356 réponses à ce sujet

[KainD]

Destiny_1989 wrote...

- most men want women to be beautiful
- most women overlook men's physical aspect in favor of personality

- Most people are straight. 
- Including more different faces is easier than including non-straight content, I think.

[sandalisthemaker]

FaWa wrote...

 FEMALE ****ING DWARVES 

If Bioware didn't have gender bias, they'd be in DA2. I read that interview with Gaider about not repelling female gamers. But seriously what seperates female dwarves from male dwarves?

This is deeply rooted in the fact that many gaming companies today assume the straight male gamer defines the characters they like by these qualities:

Male characters must be badasses
Female characters must be hot 

(Note that badass and hot don't have to be mutually exclusive. Ex: Morrigan Ex: Garrus)

So. Female Dwarves don't fit what most straight male gamers would consider hot. However, Male Dwarves fit the whole 'badass' thing. So despite the fact that male dwarves have as much sexual appeal as their female counterparts, the females get the shaft because straight dudes don't want to ****** to them. Sorry, its the cold hearted truth. Wanna hear it again?

They cut female dwarves because there was no point in making a female character that straight dudes couldn't ****** to. 

I definitely think Bioware is trying to change this though. Notice how sexy Varric was in the trailer? That's Bioware making some changes. I think we're done with the Carth-esque male LIs for a while now. They're going to branch out because at this point I'd assume their pretty tired of writing the same **** for each straight human male LI. 

Zevran is just a ****ing stereoype. Its as if they put a loud angry black woman in the game. Never did the Fenris romance so no comment on him. 


This isn't a "men suck, womyn ftw" post. I'm a guy (gay, but still have a penis) and not being attracted to the woman of video gaming has really made me see how transparent it all is. 


But Bioware is by far the best gaming company when it comes to this. I suggest if you haven't already done so to read this article. David Gaider makes some great points. 
http://www.pcgamer.c...name=0&ns_fee=0

I sincerely hope that wasn't the reason female dwarves weren't included.
In regards to everything else, I agree with you.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

^ That's complete bull They didn't have female dwarves in DA2 because they didn't get around to creating a model for them. Their absence is no more elaborate a scheme than that.

@OP Aveline is not considered by very many to be conventionally beautiful. In fact, there was a lot of forum sneering about her appearance...probably by straight male gamers.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 20 juin 2013 - 03:40 .

[KainD]

I personally played female characters through the whole ME trilogy, and started playing female characters since DA2 as well, because I am a person that cares about aesthetics of their character and character creators in these games do not allow me to make an attractive male to my tastes. The last bioware game in which I could make an attractive male was DA:O, and only an elf.
Also ME and DA voices of male characters do not appeal to my tastes.

I expect that I will be playing a female character in DA:I as well.

[FaWa]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

^ That's complete bull They didn't have female dwarves in DA2 because they didn't get around to creating a model for them. Their absence is no more elaborate a scheme than that.

What prioritized the other 5 race/gender combinations? 

Sorry, maybe I should've clarified more. I know the official answer to why the Female Dwarves were cut is that there wasn't enough time. Which is fair enough. But we have to examine what prioritized everyone else. 

[Dirgegun]

FaWa wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

^ That's complete bull They didn't have female dwarves in DA2 because they didn't get around to creating a model for them. Their absence is no more elaborate a scheme than that.

What prioritized the other 5 race/gender combinations? 

Sorry, maybe I should've clarified more. I know the official answer to why the Female Dwarves were cut is that there wasn't enough time. Which is fair enough. But we have to examine what prioritized everyone else. 

If you're going to talk about prioritising, then you have to actually look at why humans and elves were prioritised. Does Hawke deal with a lot of dwarves other than Varric, his brother, Sandal, and Bodahn? No, he doesn't. He doesn't even go to the dwarven occupied areas of the deep roads. He does, however, deal with a lot of humans and the Dalish elves all through the story. Thus, obviously, these two races got prioritised.

I suppose you could argue that Hawke fights dwarves in the carta, but random fights and cannon fodder wouldn't make female dwarves a priority if they have to make whole new models for them. And, while I like Dragon Age 2, it was rushed out the door. 

[FaWa]

Dirgegun wrote...

FaWa wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

^ That's complete bull They didn't have female dwarves in DA2 because they didn't get around to creating a model for them. Their absence is no more elaborate a scheme than that.

What prioritized the other 5 race/gender combinations? 

Sorry, maybe I should've clarified more. I know the official answer to why the Female Dwarves were cut is that there wasn't enough time. Which is fair enough. But we have to examine what prioritized everyone else. 

