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On the appearance of men and women in DA: I

Débuté par sandalisthemaker , juin 19 2013 10:52

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#251
FKA_Servo
Posté 21 juin 2013 - 03:25

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EntropicAngel wrote...

I've heard/watched that, actually.

But I'm looking for real data here, not editorialism.


Like most aspects of criticism and deconstruction, you can't really quantify it with numbers - it's observed, and it's discussed. You could go further by just googling "objectification and power fantasies" and the like. A lot of good stuff comes up. Here's another decent discussion between men, women, devs, and the unwashed masses, showing multiple angles.

There's a ton of evidence and thought provoking discussion out there about it that can be verified with your own two eyes. Frankly (and I'm speaking generally, not directly to you), the people who can't see the evidence of it have already decided that they don't want to. Given context and intent, it's very clear that characters like Kratos or Conan the Barbarian were not conceived as "eye candy"  - they weren't created or designed to appeal to women aesthetically, sexually, whatever. I'm not saying that some people won't find that attractive - obviously that's not the case, 100% of the time. But in Kratos' or Marcus Fenix's (for another example) particular brand of charicatured masculinity, it's clear who the target audience is.

Modifié par TommyServo, 21 juin 2013 - 03:28 .

#252
Rinji the Bearded
Posté 21 juin 2013 - 03:39

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kinderschlager wrote...


she expressed no interest in going back to the cursed cave after exploring it with you in the dalish origins quest, AND she doesn't want to take what's his name along with you till you over ride her cause she believes it is too dangerous.

i re-iterate, went from level headed keeper aprentice to missing more than a few screw blood mage


Could it be that some people change over time, especially after a traumatic event?

No way.

#253
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 21 juin 2013 - 03:40

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TommyServo wrote...

Like most aspects of criticism and deconstruction, you can't really quantify it with numbers - it's observed, and it's discussed. You could go further by just googling "objectification and power fantasies" and the like. A lot of good stuff comes up. Here's another decent discussion between men, women, devs, and the unwashed masses, showing multiple angles.

There's a ton of evidence and thought provoking discussion out there about it that can be verified with your own two eyes. Frankly (and I'm speaking generally, not directly to you), the people who can't see the evidence of it have already decided that they don't want to. Given context and intent, it's very clear that characters like Kratos or Conan the Barbarian were not conceived as "eye candy"  - they weren't created or designed to appeal to women aesthetically, sexually, whatever. I'm not saying that some people won't find that attractive - obviously that's not the case, 100% of the time. But in Kratos' or Marcus Fenix's (for another example) particular brand of charicatured masculinity, it's clear who the target audience is.


I'm not looking for "viewpoints" or "discussions."

That's all well and good, but the post I responded to said very plainly that "masculine male with chisled features is not the female sexual fantasy." I'd like to know where they have proof of that.

#254
Guest_Puddi III_*
Posté 21 juin 2013 - 03:51

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 How's that saying go? Women want him, men want to be him? They aren't necessarily mutually exclusive... or maybe that saying is sexist. :lol:

#255
FKA_Servo
Posté 21 juin 2013 - 03:52

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EntropicAngel wrote...
I'm not looking for "viewpoints" or "discussions."

That's all well and good, but the post I responded to said very plainly that "masculine male with chisled features is not the female sexual fantasy." I'd like to know where they have proof of that.


You'd have to clarify what Keightdee wrote directly with them, then. I'm speaking to my understanding of what s/he wrote, and what s/he seemed to be describing (objectification and sexualization versus power fantasies and projection) is a well-documented and well-understood issue, but not something you'll find the proof of in a pie chart or a graph. You have to look at what people are saying about it. Then you have to think about it. Or at least be willing to.

The proof is in consensus.

Modifié par TommyServo, 21 juin 2013 - 03:56 .

#256
Rinji the Bearded
Posté 21 juin 2013 - 03:57

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EntropicAngel wrote...

I'm not looking for "viewpoints" or "discussions."

That's all well and good, but the post I responded to said very plainly that "masculine male with chisled features is not the female sexual fantasy." I'd like to know where they have proof of that.


