356 réponses à ce sujet

[Spaghetti_Ninja]

Destiny_1989 wrote...
- most women overlook men's physical aspect in favor of personality

This is a joke, right?

[Spaghetti_Ninja]

LinksOcarina wrote...

I asked a friend of mine this, she told me Commander Shepard and how she was portrayed made her an ideal power fantasy, where she was capable without gender being involved.

I would have to agree with her.

Basically, female Shepard was just a man with a female body, female voice and some custom lines/romances thrown in. Male Shepard was always the starting point. Even his/her sense of humour was obviously male.

[Grog Muffins]

ejoslin wrote...

bleetman wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

A man objectifed, BTW?  Alistair Theirin.  Sexy, strong, shy, sweet, innocent, handsome, vulnerable -- all those chords, both in physical appearance and in the romance side as well.

That's... not what objectification is.

Alistair isn't in any way reduced to an object. A thing. His character is a character, and a pretty detailed and important-to-the-story one at that. He hasn't been dehumanised. He doesn't lack individual agency, and he's not simply here for our sexual gratification.

Well, then I guess we have to get into definitions here because I could make that argument about many female video game characters as well.  

I picked Alistair as he is not only visually appealing but is emotionally appealing as well -- and this is important as women as a general rule are not quite as visual.

If Alistair weren't so handsome, would he be as appealing?  But if he weren't so sweet, would he be either?

ob·jec·ti·fy  (b-jkt-f)tr.v. 1. To present or regard as an object

By that definition, Alistair is not objectified because his character does not come down to only one thing. He
is well rounded, he grows as the story unfolds, he creates an emotional response in us (He is so sweet / He's my best friend / Yeesh, this guy whines so much).

Had he not been conventionally handsome but still retained his personality, yes, he still would have been appealing. Had he not been sweet, but still had a well thought out personality, he stil would have been appealing (Loghain isn't sweet but he is appealing in a certain way). He would not have been appealing beyond a purely sexual desire if he was handsome but offered nothing in terms of personality and character development.

ejoslin wrote...

ETA: And I guess a question is, if a woman is portrayed as sexy and sexual, is she necessarily dehumanized?  I suppose if she has no real depth as a character except as what some shallow men think would be an ideal female (a snuggle-bunny I guess).

Isabela is the perfect example. She has a very sexual design but she is more than just T&A - that does not dehumanize her, it makes her a round character. She is not there just so people can get their jollies off by staring at her cleavage. She has depth and that depth is what keeps people from thinking that she is nothing more than an object in the game (at least people who bother to see past her physical aspect and discover her as a person).

Modifié par Destiny_1989, 20 juin 2013 - 04:52 .

[Wulfram]

If we're going to take Loghain as an example, then the obvious comparison is Meredith. Who while definitely not ugly isn't exactly over-prettified either.

[LinksOcarina]

Spaghetti_Ninja wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

I asked a friend of mine this, she told me Commander Shepard and how she was portrayed made her an ideal power fantasy, where she was capable without gender being involved.

I would have to agree with her.

Basically, female Shepard was just a man with a female body, female voice and some custom lines/romances thrown in. Male Shepard was always the starting point. Even his/her sense of humour was obviously male.

Bull**** right there.

For one, how does a sense of humor equate gender? 

[Azaron Nightblade]

bleetman wrote...

Yeah, the way in which the industry repeated tries to hide its female characters in marketing, goes out of its way to ignore their opinion and tells developers "Well, we don't want to publish it because that's not going to succeed. You can't have a female character in games. It has to be a male character, simple as that" is clearly one that caters to its female audience.

At best, some gaming companies have just got around to acknowledging they even exist.

I actually found those website links far more horrifying than the Jimquisition rant, probably because I've seen that DoA footage on every article against "boobs" in videogames - honestly, if they want to give a lowblow to the videogame industry by repeatedly showing the most outrageous thing they can find and paint the whole thing in the same light they might as well go dig up some obscure Japanese game that has tentacles or something. 

[ejoslin]

Filament wrote...

Destiny_1989 wrote...

ob·jec·ti·fy  (b-jkt-f)tr.v. 1. To present or regard as an object

By that definition, Alistair is not objectified because his character does not come down to only one thing. He
is well rounded, he grows as the story unfolds, he creates an emotional response in us (He is so sweet / He's my best friend / Yeesh, this guy whines so much).

I don't see the word "exclusively" in that definition. I don't think it incompatible that a character can be an object of desire, objectified in a certain sense, and a well rounded character at the same time.

YES!  Thank you!  

What I've been trying to say is that what appeals to men (at least in the eyes of the developers) is not what will appeal to women.  Eye candy may be enough for guys, with some fawning, but for many women, that won't have the same effect and you have to appeal to the feels a bit, so the dialog has to be a bit different.

If a game developer decided that to draw women in by just having buff guys flirt with them, that probably would not work unless the flirting was very well done and didn't give the "creeper" or "obnoxious" vibe, but probably a bit more would be needed.  Cullen's and Teagan's flirty lines were put in there only for women, and were apparently effective as those two have fairly large fan followings.