If you're going to talk about prioritising, then you have to actually look at why humans and elves were prioritised. Does Hawke deal with a lot of dwarves other than Varric, his brother, Sandal, and Bodahn? No, he doesn't. He doesn't even go to the dwarven occupied areas of the deep roads. He does, however, deal with a lot of humans and the Dalish elves all through the story. Thus, obviously, these two races got prioritised.

I suppose you could argue that Hawke fights dwarves in the carta, but random fights and cannon fodder wouldn't make female dwarves a priority if they have to make whole new models for them. And, while I like Dragon Age 2, it was rushed out the door. 

Its interesting how the situation could be interpreted:

There were no female dwarves because there were no models 
There were no models because there were no/few female dwarves. 

You are arguing the latter. But obviously there was a concious to cut dwarves a lot in DA2, and god forbid we can't have our badass dwarf who spits out one liners (And Bodahn+Sandal). Are you saying that Bioware realized they hadn't written any female Dwarves and then said "meh, **** it. No point to make models, we barely have enough time as it is" But why would they do that if female dwarves were so prevelant in DAO? (You could play as one ffs) I truly believe the time constraints EA put on Bioware made them have to cut something, and obviously that thing would be the "ugly" girls. Again, god forbid you cut the badass drunk dwarf. (Seriously what a new character archetype that has never been explored ever). In the begininng of development, they chose to focus on male dwarf characters. 

But in the end, we agree that timing and EA are the main reasons Female Dwarves were cut. And so with this time extension, they'll be in DA3. 

Modifié par FaWa, 20 juin 2013 - 04:13 .

[Dirgegun]

FaWa wrote...

Dirgegun wrote...

FaWa wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

^ That's complete bull They didn't have female dwarves in DA2 because they didn't get around to creating a model for them. Their absence is no more elaborate a scheme than that.

What prioritized the other 5 race/gender combinations? 

Sorry, maybe I should've clarified more. I know the official answer to why the Female Dwarves were cut is that there wasn't enough time. Which is fair enough. But we have to examine what prioritized everyone else. 

If you're going to talk about prioritising, then you have to actually look at why humans and elves were prioritised. Does Hawke deal with a lot of dwarves other than Varric, his brother, Sandal, and Bodahn? No, he doesn't. He doesn't even go to the dwarven occupied areas of the deep roads. He does, however, deal with a lot of humans and the Dalish elves all through the story. Thus, obviously, these two races got prioritised.

I suppose you could argue that Hawke fights dwarves in the carta, but random fights and cannon fodder wouldn't make female dwarves a priority if they have to make whole new models for them. And, while I like Dragon Age 2, it was rushed out the door. 

Its interesting how the situation could be interpreted:

There were no female dwarves because there were no models 
There were no models because there were no/few female dwarves. 

You are arguing the latter. But obviously there was a concious to cut dwarves a lot in DA2, and god forbid we can't have our badass dwarf who spits out one liners (And Bodahn+Sandal). Are you saying that Bioware realized they hadn't written any female Dwarves and then said "meh, **** it. No point to make models, we barely have enough time as it is" But why would they do that if female dwarves were so prevelant in DAO? (You could play as one ffs) I truly believe the time constraints EA put on Bioware made them have to cut something, and obviously that thing would be the "ugly" girls. Again, god forbid you cut the badass drunk dwarf. (Seriously what a new character archetype that has never been explored ever). In the begininng of development, they chose to focus on male dwarf characters. 

But in the end, we agree that timing and EA are the main reasons Female Dwarves were cut. And so with this time extension, they'll be in DA3. 

How I see it is that dwarves simply didn't have a huge part in the story, because they weren't needed for Hawke's story. Every race doesn't need to be important all the time. In Origins they were a large part of the story because they were one of the races you recruited for your army. In DA2, however, it was more focused on Mages, Templars, and Quanari with the Dalish elves being a faction we interacted with a lot because of Flemeth, Merrill, and Feynriel.

Edit: And I don't think there's a focus on males just because they chose to have Oghren and Varric as characters.

Modifié par Dirgegun, 20 juin 2013 - 04:33 .

[Rixatrix]

FaWa wrote...

 FEMALE ****ING DWARVES 

If Bioware didn't have gender bias, they'd be in DA2. I read that interview with Gaider about not repelling female gamers. But seriously what seperates female dwarves from male dwarves?