You are missing the point by like, a million miles

Characters like Kratos and other big muscular males are not created by the developers to titillate the female audience.  Being big and muscular and strong and athletic is an IDEAL.  No one is saying that women aren't attracted to that, but it's not why the developers made them that way.  You wanna be that cool guy on the screen, because he's attractive and strong and great.

On the other hand, female characters are often designed with sex appeal.  Take the revamp of Kaidan and Ashley in Mass Effect 3 for example.  Kaidan went from his light armor in ME1 to wearing bulky armor to make him look tougher.  Ash LOST her heavy armor and was given something like a catsuit to make her sexy -- something that the artbook explicitly states.   They didn't say "we redesigned Kaidan so he'd be more appealing to female audiences," yet that's exactly what happened to Ash and the male audience.

So stop with all of this "BUT I NEED THE SCIENCE" of it, you're nitpicking for no real reason except to be combative.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 21 juin 2013 - 04:03 .

#257
Straw Nihilist
Posté 21 juin 2013 - 04:02

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Heh heh... titillate.

#258
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 21 juin 2013 - 04:09

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RinjiRenee wrote...

You are missing the point by like, a million miles

Characters like Kratos and other big muscular males are not created by the developers to titilate the female audience.  Being big and muscular and strong and athletic is an IDEAL.  No one is saying that women aren't attracted to that, but it's not why the developers made them that way.  You wanna be that cool guy on the screen, because he's attractive and strong and great.

On the other hand, female characters are often designed with sex appeal.  Take the revamp of Kaidan and Ashley in Mass Effect 3 for example.  Kaidan went from his light armor in ME1 to wearing bulky armor to make him look tougher.  Ash LOST her heavy armor and was given something like a catsuit to make her sexy -- something that the artbook explicitly states.   They didn't say "we redesigned Kaidan so he'd be more appealing to female audiences," yet that's exactly what happened to Ash and the male audience.

So stop with all of this "BUT I NEED THE SCIENCE" of it, you're nitpicking for no real reason.



I understand your point. I get your point. I see value in your point.

But someone made the claim that buff, chisled males are not the primary female sexual fantasy, and I find that awfully sketchy so I asked for proof of this.

No one has given any.


And your point about Kaidan only reinforces the idea that the buff, chisled male is the female sexual fantasy.

Or fellows like our Plaintiff:P *looks at profile picture*

#259
Rinji the Bearded
Posté 21 juin 2013 - 04:19

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EntropicAngel wrote...

I understand your point. I get your point. I see value in your point.

But someone made the claim that buff, chisled males are not the primary female sexual fantasy, and I find that awfully sketchy so I asked for proof of this.

No one has given any.


And your point about Kaidan only reinforces the idea that the buff, chisled male is the female sexual fantasy.

Or fellows like our Plaintiff:P *looks at profile picture*


Your confirmation bias is not proof. 

#260
FKA_Servo
Posté 21 juin 2013 - 04:22

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Edit - double post

Modifié par TommyServo, 21 juin 2013 - 04:26 .

#261
FKA_Servo
Posté 21 juin 2013 - 04:25

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EntropicAngel wrote...


I understand your point. I get your point. I see value in your point.

But someone made the claim that buff, chisled males are not the primary female sexual fantasy, and I find that awfully sketchy so I asked for proof of this.

No one has given any.


And your point about Kaidan only reinforces the idea that the buff, chisled male is the female sexual fantasy.

Or fellows like our Plaintiff:P *looks at profile picture*


Even if they happen to be, the large part if the issue is that this is incidental to how the characters are conceived and designed.

Female gamers, as a demographic, aren't consulted, polled, or courted by developers and designers. This has been the case historically, and it still is the case 9.5 times out of ten. Basically, they settle for tablescraps. If they like what they get, so much the better, but their desires and concerns certainly aren't central to the design. For the most part, they aren't even considered. Kind of strange, since they're playing games as much as men these days.

Modifié par TommyServo, 21 juin 2013 - 04:25 .

