356 réponses à ce sujet

[Vilegrim]

Azaron Nightblade wrote...

ag99 wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

And everyone in Origins had brown, rotting teeth

 thas because i dont think they had the luxure of brushing their theeth in the middle ages....

Strawberries.
If you could afford them. 
Or at least that's something I've heard somewhere, not sure how accurate it is given the sweetness of strawberries.

It was a sign of being rich to have rotting teeth.  In the Elizabethan Court people painted their teeth black, as it implied they could afford sugar from the new world. 

Peasants ate bread and some meat, with vegetables.  The richer you where the more fruit, more meat and less veg and bread you ate, which was worse for you all round, you ended up with 'digestive issues' feeling lethagaric and rotten teeth. 

Taking the country air made people feel better because in their country estates they ate more vegtables, as the food was fresh and not the rotten junk that was sold in the cities.

[LinksOcarina]

FaWa wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

^ That's complete bull They didn't have female dwarves in DA2 because they didn't get around to creating a model for them. Their absence is no more elaborate a scheme than that.

What prioritized the other 5 race/gender combinations? 

Sorry, maybe I should've clarified more. I know the official answer to why the Female Dwarves were cut is that there wasn't enough time. Which is fair enough. But we have to examine what prioritized everyone else. 

Well, male and female humans and elves are common in the game, since your companions take up those slots a lot.

You think that has nothing to do with it?

[LinksOcarina]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

keightdee wrote...
The difference there is that the "Adonis" physiques in male characters that you're referencing are a male power fantasy, not your common straight woman's sexual fantasy, whereas as "sexy" female characters are straight male sexual fantasies and not female power fantasies. (And anyway, should "we" be catering just to straight people? Duh, no. And Bioware doesn't, bless them.)

Curious; what is the female power fantasy?

I asked a friend of mine this, she told me Commander Shepard and how she was portrayed made her an ideal power fantasy, where she was capable without gender being involved.

I would have to agree with her.

[Beerfish]

Video games really are even a lot less in this regard to tv programs.

[garrusfan1]

two words sex sells. but what about flemeth in DAO she gave me the shivers. also wynne wasn't exactly ugly but beautiful either. the dalish keeper in the dalish origin and the keeper in DA2 was ugly. also many relatives look nothing alike. my father and me look nothing alike but my brother and his dad look a lot alike. but seriously do you want all the female characters to be ugly. I would like a 75% hot and 25% ugly ratio

[Azaron Nightblade]

Destiny_1989 wrote...


Seriously though, in the context of the game world, taking into account the armours that these people wear on a daily basis, the buff body models aren't a stretch. They need to at least appear like they don't need help moving. Real life is one thing, the game universe is another. It would be a good idea to have different body types for each class in theory, but in practice, that takes a lot of resources that could be used somewhere else. Sometimes, sacrificing realism isn't all that bad (especially if armour or clothing abscures the offending realism glitch for 90% of the game).

I agree and actually there is kind of a real world equivalent for that, professional soldiers.
They also train with a heavy load of equipment such as kevlar, supplies, spare ammo and of course their weapons - and most of them are pretty buff.
So it's definitely not unreasonable to assume that a professional warrior in Dragon Age, where violence is an every day occurance would be any less, especially since most of them have to get up close and personal and swing around a heavy piece of steel that will tire them very quickly if they don't stay in shape.

[Thetford]

ejoslin wrote...

And actually, as a female gamer, I'm not so sure that women are that much different than men in the "power fantasy" think that is being described. If a woman gamer is given a choice between playing a sexy, lithe character and a dumpy one, most would probably choose the sexy one. And most would probably find the very muscular men visually appealing.

One just has to look at firemen calendars or Chipendale dancers, or other men used for female pleasure, women can be equally as shallow as men. If you watch TV shows that cater for women as the demographics, the female leads always date attractive men.

The same aspiration argument can be used for women also, because Barbie dolls aren't targetted at boys. Both the male triangle and the female hourglass are both to be desired and aspired, but do most people have them? 