This is deeply rooted in the fact that many gaming companies today assume the straight male gamer defines the characters they like by these qualities:

Male characters must be badasses
Female characters must be hot 

(Note that badass and hot don't have to be mutually exclusive. Ex: Morrigan Ex: Garrus)

So. Female Dwarves don't fit what most straight male gamers would consider hot. However, Male Dwarves fit the whole 'badass' thing. So despite the fact that male dwarves have as much sexual appeal as their female counterparts, the females get the shaft because straight dudes don't want to ****** to them. Sorry, its the cold hearted truth. Wanna hear it again?

They cut female dwarves because there was no point in making a female character that straight dudes couldn't ****** to. 

I definitely think Bioware is trying to change this though. Notice how sexy Varric was in the trailer? That's Bioware making some changes. I think we're done with the Carth-esque male LIs for a while now. They're going to branch out because at this point I'd assume their pretty tired of writing the same **** for each straight human male LI. 

Zevran is just a ****ing stereoype. Its as if they put a loud angry black woman in the game. Never did the Fenris romance so no comment on him. 


This isn't a "men suck, womyn ftw" post. I'm a guy (gay, but still have a penis) and not being attracted to the woman of video gaming has really made me see how transparent it all is. 


But Bioware is by far the best gaming company when it comes to this. I suggest if you haven't already done so to read this article. David Gaider makes some great points. 
http://www.pcgamer.c...name=0&ns_fee=0

Great post.

[Enigmatick]

BlueMoonSeraphim wrote...

FaWa wrote...

 FEMALE ****ING DWARVES 

If Bioware didn't have gender bias, they'd be in DA2. I read that interview with Gaider about not repelling female gamers. But seriously what seperates female dwarves from male dwarves?

This is deeply rooted in the fact that many gaming companies today assume the straight male gamer defines the characters they like by these qualities:

Male characters must be badasses
Female characters must be hot 

(Note that badass and hot don't have to be mutually exclusive. Ex: Morrigan Ex: Garrus)

So. Female Dwarves don't fit what most straight male gamers would consider hot. However, Male Dwarves fit the whole 'badass' thing. So despite the fact that male dwarves have as much sexual appeal as their female counterparts, the females get the shaft because straight dudes don't want to ****** to them. Sorry, its the cold hearted truth. Wanna hear it again?

They cut female dwarves because there was no point in making a female character that straight dudes couldn't ****** to. 

I definitely think Bioware is trying to change this though. Notice how sexy Varric was in the trailer? That's Bioware making some changes. I think we're done with the Carth-esque male LIs for a while now. They're going to branch out because at this point I'd assume their pretty tired of writing the same **** for each straight human male LI. 

Zevran is just a ****ing stereoype. Its as if they put a loud angry black woman in the game. Never did the Fenris romance so no comment on him. 


This isn't a "men suck, womyn ftw" post. I'm a guy (gay, but still have a penis) and not being attracted to the woman of video gaming has really made me see how transparent it all is. 


But Bioware is by far the best gaming company when it comes to this. I suggest if you haven't already done so to read this article. David Gaider makes some great points. 
http://www.pcgamer.c...name=0&ns_fee=0

Great post.

But completely wrong.

[keightdee]

Morocco Mole wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Which gender is more likely to be portrayed as sexy? Which gender is more likely to be designed with looks being paramount?

Both honestly. Women get it a lot. But men are just as often portrayed as muscular Adonises with a physique carved out of stone.

The difference there is that the "Adonis" physiques in male characters that you're referencing are a male power fantasy, not your common straight woman's sexual fantasy, whereas "sexy" female characters are straight male sexual fantasies and not female power fantasies. (And anyway, should "we" be catering just to straight people? Duh, no. And Bioware doesn't, bless them.)

Why does sex vs power matter in character design, anyway? Because they serve different purposes. And subverting those purposes, those tropes? Makes for some awesome ****. "Sexy" characters are meant to be appreciated, gazed at. Their role is passive. They have no agency within this scenario. This is why Isabela is a brilliant, fantastic, precious gem of a character, because she snatches agency from the hands of people who would seek to wrest it from her and, ugh, Isabela, my pirate queen.

"Powerful" characters are meant to do, they're active. They're out there changing things (for good or ill) with their big muscly muscles and phallic guns and animu swords and sheer force of will. I've seen people in similarly-themed threads bring up Kratos. "Look at this guy!" they say. "He's so unrealistic! Nobody looks like that!" You know why? Take it from the mouth of David Jaffe, the guy who created him: "[Kratos] may not totally feel at home in Ancient Greece from a costume standpoint, I think he achieves the greater purpose which is to give players a character who they can play who really does just let them go nuts and unleash the nasty fantasies that they have in their head." (Source)

This perceived turnabout is not fair play. These cliches in character design uphold negative, destructive aspects of popular culture. By not actively opposing these forces, we only further entrench them.

