all they accomplish is ruling out their own favored options, not the ones they don't like. It's hard to reconcile that with actually understanding or controlling the situation. The Catalyst has enough control to add Synthesis but not enough to stop Destroy?

Modifié par AlanC9, 21 juin 2013 - 01:20 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Not suspicion just different take on same narrative. We can argue back and forth over interperation but mine is no less valid. You simply chose to focus on more of what was said and less one what was acutally shown.

If there's ANY evidence to the contrary -- evidence that the Catalyst created the choices, or had a hand in their creation -- I'd love to see it. I revisited the ending while writing up this thread and there's simply nothing there that would lead me to believe such a notion -- apart from not being able to visually discern Citadel from Crucible clearly in that scene.

To that end, I'll have you know that I originally believed the opposite. Again, the layout of the "decision chamber" is pretty funky and confusing, 'hard to get a good look at what's what. That picture in the OP made me reconsider, and upon further reflection, I found it generally does make more sense -- based on what we indeed can know -- that they all stem from the Crucible. EC largely just re-affirms that with all the dialogue it adds to the ending.

In that, I tend to consider the Catalyst's words to be the voice of the author.

So no I won't be shutting up about it since your view isn't fact at all just your take on language which can support my version as much as your since all it says it essential says is that the Crucible and Catalyst needed each other to implement these solutions. Which one domineers more isn't explicidly state. And no before you start "The Crucible changed me" doesn't mean he's suberviant to it, it can just as easily means it gave him more options to work with, as we've seen he's already capable of modfying to functionality of the Citadel before the Crucible docks. Second if the Crucible by design needed someone aboard to implement the changes after being plugged into the catalyst, it would have probably been a good idea to mention that in the intructions, as it stands Shepard is merely there to make the choice by conicidance.

Okay? I'm not asking you to can it. I may post with a bit of an "edge" but I'm generally all-ears.

However, I dare say my interpretation is more valid than others'. In the end, I have everything in the OP to back me up. I do not see anything as compelling back up others to make me believe otherwise. 'Til then, I go with me.

As to the bolded... the absense of evidence is not evidence -- it proves nothing either way. Oustanding issues with the ending are just that: outstanding issues. All we can do is speculate. I'm just focused on the information that *is* given.

Which is simplification to the point of aburdity and contrivance. You're trying to stop the Reapers by implementing a solution that guesses what their motivations are perfectly in synthesis. Aside from the Leviathans which are an after the fact add on to the lore, no one knows their motivations until Shepard finds out.

I guess Shepard is the variable that allows Sync. 'Been a while since I've examined this topic.

I mean if synthesis functions because of the Crucible the designers, they had to either know that the Reapers were trying to stop the problem of the singularity or assumed that the Reapers were aggressive as a result of the singularity, in either case the point becomes moot when the device can just kill the Reapers and all traces of the singularity to begin with, why the hell would they waste resaurces in this manner during a time of imminent crisis when they weren't sure their solution would even work to stop the Reapers?

Who knows. It was the work of many cycles. Clearly the thing wasn't quite perfect by game's end.

[GreyLycanTrope]

AlanC9 wrote...
My point  - badly expressed - was that all they accomplish is ruling out their own favored options, not the ones they don't like. It's hard to reconcile that with actually understanding or controlling the situation. The Catalyst has enough control to add Synthesis but not enough to stop Destroy?

That's if you consider destory something he want to stop. Since we're playing attention to the wording in this thread you'll notice that when the Catalyst speaks he mentions solutions, that's plural solutions. Are we really certain it extends to only two of the presented options? I'm not. From the context we know he's not opposed to short term solutions, that's essentially what the current plan of the cycles is, let life in the galaxy develop to a certain point, hit the restart button. Destory works in much the same fashion except the control of the restart button is handed over to the organics via the crucible. Neither the cycles nor the Destroy option stop the singularity on the long term, but it does rest thing before or when they start to get out of hand(or they're perceive to be anyways), he even warn you that you'll have to still deal with the problem down the line when he tells you the chaos will return, that's him telling you'll be in much the same position of having to restart the galaxy.

He does loose his Reapers and other synthetics through this but as he put it you'll always build synthetics anyways since that's organic nature according to him so even they will go on in some fashion.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 21 juin 2013 - 03:00 .

[Sovereign330]

there is no objective right or wrong...there is subjective right and wrong based on belief and you're either good at arguing for and backing up your belief or you suck at it. that's pretty much it.

[GreyLycanTrope]

HYR 2.0 wrote...
If there's ANY evidence to the contrary -- evidence that the Catalyst created the choices, or had a hand in their creation -- I'd love to see it. I revisited the ending while writing up this thread and there's simply nothing there that would lead me to believe such a notion -- apart from not being able to visually discern Citadel from Crucible clearly in that scene.