#262
Lennard Testarossa
Posté 21 juin 2013 - 04:30

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TommyServo wrote...
Kind of strange, since they're playing games as much as men these days.


Surely you have a reliable source for that statement?

#263
FKA_Servo
Posté 21 juin 2013 - 04:37

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Lennard Testarossa wrote...
Surely you have a reliable source for that statement?


Sigh.

Even if women weren't gaming in roughly the same numbers as men, can you think of a good reason to justify *not* striving to make gaming more accessible or welcoming to everyone? Is there a problem with attracting more people, more women, to the pastime?

#264
Guest_Puddi III_*
Posté 21 juin 2013 - 04:39

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lols you people and your sauces, you must have a really bad steak to need so much sauce. Is it such a threatening notion that devs might design games in a more egalitarian way that you need a body of evidence stronger than the theory of evolution to show that women, in fact, play games? The problem being such as it is, isn't that kind of demand a catch-22 in itself, even if women have soldiered on to become a significant part of the market despite it being less hospitable than it ought to be?

#265
Plaintiff
Posté 21 juin 2013 - 04:42

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EntropicAngel wrote...
And your point about Kaidan only reinforces the idea that the buff, chisled male is the female sexual fantasy.

It only re-inforces that idea if Kaidan was re-designed with female audiences in mind, and somehow, I don't think that's the case.

Stating that any particular image of a man is "the" female sexual fantasy is going to be a bold claim at best. But I think looking at most video game covers would make it pretty obvious that the men on them are not intended to appeal sexually to women. They aren't intended to appeal sexually to anyone. If anybody, man or woman, finds a male videogame protagonist to be sexually attractive, it's something that should most likely be chalked up to coincidence, rather than any intention on the part of the developers, especially since a number of developers explicitly state that they are not seeking to cater to women in any way.

Ideals of conventional beauty in Western society for both sexes, generally speaking, favour a youthful look, a slender build, clear skin, full lips, often a clean-shaven body and face. These are trends that anybody should be able to recognise from looking around the mall, or flipping through a clothing catalogue. Additionally, the models in such pictures pose passively, in a casual manner, often leaning against something. Their expressions, broadly speaking, fall into one of two categories: friendly, open and smiling, or an intense stare intended to seduce the audience. They are rarely, if ever, shown carrying weapons.

By contrast, video game protagonists are often unaturally big and brawny (Kratos, the guys from Gears of War). They are scarred, and often have facial hair or full-on beards. They are frequently older men, at least thirty. The most recent games I played had male protagonists approaching fifty. They do not pose in a passive, or casual manner, they are poised to fight, with their fists clenched, and they are often marching or leaning towards the viewer as if they intend to assault them. They are not making friendly or seductive expressions; they are sneering, glaring, or impassive. They are often wearing a weapon, or brandishing one directly at the viewer.

Video game protagonists are not designed to be sexy, they are most often designed to appear threatening and intimidating. Some men and women find intimidation sexy, some probably even find being threatened with violence to be arousing. There's a kink for everything, but those particular kinks exist well outside the parameters of conventional Western ideas of what "sexy" is.

So while it may be conceivable that a hefty number of women go weak in the knees at the sight of Kratos, and I'm sure there are a few that do, it's not at all likely that devleopers had that goal in mind when designing him or any other video-game protagonist.

Whatever "the" female sexual fantasy is, I think we can reasonably argue that for most women, it probably doesn't involve strange, gigantic, scarred men charging up to them and punching them in the face. Buff and chiselled might be on the list, but a man can be both those things without looking anything like your average videogame protagonist.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 21 juin 2013 - 05:16 .

#266
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Posté 21 juin 2013 - 04:45

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RinjiRenee wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

I understand your point. I get your point. I see value in your point.

But someone made the claim that buff, chisled males are not the primary female sexual fantasy, and I find that awfully sketchy so I asked for proof of this.

No one has given any.


And your point about Kaidan only reinforces the idea that the buff, chisled male is the female sexual fantasy.

Or fellows like our Plaintiff:P *looks at profile picture*


Your confirmation bias is not proof. 


I'm leaving my quote up there so you can point out where I said there was proof of anything.

