356 réponses à ce sujet

[keightdee]

EntropicAngel wrote...

f the buff chisled male is not the female sexual fantasy, how is it that this is only recorded in closed journals in a closed system? Is there NO hard data for the public to find?

Academic publishing is exclusive by design, that's why people derogatively refer to academia as an ivory tower.

[LinksOcarina]

keightdee wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

f the buff chisled male is not the female sexual fantasy, how is it that this is only recorded in closed journals in a closed system? Is there NO hard data for the public to find?

Academic publishing is exclusive by design, that's why people derogatively refer to academia as an ivory tower.

As someone in academia, it's more of a desire to read through it problem vs acessability. You can subscribe to a Psychology journal and its maybe $10 more than a magazine subscription, its just that so few people do.

Or hell, all you college kids look on the journal databases for articles on this gender issue through psychology, history, philosophy, and what have you. I guarentee there are some out there that you can find. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 21 juin 2013 - 05:55 .

[ejoslin]

What is interesting is I gave an example of a character who really was designed to appeal to women on both a sexual and emotional level, and I got told, repeatedly, that the character I named was not objectified because he also had (a lot) more to the story. But then I have to wonder why making a female your standard sexual ideal is objectifying but making a male your standard romantic ideal is not.

ETA: That's not to say I don't think there's an issue here.  As a woman gamer, I would love to have more content that appeals to me. Give me a strong, confident woman whose femininity is acknowledged, and I'm very happy.  My expectations are fairly low after several decades of gaming so BW does kind of blow me away with their inclusion here.

Second edit: I do understand that (some) people are drawing a distinction between whether a character adds more to the story than just pandering.  And actually, I do agree with this.  My point was that you can't draw male and female equivalents because you can't just gender flip and expect women to react the same way men do.

Modifié par ejoslin, 21 juin 2013 - 06:09 .

[Bekkael]

Azaron Nightblade wrote...

Chris Priestly wrote...

Just curious. How much do you think Angelina Jolie looks like her father Jon Voight?

Yep! I'll add Mr Bean's (Rowan Atkinson) daughter to that list of kids who look nothing like their father!

That young lady seems to have forgotten her pants....and a hairbrush. Otherwise, she is quite lovely. (It makes me wonder if her father had anything to say about her choice of outfit lol. My hubby would have locked our daughter in a closet if she dressed that way.)

[ejoslin]

Young men are the target audience, but the devs are probably limiting themselves on having such a small target yet a much larger audience they could probably draw in.

Back in the NES days, devs realized that there were girl gamers -- girls loved the Super Mario series. So some decided to try to aim some games at girls. The problem was that these primarily male teams had no clue what girls wanted -- they just thought they knew and made games which flopped. it wasn't because they didn't have a willing audience -- it's because the games did not appeal to that audience.

[Plaintiff]

ejoslin wrote...

What is interesting is I gave an example of a character who really was designed to appeal to women on both a sexual and emotional level, and I got told, repeatedly, that the character I named was not objectified because he also had (a lot) more to the story. But then I have to wonder why making a female your standard sexual ideal is objectifying but making a male your standard romantic ideal is not.

"Objectification" means treating a person as a thing. Things do not have emotions.

In social philosophy, objectification[/b] means treating a person as a thing, without regard to their dignity.According to the philosopher Martha Nussbaum, a person is objectified if they are treated:

- as a tool for another's purposes (instrumentality);
- as if lacking in agency or self-determination (denial of autonomy, inertness);
- as if owned by another (ownership);
- as if interchangeable (fungibility);
- as if permissible to damage or destroy (violability);
- as if there is no need for concern for their feelings and experiences (denial of subjectivity).

If attention is paid to a character's emotional level, then that character is not objectified. This is just speaking in broad terms. In a more practical sense, I would say there is a sliding scale of objectification. Even if all the characters in a group are objectified, they may not all be objectified to the same degree.

As you say, the character you mentioned was designed to appeal on both a sexual and emotional level, so by definition, he has not been objectified, at least not to the same degree that female characters often are.

For what it's worth, I think Bioware pays just as much attention to the emotional level of its female characters as it does for its male characters, and I wouldn't neccessarily say they are objectified. I still find the heavy emphasis on their appearance to be problematic.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 21 juin 2013 - 06:31 .

[ejoslin]

See, that's the problem though -- women cannot objectify men the way men objectify women because for the most part, what appeals to men is not what appeals to women.

So the female equivalent will most likely have to appeal to the feels, which adds a bit of humanity to the character.

[sandalisthemaker]

keightdee wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

But someone made the claim that buff, chisled males are not the primary female sexual fantasy, and I find that awfully sketchy so I asked for proof of this.

No one has given any.