[Azaron Nightblade]

garrusfan1 wrote...

two words sex sells. but what about flemeth in DAO she gave me the shivers. also wynne wasn't exactly ugly but beautiful either. the dalish keeper in the dalish origin and the keeper in DA2 was ugly. also many relatives look nothing alike. my father and me look nothing alike but my brother and his dad look a lot alike. but seriously do you want all the female characters to be ugly. I would like a 75% hot and 25% ugly ratio

At the end of the day it's still a fantasy, an escape from reality - so I'm with you there, I definitely wouldn't them all to be ugly.
If we're so set on turning it into a copy of real life you might as well get rid of dragons and magic as well, and the moment someone gets a clean strike in with that big sword of them it's time for the game over screen to appear - because you'll either be dead or out of the action for the rest of the game while you go through months/years of painful revalidation. 

[Azaron Nightblade]

Thetford wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

And actually, as a female gamer, I'm not so sure that women are that much different than men in the "power fantasy" think that is being described. If a woman gamer is given a choice between playing a sexy, lithe character and a dumpy one, most would probably choose the sexy one. And most would probably find the very muscular men visually appealing.

One just has to look at firemen calendars or Chipendale dancers, or other men used for female pleasure, women can be equally as shallow as men. If you watch TV shows that cater for women as the demographics, the female leads always date attractive men.

And usually they are of the bad boy variety or filthy rich like doctors and lawyers - or a combination thereof.

[Mr.House]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

keightdee wrote...
The difference there is that the "Adonis" physiques in male characters that you're referencing are a male power fantasy, not your common straight woman's sexual fantasy, whereas as "sexy" female characters are straight male sexual fantasies and not female power fantasies. (And anyway, should "we" be catering just to straight people? Duh, no. And Bioware doesn't, bless them.)

Curious; what is the female power fantasy?

I asked a friend of mine this, she told me Commander Shepard and how she was portrayed made her an ideal power fantasy, where she was capable without gender being involved.

I would have to agree with her.

Too bad she looks like a twig.

[garrusfan1]

also tallis was not beautiful at all I mean her face was horrible

[garrusfan1]

Filament wrote...

bleetman wrote...

keightdee wrote...

The difference there is that the "Adonis" physiques in male characters that you're referencing are a male power fantasy, not your common straight woman's sexual fantasy, whereas "sexy" female characters are straight male sexual fantasies and not female power fantasies.

Essentially. Which is where the whole 'men are just as sexualised in gaming' thing sort of falls apart. Forgive my crude, it's-8am-already-and-I've-yet-to-sleep wording, but male characters are oft designed to be something we're supposed to want to be. Female characters are designed to be something we're supposed to want to ****. That's the difference. That's the problem.

See also.

I'm liking thanking God for this Jimquisition guy more and more.

bleetman that might have been true 10 to 20 years ago but women are almost 50% of the gaming community so gaming companies cater to them as well now

[bleetman]

garrusfan1 wrote...

bleetman that might have been true 10 to 20 years ago but women are almost 50% of the gaming community so gaming companies cater to them as well now

Yeah, the way in which the industry repeated tries to hide its female characters in marketing, goes out of its way to ignore their opinion and tells developers "Well, we don't want to publish it because that's not going to succeed. You can't have a female character in games. It has to be a male character, simple as that" is clearly one that caters to its female audience.

At best, some gaming companies have just got around to acknowledging they even exist.

Cyrax86 wrote...

sigh , one sided argument.

So there were no attractive male characters in DA games? no overly muscular men?

(Media in general) Kratos (from GoW) fought in a loin cloth. Raiden (MGS2) ran around naked, Dante (new DMC) was nude for the intro. Did anyone care, nope

A lot of male PC's or protagonist in other games end up having super human abilities, even when their supposed to be a joe average protagonist. Do male gamers care that they'll never measure up to their abilities?

Do I have to link that video on the difference between objectification and idealisation again?

I'm going to link it again.

Modifié par bleetman, 20 juin 2013 - 03:30 .

[ejoslin]

bleetman wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

bleetman that might have been true 10 to 20 years ago but women are almost 50% of the gaming community so gaming companies cater to them as well now

Yeah, the way in which the industry repeated tries to hide its female characters in marketing, goes out of its way to ignore their opinion and tells developers "Well, we don't want to publish it because that's not going to succeed. You can't have a female character in games. It has to be a male character, simple as that" is clearly one that caters to its female audience.

At best, some gaming companies have just got around to acknowledging they even exist.