To that end, I'll have you know that I originally believed the opposite. Again, the layout of the "decision chamber" is pretty funky and confusing, 'hard to get a good look at what's what. That picture in the OP made me reconsider, and upon further reflection, I found it generally does make more sense -- based on what we indeed can know -- that they all stem from the Crucible. EC largely just re-affirms that with all the dialogue it adds to the ending.

In that, I tend to consider the Catalyst's words to be the voice of the author.

You realize there's reason for all the speculation jokes right? Any evidance we bring up is up to interpreation, I can literally spin any line you quoted in the OP to support my perspective, much like you're doing. I'm sorry but I'm not sure how visuals helped you better understand anything, the two objects are connect that was always the case.

Okay? I'm not asking you to can it.

That is literally what you do in the first two words of your thread title. And later at the end of your OP when you tell us to stop whining because of how right and infalliable your position is.

I may post with a bit of an "edge" but I'm generally all-ears.

However, I dare say my interpretation is more valid than others'. In the end, I have everything in the OP to back me up. I do not see anything as compelling back up others to make me believe otherwise. 'Til then, I go with me.

As to the bolded... the absense of evidence is not evidence -- it proves nothing either way. Oustanding issues with the ending are just that: outstanding issues. All we can do is speculate. I'm just focused on the information that *is* given.

That's because you've suspended your disbelief further than the rest of us to the point where you can find solution even if they're not supported by the context presented much like your theory on nanites. I am also focusing on the information given, I've simply down different conclusion form it based on what seems to make the most sense given the context, not because it absolutely needs to make sense to me, it making sense within context is the author's responsibility, my job is ends at telling them how well they managed to express their ideas.

I guess Shepard is the variable that allows Sync. 'Been a while since I've examined this topic.

Again I'm forced to ask why Shepard as he's there by coincidence.

Who knows. It was the work of many cycles. Clearly the thing wasn't quite perfect by game's end.

I probably sound like a complete dick at this point but you're going to tell me you interpretation makes the most sense compared to other people and then just shrug off one of the short comings presented by the premise you propose? You realize that's not helping to convince people of your position, right?

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 21 juin 2013 - 02:27 .

[Sovereign330]

convincing the opposition of your view is a rare and nearly impossible thing to do. no point in really trying to the point hyr 2.0 is. let everyone have their views and leave it at that.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Big Bad wrote...

Well said.  Honestly, I think the people discussing in this thread have put FAR more thought into the ending than the writers did when they came up with it.  Which, of course, is part of the problem. 

Very true. 

One way or the other, no matter how you think on the matter of the ending and the choices (synthesis in particular), I believe a lot more thought has gone into the ending from most parties here.

[Tron Mega]

my EMS score is what saves the galaxy.

nothing else matters. nothing.

good thing the catalyst knows my EMS score too.

[o Ventus]

AlanC9 wrote...

Isn't that only a marketing shot?

Does it matter? The start up screen is similar enough, and the Palaven images from Menae are just as bad as the picture that Julia linked. Keep in mind that Earth received the brunt of the Reaper attack. By all means, the damage seen on Palaven is less serious than that on Earth.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Greylycantrope wrote...

You realize there's reason for all the speculation jokes right?

Yes, that reason is Mac's infamous notes on the ending.

However, speculation (read: interpretation) is still necessary to the understanding a story.

If we have any interest in understanding this work, we should do it, no matter how jaded the writers have made us!

Any evidance we bring up is up to interpreation, I can literally spin any line you quoted in the OP to support my perspective, much like you're doing. I'm sorry but I'm not sure how visuals helped you better understand anything, the two objects are connect that was always the case.

There is no "spin" on my quotes. They prove the options come from the Crucible at their face-value.

You, OTOH, would have to reductio ad absurdum (sp?) the quotes at hand to make them support your claims.

As to the last part -- it helped me discern Crucible from Citadel, as I understand it now.

Okay? I'm not asking you to can it.

That is literally what you do in the first two words of your thread title. And later at the end of your OP when you tell us to stop whining because of how right and infalliable your position is.

Oh. Well, in that case... yeah. 

You have to admit, it's a lot of trouble for something we can concretely prove is correct or not.

This thread is a drop in the bucket compared to the all the complaining/hate caused by the premise it responds to.

That's because you've suspended your disbelief further than the rest of us to the point where you can find solution even if they're not supported by the context presented much like your theory on nanites.

It is supported by the context.

See #1 in my OP. I came up with eight (count 'em, eight) quotes from the scene that support my claim.

If your disbelief doesn't allow you to accept in-game dialogue, your disbelief is much too high.