(If that was a little too "Gender in Media 101" for you, well, someone should have hidden the wine.)

Modifié par keightdee, 20 juin 2013 - 06:57 .

[Androme]

Loghain and Anora were bad examples. Loghain is a battle-hardened nationalist and veteran, he is also old and a very practical man. Anora is a queen, young and most likely is aware of the fact that she most uphold a public image (I think it's called public image atleast).

[Boycott Bioware]

I think noble women should be fat, it is because they don't do anything, live in luxury and eat, playing in the forbidden garden and eat, listen to music and dancing then eat...they eat a lot. Look at British royalty, look at the drawing and pictures, most drawing and pictures of princesses are faked, they are fat. Beautiful princesses is a common fantasy in most culture, while in reality they are fat. i don't say being fat is not beautiful, it is depended on a person view about what is beautiful. Of course Princess Diana was not fat, but it is because she live in modern time, there is diet course and so on, but medieval princesses are mostly fat. So Anora should be fat.

How about Elissa Cousland? Well she is a trained warrior, it is fine if she's not fat, but she must have some muscles

[Rixatrix]

Well said, keightdee.

[Fredward]

keightdee wrote...
The difference there is that the "Adonis" physiques in male characters that you're referencing are a male power fantasy, not your common straight woman's sexual fantasy, whereas as "sexy" female characters are straight male sexual fantasies and not female power fantasies. (And anyway, should "we" be catering just to straight people? Duh, no. And Bioware doesn't, bless them.)

Curious; what is the female power fantasy?



Might just be me but I haven't found any of the female companions all that attractive. And very few of the men. Anora was conventionally attractive but she almost seems like the exception. Though I do agree men are apparently better to hit with the ugly stick than women.

[bleetman]

keightdee wrote...

The difference there is that the "Adonis" physiques in male characters that you're referencing are a male power fantasy, not your common straight woman's sexual fantasy, whereas "sexy" female characters are straight male sexual fantasies and not female power fantasies.

Essentially. Which is where the whole 'men are just as sexualised in gaming' thing sort of falls apart. Forgive my crude, it's-8am-already-and-I've-yet-to-sleep wording, but male characters are oft designed to be something we're supposed to want to be. Female characters are designed to be something we're supposed to want to ****. That's the difference. That's the problem.

See also.

Modifié par bleetman, 20 juin 2013 - 07:24 .

[Fishy]

Feel like trophy wife material. Good looking people giving you attention make you feel more important. It's a fantaisies of many people and of men. Same goes with movies. It's all about the power. It's superficial like that and it sell.

You empathize and care more about people that you wish you could be. In American culture anyway. I guess. Just look at the level of narcissism on facebook.

I would love to see an ugly/plain romance option for a male protagonist. If i liked her character .. I would romance her. Period.

Modifié par Suprez30, 20 juin 2013 - 07:26 .

[Fredward]

^^ That video made me realize a lot of stuff too. Also interesting to note I've been watching a lot of Sarkeesian's videos on youtube lately and instead of getting suggestions that point to more of her videos I get videos that are thinly disguised misogynistic rants.

Way to prove the point guys. <_<

Modifié par Foopydoopydoo, 20 juin 2013 - 07:26 .

[Peer of the Empire]

Real world society is how people work, and game reflects that, not least for market share

Anora is the descendant of royalty, and the ablest men marry the prettiest girls

Modifié par Peer of the Empire, 20 juin 2013 - 07:58 .

[JediBeagle]

Interesting topic! Good to see gender roles and stereotypes are being discussed.

In the case of Anora and Loghain I would assume creating a family resemblance was secondary to creating two faces that fit the characters personalities. Also doesn't Arl Eamon state that Anora has inherited her mother's good looks? Perhaps she simply favours her mother in her appearance. I always assumed that Simon Templeman (Loghain's voice actor) was used as a model for Loghain's face as they carry a resemblance but I could be wrong.