Point it out, please.


And really, I can respond the exact same thing: your refusal to believe that women in general have a buff,chisled male as their sexual fantasy is giving you the opposite of confirmation bias..."rejection bias," if you will. I'm not saying that, but I'm saying that that statement has as much validity as yours does.

#267
Lennard Testarossa
Posté 21 juin 2013 - 04:48

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TommyServo wrote...
Even if women weren't gaming in roughly the same numbers as men, can you think of a good reason to justify *not* striving to make gaming more accessible or welcoming to everyone? Is there a problem with attracting more people, more women, to the pastime?


I wasn't trying to argue for or against it.

Filament wrote...
Is it such a threatening notion that devs might design games in a more egalitarian way that you need a body of evidence stronger than the theory of evolution to show that women, in fact, play games?


First of all, that was not the statement made. Secondly, I simply strongly dislike it if people make quantitative claims without having reliable evidence to back said claims up, especially if it is a very strong claim. "Sauce" is the only truly reliable way to assert reality.

#268
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Posté 21 juin 2013 - 04:51

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TommyServo wrote...

Even if they happen to be, the large part if the issue is that this is incidental to how the characters are conceived and designed.

Female gamers, as a demographic, aren't consulted, polled, or courted by developers and designers. This has been the case historically, and it still is the case 9.5 times out of ten. Basically, they settle for tablescraps. If they like what they get, so much the better, but their desires and concerns certainly aren't central to the design. For the most part, they aren't even considered. Kind of strange, since they're playing games as much as men these days.


But the problem is, you don't know that.

USFEO 2013

Until we have developers saying, "I'm designing my characters for a white straight male fanbase," making that claim has no validity because you are not a developer (unless you ARE, if so say so).

The fact that:

the majority of males conform to female..."stereotypical fantasies" like Alistair the goofy romantic or Fenris the broody, sensitive fellow IN ADDITION TO most of the females conforming to male stereotypical fantasies like Isabella "has no pants needs no pants" or Morrigan "let's put on more clothes to have sex that I wear normally"

really cannot be refuted by CLAIMING (no proof) "well, it's incidental."

#269
KainD
Posté 21 juin 2013 - 04:53

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Plaintiff wrote...

Video game protagonists are not designed to be sexy, they are most often designed to be appear threatening and intimidating. 


Unless it's an asian game: 
Image IPB

Cover featuring 2 male protagonists from a fightning game. ^_^

#270
Guest_Puddi III_*
Posté 21 juin 2013 - 04:58

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Lennard Testarossa wrote...

TommyServo wrote...
Even if women weren't gaming in roughly the same numbers as men, can you think of a good reason to justify *not* striving to make gaming more accessible or welcoming to everyone? Is there a problem with attracting more people, more women, to the pastime?


I wasn't trying to argue for or against it.

Filament wrote...
Is it such a threatening notion that devs might design games in a more egalitarian way that you need a body of evidence stronger than the theory of evolution to show that women, in fact, play games?


First of all, that was not the statement made. Secondly, I simply strongly dislike it if people make quantitative claims without having reliable evidence to back said claims up, especially if it is a very strong claim. "Sauce" is the only truly reliable way to assert reality.

I'm glad it's settled then that the devs are allowed to design their games in a more egalitarian way and you won't complain about it while citing 'facts' about why males are the market and so they should be catered to exclusively. I'm sure billy the squid will do double duty for you, though.

#271
keightdee
Posté 21 juin 2013 - 05:01

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EntropicAngel wrote...

But someone made the claim that buff, chisled males are not the primary female sexual fantasy, and I find that awfully sketchy so I asked for proof of this.

No one has given any.


Here's the thing: your ignorance is not my responsibility. I know you want proof, I know you want hard data. You want bar graphs and statistics and theories tested in labs. I get that.

Think about what you're asking me here. You're saying, "You know, keightdee, I just don't believe you. The evidence of your eyes and the eyes of other people in this thread don't matter to me because they're not wearing labcoats and carrying a degree in a related field." (But wait! I am carrying a degree! Come back!) You're saying, "I could try to find this out for myself if I really cared, but I don't care, so I'm asking you to spend hours digging through your university's electronic journals for an article that directly addresses the topic we're discussing."