Here's the thing: your ignorance is not my responsibility. I know you want proof, I know you want hard data. You want bar graphs and statistics and theories tested in labs. I get that.

Think about what you're asking me here. You're saying, "You know, keightdee, I just don't believe you. The evidence of your eyes and the eyes of other people in this thread don't matter to me because they're not wearing labcoats and carrying a degree in a related field." (But wait! I am carrying a degree! Come back!) You're saying, "I could try to find this out for myself if I really cared, but I don't care, so I'm asking you to spend hours digging through your university's electronic journals for an article that directly addresses the topic we're discussing."

Ok. That takes a long time. Are you going to pay me for that time? I've got other things to do. And what happens when I find the right article? Are you really going to read all 40-odd pages of academic research and go, "Wow, they're right!" Because, frankly, I don't believe it. And anyway, what field should we even look in? There're so many! There's human sexuality, biology, women and gender studies, anthropology, sociology, history, maybe even literature??

Let's say I have found some interesting academic research. How would I link them to you? They're behind a paywall. Do you have access to JSTOR? Because I can hand you all the citations in the world, but if you can't access them they're meaningless.

Power, Desire, and Pleasure in Sexual FantasiesEileen L. Zurbriggen and Megan R. YostThe Journal of Sex Research , Vol. 41, No. 3 (Aug., 2004), pp. 288-300

Perils of the Princess: Gender and Genre in Video GamesSharon R. ShermanWestern Folklore , Vol. 56, No. 3/4 (Summer - Autumn, 1997), pp. 243-258

Women's Sexual Interests across the Ovulatory Cycle Depend on Primary Partner Developmental InstabilitySteven W. Gangestad, Randy Thornhill and Christine E. Garver-ApgarProceedings: Biological Sciences , Vol. 272, No. 1576 (Oct. 7, 2005), pp. 2023-2027

Listen. It's not my responsibility to teach you these things. I paid my dues (I'm still paying them in the form of student loans ;__ by sitting in thousands of hours of classes learning about culture and gender. I've written hundreds of pages about culture and gender. I don't care if you're convinced. I don't care if you change your mind. I did the work because I wanted to. Now it's your turn.

You rock keightdee! 

[The Six Path of Pain]

Azaron Nightblade wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...
Flemeth was a great example in DA:O, and yet she was sexified in the sequel.  
There can still be (and there will still be) beautiful female characters such as Cassandra, but variety would be nice. The same goes for male characters.

Flemeth is also a powerful, shapeshifting Witch - I suspect she can appear pretty much anyway that she wants.
Also, you are forgetting Meredith from DA2 - who played a big role in the story, and wasn't exactly a princess.

Shapeshifter can't impersonate what they already are,in this case a human.So no she can't change her body type...confirmed by Morrigan herself.

[ejoslin]

The Six Path of Pain wrote...

Azaron Nightblade wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...
Flemeth was a great example in DA:O, and yet she was sexified in the sequel.  
There can still be (and there will still be) beautiful female characters such as Cassandra, but variety would be nice. The same goes for male characters.

Flemeth is also a powerful, shapeshifting Witch - I suspect she can appear pretty much anyway that she wants.
Also, you are forgetting Meredith from DA2 - who played a big role in the story, and wasn't exactly a princess.

Shapeshifter can't impersonate what they already are,in this case a human.So no she can't change her body type...confirmed by Morrigan herself.

Oh, yeh, if Flemeth could tart herself up and change her body at will, why would she need to take over her daughters?

I really hated how she was changed.  I liked the old hag who was obviously more than what she appeared -- the GILF Flemeth ticked me off.

[Tarek]

both men and women have biological and cultural and physiological standards of what they find the most attractive to them, no person is like another.

but as the "standards" get more basic these standards are shared by pretty much everyone on earth, I mean if a person has an eye on his nose would u find it attractive???? no one will its a biological indication that his genes are bad, but as you move on to cultural and personal standards this brings out the differences from minor (like eyebrow shape) to major (some tribes find obesity more attractive than slimness)

now probably as the smartest person alive on this planet I would say that its hard to make a universal standard AT this point in our cultural growth, as our civilizations moves toward a more unified culture such a feat would be more plausible (yet it will never be absolute)

in short, for now, the standard for women beauty is the slim super model big boobed nicely curved body (biological standards always apply mind you, too slim and men will start to lose interest) and for men its the muscular body with the wide shoulders, wide forehead and prominent bone features (like wide jaw, strong chin..etc) this is just a very general standard, cause other features like facial hair/or lack of, short/long hair, and big eyes, skin color ...etc might appeal to some people more than others.....