I always understood that Anora is beautiful because in some ways the plot requires her to be so. A relatively young beautiful unmarried queen will seem more interesting to characters like Alistair and the male human noble warden. After all you have to persuade Alistair to marry his half brother's widow. Her coloration (blond hair and blue eyes) can be seen as signs of innocence which contrasts with her true calculative and somewhat ruthless nature. They are also considered highly desirable in the modern western standards of beauty which again supports the fact that she is supposed to appear beautiful. Perhaps her beauty also makes it all the more hard for female characters in romance with Alistair to allow them to marry even for political reasons.  Anora's beauty ads dimension into the game and brings with it uncertainty and even jealousy that a plane or ugly Anora might not create.

We also have examples of ugly female characters in the games. Often times they are ugly on the inside and that is reflected on the outside. It's a practise also used in male characters and effective when you are dealing with small side characters that don't get much introduction through dialog. An example could be the female mercenary in DA2 who finds Seamus Dumar before Hawke. Also who is ugly and who is beautiful is a matter of opinion to some degree. Some might find all dwarves (male and female) unattractive as they do not conform to western beauty standards.

As far as Loghain goes his lack of beauty makes him look more like a villain. Video games have their own traditions and stereotypes that have worked for them for a long time. Often times stereotypical presentations of characters are used simply to create the type of feeling the writers want the players to feel. They want us to envy and desire Anora and dislike or even hate Loghain for plot reasons. The fastest way of getting us there is through visuals. Certainly the writing is what truly makes the characters but their appearance needs to have a function.

That being said I do support having less traditionally attractive women and men brought more into the spotlight in a more favourable light especially as love interests. I suppose we get to do this with creating our own protagonists to some degree. All in all to me the most important thing in all this is that a character's appearance lends something to their personality or character development to some degree. It should fit them for more reasons than just for them to look beautiful/handsome.

Modifié par JediBeagle, 20 juin 2013 - 07:36 .

[TexasToast712]

While I get what the OP is saying, I found Anora to be ugly as sin.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

FaWa wrote...

Its interesting how the situation could be interpreted:

There were no female dwarves because there were no models 
There were no models because there were no/few female dwarves. 

You are arguing the latter. But obviously there was a concious to cut dwarves a lot in DA2, and god forbid we can't have our badass dwarf who spits out one liners (And Bodahn+Sandal). Are you saying that Bioware realized they hadn't written any female Dwarves and then said "meh, **** it. No point to make models, we barely have enough time as it is" But why would they do that if female dwarves were so prevelant in DAO? (You could play as one ffs) I truly believe the time constraints EA put on Bioware made them have to cut something, and obviously that thing would be the "ugly" girls. Again, god forbid you cut the badass drunk dwarf. (Seriously what a new character archetype that has never been explored ever). In the begininng of development, they chose to focus on male dwarf characters. 

But in the end, we agree that timing and EA are the main reasons Female Dwarves were cut. And so with this time extension, they'll be in DA3. 

Oh dear Maker...

You realise that male models are recyled far more frequently than female models, right? Irrespective of species? How often is your party attacked by a band of all-male enemies compared to all-female enemies, or even half-half, despite Dragon-Age's character creation claim that the genders are more or less equally represented in the world?

It has absolutely nothing to do with how attractive or unattractive the female models are, and has everything to do with male models being the stock standard default, as they usually are in games. So you can cry sexism as much as you like and I'll even agree with you to a point, but for the love of Andraste stop making it out as though the absence of female dwarves has anything to do with how sexually appealing people think they are. You're barking up the wrong damn tree.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

9TailsFox wrote...

franciscoamell wrote...

Aveline is an important female character and she's ugly. Imo at least.

As is Marethari. And Bethany depending on your Hawke's look.

You are ugly.She is perfect the [way] she is.

I concur.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 20 juin 2013 - 08:12 .

[TexasToast712]

9TailsFox wrote...

franciscoamell wrote...

Aveline is an important female character and she's ugly. Imo at least.

As is Marethari. And Bethany depending on your Hawke's look.

You are ugly.She is perfect the they she is.

Proud to say Im one of the few people who was pissed we couldnt romance Aveline.

[Ophir147]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

9TailsFox wrote...

franciscoamell wrote...

Aveline is an important female character and she's ugly. Imo at least.

As is Marethari. And Bethany depending on your Hawke's look.

You are ugly.She is perfect the [way] she is.

*big image snip*

I concur.

Fan-art schman-art.

Aveline was purposefully designed to appear masculine and unattractive so they would be able to put a relatively young character in game that people wouldn't make a stink over not being able to romance.

They have a habit with this, making characters they don't want you to romance being physically unattractive (Sten's bulldog face) or socially repulsive (Oghren), and Aveline is a combination of both. It's one of the reasons I love the character, honestly.