They're beiginning to acknowledge us because, well, our money spends just as well.  And we enjoy RPGs and action games and such -- just try to figure out what we actually like.  See, the gaming industry has had the problem that they don't know what female gamers actually want.  For instance, the Mario series drew in girl gamers in spades, but the "girly games" that were released  for the NES did not.  The problem is there are not enough women helping develop games, but this is changing because there's a lot of money to be made.

This is something that Bioware does right; their stories are written for both males and females -- and playing both genders is believable.  I loved having my badass female warden who DID have to put up with a little crap for being female without it becoming oppressive.

I'm expecting someone to chime in and say females only play Zenga games and Sims (though the Sims has a huge male audience which isn't acknowledged), but when developers make games that appeal to females (like Skyrim, Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Fallout 3 and NV) and we can play as females, it's great and the games sell very well.

I think I'm rambling.

Modifié par ejoslin, 20 juin 2013 - 03:40 .

[ejoslin]

Filament wrote...

I think we'd have to establish what is a comparable sexually objectifying example of men, considering Kratos is not such an example. Is it the bishonen characters in anime/JRPGs? Or do they appeal more to male ideals in Japan just the same..?

(Is it complex and not so perfectly segregated between ideal and objectified? Probably.)

I think both genders idealize both male and female bodies and we tend to want to play the one we want to look like and boff the one we find attractive.

A man objectifed, BTW?  Alistair Theirin.  Sexy, strong, shy, sweet, innocent, handsome, vulnerable -- all those chords, both in physical appearance and in the romance side as well.


ETA: I've always assumed things like fireman calenders, much like most porn featuring males, are actually aimed at men.  Chippendale dancers, however, yeh, definitely for women.

Modifié par ejoslin, 20 juin 2013 - 03:41 .

[bleetman]

ejoslin wrote...

A man objectifed, BTW?  Alistair Theirin.  Sexy, strong, shy, sweet, innocent, handsome, vulnerable -- all those chords, both in physical appearance and in the romance side as well.

That's... not what objectification is.

Alistair isn't in any way reduced to an object. A thing we're supposed to want to own and nothing else. His character is a character, and a pretty detailed and important-to-the-story one at that. He hasn't been dehumanised, he doesn't lack individual agency, and he's not simply here for our sexual gratification.

Modifié par bleetman, 20 juin 2013 - 03:42 .

[ejoslin]

bleetman wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

A man objectifed, BTW?  Alistair Theirin.  Sexy, strong, shy, sweet, innocent, handsome, vulnerable -- all those chords, both in physical appearance and in the romance side as well.

That's... not what objectification is.

Alistair isn't in any way reduced to an object. A thing. His character is a character, and a pretty detailed and important-to-the-story one at that. He hasn't been dehumanised. He doesn't lack individual agency, and he's not simply here for our sexual gratification.

Well, then I guess we have to get into definitions here because I could make that argument about many female video game characters as well.  

I picked Alistair as he is not only visually appealing but is emotionally appealing as well -- and this is important as women as a general rule are not quite as visual.

If Alistair weren't so handsome, would he be as appealing?  But if he weren't so sweet, would he be either?

ETA: And I guess a question is, if a woman is portrayed as sexy and sexual, is she necessarily dehumanized?  I suppose if she has no real depth as a character except as what some shallow men think would be an ideal female (a snuggle-bunny I guess).

I do agree that women are often portrayed badly in the media, but men are as well.

Modifié par ejoslin, 20 juin 2013 - 03:49 .

[Mr.House]

ejoslin wrote...

bleetman wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

A man objectifed, BTW?  Alistair Theirin.  Sexy, strong, shy, sweet, innocent, handsome, vulnerable -- all those chords, both in physical appearance and in the romance side as well.

That's... not what objectification is.

Alistair isn't in any way reduced to an object. A thing. His character is a character, and a pretty detailed and important-to-the-story one at that. He hasn't been dehumanised. He doesn't lack individual agency, and he's not simply here for our sexual gratification.

Well, then I guess we have to get into definitions here because I could make that argument about many female video game characters as well.  

I picked Alistair as he is not only visually appealing but is emotionally appealing as well -- and this is important as women as a general rule are not quite as visual.

If Alistair weren't so handsome, would he be as appealing?  But if he weren't so sweet, would he be either?