Ok. That takes a long time. Are you going to pay me for that time? I've got other things to do. And what happens when I find the right article? Are you really going to read all 40-odd pages of academic research and go, "Wow, they're right!" Because, frankly, I don't believe it. And anyway, what field should we even look in? There're so many! There's human sexuality, biology, women and gender studies, anthropology, sociology, history, maybe even literature??

Let's say I have found some interesting academic research. How would I link them to you? They're behind a paywall. Do you have access to JSTOR? Because I can hand you all the citations in the world, but if you can't access them they're meaningless.

Power, Desire, and Pleasure in Sexual FantasiesEileen L. Zurbriggen and Megan R. YostThe Journal of Sex Research , Vol. 41, No. 3 (Aug., 2004), pp. 288-300

Perils of the Princess: Gender and Genre in Video GamesSharon R. ShermanWestern Folklore , Vol. 56, No. 3/4 (Summer - Autumn, 1997), pp. 243-258

Women's Sexual Interests across the Ovulatory Cycle Depend on Primary Partner Developmental InstabilitySteven W. Gangestad, Randy Thornhill and Christine E. Garver-ApgarProceedings: Biological Sciences , Vol. 272, No. 1576 (Oct. 7, 2005), pp. 2023-2027

Listen. It's not my responsibility to teach you these things. I paid my dues (I'm still paying them in the form of student loans ;__;) by sitting in thousands of hours of classes learning about culture and gender. I've written hundreds of pages about culture and gender. I don't care if you're convinced. I don't care if you change your mind. I did the work because I wanted to. Now it's your turn.

#272
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Posté 21 juin 2013 - 05:04

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Plaintiff wrote...

It only re-inforces that idea if Kaidan was re-designed with female audiences in mind, and somehow, I don't think that's the case.


But the problem here is, we don't know that and your side is claiming to know that.

Stating that any particular image of a man is "the" female sexual fantasy is going to be a bold claim at best. But I think looking at most video game covers would make it pretty obvious that the men on them are not intended to appeal sexually to women. They aren't intended to appeal sexually to anyone. If anybody, man or woman, finds a male videogame protagonist to be sexually attractive, it's something that should most likely be chalked up to coincidence, rather than any intention on the part of the developers, especially since a number of developers explicitly state that they are not seeking to cater to women in any way.


I'm not so sure, Plaintiff (in regards to the beginning). Sexual and romantic fantasy are two different things.



Ideals of conventional beauty in Western society for both sexes, generally speaking, favour a slender build, clear skin, full lips, often a clean-shaven body and face. These are trends that anybody should be able to recognise from looking around the mall, or flipping through a clothing catalogue. Additionally, the models in such pictures pose passively, in a casual manner, often leaning against something. Their expressions, broadly speaking, fall into one of two categories: friendly, open and smiling, or an intense stare intended to seduce the audience. They are rarely, if ever, shown carrying weapons.


There's some truth to this, some not. The "clean-shaven" one is a lot more flexible. Or from what my Express emails tell me.


By contrast, video game protagonists are often unaturally big and brawny (Kratos, the guys from Gears of War). They are scarred, and often have facial hair or full-on beards. They are frequently older men, at least thirty. The most recent games I played had male protagonists approaching fifty. They do not pose in a passive, or casual manner, they are poised to fight, with their fists clenched, and they are often marching or leaning towards the viewer as if they intend to assault them. They are not making friendly or seductive expressions; they are sneering, glaring, or impassive. They are often wearing a weapon, or brandishing one directly at the viewer.

Video game protagonists are not designed to be sexy, they are most often designed to be appear threatening and intimidating. Some men and women find intimidation sexy, some probably even find being threatened with violence to be arousing. There's a kink for everything, but those particular kinks exist well outside the parameters of conventional Western ideas of what "sexy" is.

So while it may be conceivable that a hefty number of women go weak in the knees at the sight of Kratos, and I'm sure there are a few that do, it's not at all likely that devleopers had that goal in mind when designing him or any other video-game protagonist.