I am also focusing on the information given, I've simply down different conclusion form it based on what seems to make the most sense given the context, not because it absolutely needs to make sense to me, it making sense within context is the author's responsibility, my job is ends at telling them how well they managed to express their ideas.

You've yet to show me how the given information points to the RGB as his doing.

Up to now it's mainly been "seems that way" kind of reasoning -- too convenient, don't buy this, (...)

And, I disagree with that last part of your post. The audience needs to do a little headwork at times and not rely solely on context, because there may exist subtext they may not notice if they don't stop and think things over critically. It doesn't always stand out in an obvious manner, and yet the whole story can ride on one piece of subtext.

I guess Shepard is the variable that allows Sync. 'Been a while since I've examined this topic.

Again I'm forced to ask why Shepard as he's there by coincidence.

I believe you just answered your own question.

And it would not be the first thing in the plot to happen for that same reason.

As another example: Shepard and Legion first crossing paths, Derelict Reaper.

I probably sound like a complete dick at this point but you're going to tell me you interpretation makes the most sense compared to other people and then just shrug off one of the short comings presented by the premise you propose? You realize that's not helping to convince people of your position, right?

I never said my interpretation is 100% water-tight, and at some point that may have more to do with the ending itself than my ability to make sense of it. Some issues can simply be chalked up to author screw-ups (plotholes).

However, not everything about the ending is purely nonsensical either, as many would have you believe.

There are holes with the ending. I have never denied this. Yet many things can be answered with a little thinkun.

[AlanC9]

o Ventus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Isn't that only a marketing shot?

Does it matter? The start up screen is similar enough, and the Palaven images from Menae are just as bad as the picture that Julia linked. Keep in mind that Earth received the brunt of the Reaper attack. By all means, the damage seen on Palaven is less serious than that on Earth.

Yes, it matters. The codex flatly contradicts any notion that 80% of the population got killed -- the harvesting figures doin't work if that's the case.

[o Ventus]

AlanC9 wrote...

Yes, it matters. The codex flatly contradicts any notion that 80% of the population got killed -- the harvesting figures doin't work if that's the case.

Good thing I need brought up any population numbers then, so I'm not sure why you are.

[AlanC9]

Greylycantrope wrote...

 From the context we know he's not opposed to short term solutions, that's essentially what the current plan of the cycles is, let life in the galaxy develop to a certain point, hit the restart button. Destory works in much the same fashion except the control of the restart button is handed over to the organics via the crucible. Neither the cycles nor the Destroy option stop the singularity on the long term, but it does rest thing before or when they start to get out of hand(or they're perceive to be anyways), he even warn you that you'll have to still deal with the problem down the line when he tells you the chaos will return, that's him telling you'll be in much the same position of having to restart the galaxy.

The obvious problem with this is that there's no immediate singularity problem in the first place. You could headcanon that it's the geth except that if they're dead we still get a Destroy option. What short-term problem is Destroy solving? Why is he consenting to the destruction of the Reapers and the abandonment of the cycles? 

[David7204]

Because he acknowledges that Shepard knows or understands something he doesn't, since the current cycle defied his expectations.

[Iakus]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

So we built a giant Duracell, and this stupid Cuttlefish AI (aka Mac Walters) gives us three ways to end the story. Nice.

And this is why we are not impressed with the Crucible. We could build the perfect Crucible and get the same 3 ways. We could have 100,000 EMS and get the same 3 ways. It is possible to have 100,000 EMS. We should kick reaper ass with that much. You simply play a ton of multiplayer and promote at every opportunity. But you only get the same stupid choices.

"We're sorry. We know you put a lot of time and effort into your game. We know that any reasonable person would understand that 100,000 EMS should kick the reapers back to dark space conventionally with their tails between their legs at about 0.1% of their strength never to be heard from again. Your feelings are important to us. Unfortunately you still get to choose your favorite color from the palette of red, green or blue." - the management.

No matter how much of a difference we made, it made no difference.

[AlanC9]

o Ventus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Yes, it matters. The codex flatly contradicts any notion that 80% of the population got killed -- the harvesting figures doin't work if that's the case.

Good thing I need brought up any population numbers then, so I'm not sure why you are.

Because that picture was being used as evidence for a nonsense argument about population numbers.

I guess you didn't read the quote I included with my post. Reposted for your convenience:

Thank you. It is quite simple. Look at the background. That is North America and Central America burning. The Reapers did that. I cannot understand how people could possibly think that having Shepard survive would be a happy happy Disney ending. Look at that. Those are flames. How many millions of people are dead. I'd bet probably about 80% which would be around 400-500 million.

There's a non-crazy version of the argument available if she cares to make it.

Modifié par AlanC9, 21 juin 2013 - 04:59 .