this would take a few hundred pages to explain in details and research and frankly what you should understand now is that men and women are both attracted to appearance at first, all the women that say they like a man's personalty or money or whatever first are full of it (sorry ladies we know you are slobbering over the hunky guy in the pool before you know his personality or his bank account size) same applies to men

we all look at appearance first cause its a genetic sign post that says I'm a great mate sleep with me, but since humans are more complex than say birds in their mating rituals, we will move on to stuff like personalty, beliefs, money, stats...and so on and so forth

in dragon age I would like my men to look like Greek gods and the women to look like Helen of troy XD

[FIN-Olmi]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

 It is a common trend in videogames (in media in general really) to make any and all female characters with important roles beautiful.  Even if they are background NPC's chances are they will be at least reasonably attractive. The only times they are not attractive are if they are meant to be disliked by the audience. Not necessarily villains, since the majority of female villains are portrayed as "sexy" and use their looks to their advantage.

It gets to the point where if female characters deviate at all from commonly held standards of beauty, they are (sometimes viciously) picked apart and criticized. Examples of this can be seen in this very forum.

Less emphasis tends to be placed on the appearance of male characters.  Men are allowed to be average looking and even downright ugly. The same cannot be said for female characters. This is a product of our society, in which sky high standards of beauty are placed on women, but not on men.

An example of what I am talking about that is DA related would be Loghain and Anora.




They are father and daughter, yet they look nothing alike. Anora is blonde and conventionally attractive/pretty, while Loghain has black hair and is not conventionally attractive. One would think that Anora would bear at least some resemblance to her father.  Why isn't her nose large and hooked, for example? Is it because she is female and has an important role in the story and therefore she *must* be attractive?  Is it because ruling alongside her is an option for male human nobles and again she *has* to be attractive for that reason?
 Alternatively, why doesn't Loghain bear more of a resemblance to his daughter? Why couldn't he be handsome? Is it because he is a (male) villain, and therefore he *must* be ugly? Is it because his ambition and quest for power trumps his physical appearance?

So, I am advocating for a greater spectrum of physical appearance for DA:I's characters. From the major players to the lowliest of NPC's.  Especially for women.  Let there be plain Janes and (gasp) conventionally un-attractive women with greater roles in the story. Flemeth was a great example in DA:O, and yet she was sexified in the sequel.  
There can still be (and there will still be) beautiful female characters such as Cassandra, but variety would be nice. The same goes for male characters.

You have such a heavy emphasis on the appearance of females but the same beutification applies to males. All the males in the games are made physically attractive.
All of the males in the game have athletic muscular body with visible muscles. There are no male characters that are burly or fat, contrary to real life.

Best example of this is Oghren. He is a drunk, has been for years. Shouldn't he have a beer belly. Shouldn't he look like this:


But instead he has very fit and muscular body with abs and everything like the well disciplined soldier Sten.

sandalisthemaker wrote.
Is it because she is female and has an important role in the story and therefore she *must* be attractive?

Is it because he is a male and can be seen without clothes and therefore he *must* be attractive?

Edit: Changed the text to be less agressive. Some idiot didn't read the whole text he was referring to and started instantly to write a rage reply.

Modifié par FIN-Olmi, 21 juin 2013 - 08:53 .

[ejoslin]

The standard of beauty for women, today, is new, and in fact is not realistic. Most women cannot attain this ideal -- and I have noticed that many women who DO have that figure have had their breasts augmented. There are exceptions, of course, but it's not the norm.

Even in advertisements, the most beautiful of people -- models -- the ones who make money because of their looks, are altered in photoshop. Even the best looking people are not good looking enough.

This leads me to believe that the standards beyond symmetry and perhaps waist/hip ratio, are probably, in a large part, cultural.

Edit: The real shame of this is that young women are constantly being given the message that they just are not good enough.  No one can be pretty enough, slim enough, whatever.  And when they strive for an unrealistic standard, that's not good for anyone.  Beauty really is in the eye of the beholder, and I really do wish women weren't judged so harshly on their looks.

Modifié par ejoslin, 21 juin 2013 - 09:00 .

[Azaron Nightblade]

ejoslin wrote...

The Six Path of Pain wrote...

Azaron Nightblade wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...
Flemeth was a great example in DA:O, and yet she was sexified in the sequel.  
There can still be (and there will still be) beautiful female characters such as Cassandra, but variety would be nice. The same goes for male characters.

Flemeth is also a powerful, shapeshifting Witch - I suspect she can appear pretty much anyway that she wants.
Also, you are forgetting Meredith from DA2 - who played a big role in the story, and wasn't exactly a princess.

Shapeshifter can't impersonate what they already are,in this case a human.So no she can't change her body type...confirmed by Morrigan herself.

Oh, yeh, if Flemeth could tart herself up and change her body at will, why would she need to take over her daughters?