Whatever "the" female sexual fantasy is, I think we can reasonably argue that for most women, it probably doesn't involve strange, gigantic, scarred men charging up to them and punching them in the face. Buff and chiselled might be on the list, but a man can be both those things without looking anything like your average videogame protagonist.


You're talking about poses here, Plaintiff. Cover art. That's a specificity that wasn't being discussed. We can go that direction if you want, but it's discounting the in-game portrayal of the character (and if we ARE going that direction, I'll point to ME2 or DA:O's cover art)


I'm trying to work, so don't be offended if my responses are few and far between, people.

Modifié par EntropicAngel, 21 juin 2013 - 05:04 .

#273
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Posté 21 juin 2013 - 05:06

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KainD wrote...

Unless it's an asian game: 
Image IPB

Cover featuring 2 male protagonists from a fightning game. ^_^


Only you Kain, only you:P

#274
KainD
Posté 21 juin 2013 - 05:16

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EntropicAngel wrote...
Only you Kain, only you:P


I think I should've been born in Korea or Japan. :whistle:

#275
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 21 juin 2013 - 05:17

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keightdee wrote...

Here's the thing: your ignorance is not my responsibility. I know you want proof, I know you want hard data. You want bar graphs and statistics and theories tested in labs. I get that.

Think about what you're asking me here. You're saying, "You know, keightdee, I just don't believe you. The evidence of your eyes and the eyes of other people in this thread don't matter to me because they're not wearing labcoats and carrying a degree in a related field." (But wait! I am carrying a degree! Come back!) You're saying, "I could try to find this out for myself if I really cared, but I don't care, so I'm asking you to spend hours digging through your university's electronic journals for an article that directly addresses the topic we're discussing."

Ok. That takes a long time. Are you going to pay me for that time? I've got other things to do. And what happens when I find the right article? Are you really going to read all 40-odd pages of academic research and go, "Wow, they're right!" Because, frankly, I don't believe it. And anyway, what field should we even look in? There're so many! There's human sexuality, biology, women and gender studies, anthropology, sociology, history, maybe even literature??

Let's say I have found some interesting academic research. How would I link them to you? They're behind a paywall. Do you have access to JSTOR? Because I can hand you all the citations in the world, but if you can't access them they're meaningless.

Power, Desire, and Pleasure in Sexual FantasiesEileen L. Zurbriggen and Megan R. YostThe Journal of Sex Research , Vol. 41, No. 3 (Aug., 2004), pp. 288-300

Perils of the Princess: Gender and Genre in Video GamesSharon R. ShermanWestern Folklore , Vol. 56, No. 3/4 (Summer - Autumn, 1997), pp. 243-258

Women's Sexual Interests across the Ovulatory Cycle Depend on Primary Partner Developmental InstabilitySteven W. Gangestad, Randy Thornhill and Christine E. Garver-ApgarProceedings: Biological Sciences , Vol. 272, No. 1576 (Oct. 7, 2005), pp. 2023-2027

Listen. It's not my responsibility to teach you these things. I paid my dues (I'm still paying them in the form of student loans ;__;) by sitting in thousands of hours of classes learning about culture and gender. I've written hundreds of pages about culture and gender. I don't care if you're convinced. I don't care if you change your mind. I did the work because I wanted to. Now it's your turn.


Don't say such nonsense. Your extrapolating is far out of hand (the bolded is nothing but a bad insult). No one is asking for you to go digging through anything.

If the buff chisled male is not the female sexual fantasy, how is it that this is only recorded in closed journals in a closed system? Is there NO hard data for the public to find?

Have you heard of that study that most men think about sex every 7 seconds? I sure have, and I've seen many people mention it. It's a commonly known statistic (regardless of whether it's true or not). Far cry from saying the buff chisled male is not in fact the female sexual fantasy, which is NOT a "commonly known" statement. But you say it like it is.

It certainly isn't your responsibility to teach anyone anything. But, if you're going to make claims, it's absolutely your responsibility to show them out to be valid.
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