That's still not objectifiaction.

[ejoslin]

Mr.House wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

bleetman wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

A man objectifed, BTW?  Alistair Theirin.  Sexy, strong, shy, sweet, innocent, handsome, vulnerable -- all those chords, both in physical appearance and in the romance side as well.

That's... not what objectification is.

Alistair isn't in any way reduced to an object. A thing. His character is a character, and a pretty detailed and important-to-the-story one at that. He hasn't been dehumanised. He doesn't lack individual agency, and he's not simply here for our sexual gratification.

Well, then I guess we have to get into definitions here because I could make that argument about many female video game characters as well.  

I picked Alistair as he is not only visually appealing but is emotionally appealing as well -- and this is important as women as a general rule are not quite as visual.

If Alistair weren't so handsome, would he be as appealing?  But if he weren't so sweet, would he be either?

That's still not objectifiaction.

So creating what many women think of as the ideal man, since that goes beyond looks, is not objectification?

ETA: I will admit Alistair has depth, but to appeal to women, I think that's needed.

Second edit:  Video games are about fantasy, and women are definitely objectified.  My only point was that men could be as well, but what women in general find appealing can be quite different than what men find appealing.

I don't think the character Alistair is bad at all -- I love the way he was written, and I love his character model, so I wouldn't want him changed at all.  That he was written to be appealing is a good, not bad, thing.

However, when I look at pictures of what women play, I rarely see them making their character ugly.  I see the occasional scar and tattoo, but usually the face is beautiful, with modded hair, often modded presets -- so women also seem to enjoy playing the part of an attractive woman.  This is not a bad thing.

I think the gaming industry runs into problems when they ignore the female audience and only have the stuff in their games that young men would find appealing.  When they add things that women also find appealing (which is most often a bit different), they get women players as well.

Modifié par ejoslin, 20 juin 2013 - 04:05 .

[bleetman]

Objectification and sexualisation aren't really the same thing.

Now, would I argue that Alistair has been made in a way that makes him sexually attractive? Maybe. I mean, I don't personally feel that way about him myself, but I can appreciate the qualities in him that make him so. But I have a hard time accepting that he was specifically designed - physically and personality wise - with sexual attraction in mind.

Whether I'd say the female characters in Dragon Age were... well. I've had my reservations about Morrigan's default outfit, and Isabela was plainly designed to be sexually attractive, but in her case it's so closely intertwined with a character that has genuine sexual agency that it doesn't become an issue for me. I could talk all day about the sexualisation of Mass Effect's female characters, but that's probably just a waste of everyones time.

[ejoslin]

I haven't played Mass Effect, so I can't comment on them.

I think how you're defining women being objectified is their only purpose is for edification of the male character. But they're still video game characters and therefore not real, and most guys really do like looking at hot women and being told by hot women how terrific they are.

Using Alistair for an example, I was trying to show that what appeals to women probably is different than what appeals to men in general. So having hot guys in nothing but thongs with huge junk won't do much for most women as physical attractiveness is not all that makes a man desirable, but toss in some humor, some bravery, some sweetness, etc., and you have something that appeals to women.

I don't know, though. I do think having more women involved in video game design will help add in things that appeal to women. Ultimately, that's why the sexy women are in there -- to appeal to guys.

ETA: I guess the thing is, as a woman, I want to play a woman who is sexy, and I want the men, especially the ones that flirt, to be handsome. Bann Teagan and Cullen are both examples of this.  They just have small flirty lines in DAO, and are both handsome, and Teagan is rich and Cullen is in uniform -- and they have big fan bases because of the small flirts.

Modifié par ejoslin, 20 juin 2013 - 04:27 .

[LinksOcarina]

bleetman wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

A man objectifed, BTW?  Alistair Theirin.  Sexy, strong, shy, sweet, innocent, handsome, vulnerable -- all those chords, both in physical appearance and in the romance side as well.

That's... not what objectification is.

Alistair isn't in any way reduced to an object. A thing we're supposed to want to own and nothing else. His character is a character, and a pretty detailed and important-to-the-story one at that. He hasn't been dehumanised, he doesn't lack individual agency, and he's not simply here for our sexual gratification.

Let's avoid that subject/object dichotomy, it really doesn't fit.

After all, this makes Lara Croft sexist as well.