I really hated how she was changed.  I liked the old hag who was obviously more than what she appeared -- the GILF Flemeth ticked me off.

I always figured that's how she kept her immortality, while she can alter her form - she can't change what she really is underneath it.
Similar to Darth Zash on SWTOR for those familiar with the storyline.
Also, Flemeth is a shapeshifter with centuries (possibly millenia) more experience than Morrigan, automatically saying that she can't do something because her daughter can't do it is... well, not entirely fair.
Or it could've even been a D&D glamor style spell, or some other kind of illusion.
That being said, I didn't like her new look either, not at all - she looked like she got stuck in a transformation between the old Flemeth and an anime villainess, or Sorceress Ultimecia from FFVIII that someone mentioned earlier. 

[SeismicGravy]

Chris Priestly wrote...

Just curious. How much do you think Angelina Jolie looks like her father Jon Voight?

I don't know, I'm usually too busy looking at Angelina Jolie to notice.

[Grog Muffins]

FIN-Olmi wrote...

You have such a heavy emphasis on the appearance of females but the same beutification applies to males. All the males in the games are made physically attractive.
All of the males in the game have athletic muscular body with visible muscles. There are no male characters that are burly or fat, contrary to real life.

Best example of this is Oghren. He is a drunk, has been for years. Shouldn't he have a beer belly. Shouldn't he look like this:
 
-snip-

But instead he has very fit and muscular body with abs and everything like the well disciplined soldier Sten.

That's not entirely true. There were a few NPCs, both male and female in Origins that were fat (the tavern keep in Redcliffe and the cook in Eamon's estate in Denerim come to mind). There were also some other NPCs that appeared to have a bit more going on in their gut than other characters. Granted, these were NPCs, and not even important ones at that, but they were still there.

And, to be fair, Oghren, while being drunk off his ass, was still a warrior. He couldn't pull out a weapon and start fighting anyone in the streets without being stripped of his caste and thrown out of Orzammar, but I doubt he was prohibited from entering the Provings or going to some training hall and whacking manequins with stick swords. He always wanted to go after Branka so I'd like to think he kept himself in some semblance of shape (as much as his drinking would allow, at least) for the moment when someone would listen to him and mount a search for her.

[sandalisthemaker]

@ FIN-Olmi
You are right, my OP elaborated more on the objectification of females than males, but this is because male objectification is much more rare.  And pretty non- existant in videogames. I'll explain.
Muscular, strong men are usually meant to be idealized and not seen as objects of lust by the audience because the primary target audience of videogames is still straight men. Women are meant to be sexy for that same reason.  
Does male objectification exist? Yes, but it is rare.  An example that I stated previously would be this guy:



The "Zesty guy."  He appears in salad dressing ads. His only purpose is to be sexy and attract women (and gay men as an aside) and make them want to buy Kraft salad dressing.  Note that he is not portrayed as powerful or intimidating the way videogame protagonists are on box covers. He has sultry "bedroom eyes" and he is relaxed and reclining, not angry or serious the way male videogame protags are usully portrayed.
Male objectification is mostly humorous and light-hearted and played for laughs. This guy is pretty cheeky in the commercials and you can tell that he doesn't take himself too seriously. Yet still, the marketing strategy is quite successful, and he really does make many women and gay men swoon.
This type of male objectification does not happen in videogames.
Female objectification is rampant however.

Modifié par sandalisthemaker, 21 juin 2013 - 09:51 .

[Mike 9987]

Would you like females to look like this?

[sandalisthemaker]

Mike 9987 wrote...

Would you like females to look like this?

Yes, *some* of them.
I am advocating for more variety in male and female appearance. I said so in the last paragraph of my OP.

[SeismicGravy]

Mike 9987 wrote...

Would you like females to look like this?

[Genshie]

KainD wrote...

I personally played female characters through the whole ME trilogy, and started playing female characters since DA2 as well, because I am a person that cares about aesthetics of their character and character creators in these games do not allow me to make an attractive male to my tastes. The last bioware game in which I could make an attractive male was DA:O, and only an elf.
Also ME and DA voices of male characters do not appeal to my tastes.

I expect that I will be playing a female character in DA:I as well.

I too have found this to be difficult however, it is not completely impossible to do. I am mainly a console gamer so I completely understand where you are coming from. I have been able to produce at least two good looking male characters one that I call my pissed off black Shep in ME2 (and thankfully he transfered just fine if not even better into ME3) and my casanova Hawke. (May post pics here later)

Modifié par Genshie, 21 juin 2013 - 10:21 .

[Mike 9987]

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the new queen of Ferelden

Modifié par Mike 9987, 21 juin 2013 - 10:23 .