This whole thing is not terrible -- they're just trying to draw in fans by appealing to them on various levels.  My issue comes in when the bodies are completely impossible, but I suppose that also is part of the fantasy.

Modifié par ejoslin, 20 juin 2013 - 05:17 .

[Grog Muffins]

Filament wrote...

Destiny_1989 wrote...

ob·jec·ti·fy  (b-jkt-f)tr.v. 1. To present or regard as an object

By that definition, Alistair is not objectified because his character does not come down to only one thing. He
is well rounded, he grows as the story unfolds, he creates an emotional response in us (He is so sweet / He's my best friend / Yeesh, this guy whines so much).

I don't see the word "exclusively" in that definition. I don't think it incompatible that a character can be an object of desire, objectified in a certain sense, and a well rounded character at the same time.

I'm of the opposite mindset. If a character is presented by its creator as more than just a piece of meat, well rounded, I don't think they're being objectified. If the audience sees them as more than just a piece of meat, I don't think they're being objectified. For example, I don't think Isabela is objectified from Bioware's point of view, because they created her to have depth. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the matter.

ejoslin wrote...

YES!  Thank you!  

What
I've been trying to say is that what appeals to men (at least in the eyes of the developers) is not what will appeal to women.  Eye candy may be enough for guys, with some fawning, but for many women, that won't have the same effect and you have to appeal to the feels a bit, so the dialog has to be a bit different.

If a game developer decided that to draw women in by just having buff guys flirt with them, that probably would not work unless the flirting was very well done and didn't give the "creeper" or "obnoxious" vibe, but probably a bit more would be needed.  Cullen's and Teagan's flirty lines were put in there only for women, and were apparently effective as those two have fairly large fan followings.

This whole thing is not terrible -- they're just trying to draw in fans by appealing to them on various levels.  My
issue comes in when the bodies are completely impossible, but I suppose that also is part of the fantasy.

This, I think, is a much broader discussion than just objectification. Yes, objectification is a part of it, but it mostly boils down to personal/gender preferences, right? I've already said my thoughts on this matter in this thread, so I won't repeat myself in this post, too.

Post 1 Post 2

Modifié par Destiny_1989, 20 juin 2013 - 05:33 .

[jmadsen]

"Basically, female Shepard was just a man with a female body, female voice and some custom lines/romances thrown in. Male Shepard was always the starting point. Even his/her sense of humour was obviously male."

Okay, I’m
curious, what do you think female humor is then? Could you provide some examples?


Like, male humor is this:

And female
humor is this:

[jmadsen]

*double post

Modifié par jmadsen, 20 juin 2013 - 06:04 .

[ejoslin]

One thing I do have to wonder about -- whether the eye candy that is in video games for guys is really that effective, or if males would prefer something more in-depth as well and that devs are really being kind of lazy. After all, if a guy wants to watch porn or bouncing boobs or whatever, there are better places for that.

The thing is, men in games cannot be objectified in the same way by women as women are by men because that is not what most women want. So you're not going to be able to come up with a male equivalent that is equal in all ways to female ones, because males presented in that way would come off, at best, as humorous, and worst, as creepy.

It's not that women don't like attractive men -- they do. It's just that it's not enough. If Cullen had been ugly, he would have been classed as "creepy" by more (he came off as completely creepy to me but obviously not to all women). However, Cammen, as sweet and innocent as he is, is a complete joke because, well, he's ugly. If he were hot, seducing him would not be the same kind of comic relief that it is.

Anyway, yes, it really does come down to personal preference.

[ZumecTheArcher]

 i hope whatever appearance you have matches the voice actor, because some characters i saw in da2 and the voice didnt match up at all.

[jmadsen]

[/quote]

"Bull**** right there.

For one, how does a sense of humor equate gender?" 

[/quote]It doesn’t,
Spaghetti_Ninja is talking out his/her ass.

Modifié par jmadsen, 20 juin 2013 - 06:12 .

[Boycott Bioware]

Look at SWTOR, all races share the same body, only the heads are different, but that is not the issue, the male body having humungous chest size, V shaped body and female body are barbie dolls-like.

I have see DA:I concept art, following the same like SWTOR body model, i don't like it, it look like teen Marvel comic superheroes

[Kerethos]

I'm rather happy so long as Bioware keeps moving away from designs like this:

[Plaintiff]

All the female characters should have paper bags on their heads and all the men should be totally buff, and strutting around the gameworld in leopard-print thongs, stopping occasionally to bend over and flex their glutes.

[AresKeith]

Kerethos_ wrote...

I'm rather happy so long as Bioware keeps moving away from designs like this:

Hopefully we'll see designs like this

[Grog Muffins]

ejoslin wrote...

One thing I do have to wonder about -- whether the eye candy that is in video games for guys is really that effective, or if males would prefer something more in-depth as well and that devs are really being kind of lazy. After all, if a guy wants to watch porn or bouncing boobs or whatever, there are better places for that.

I have no doubt a lot of men want women who are strong characters with a lot of depth to them. I have male friends who prefer female characters to be like this and I've seen a lot of the male BSN population subscribes to this mindset, as well. It's not impossible. The other camp, however, prefer esthetic appeal firstly. It indeed boils down to personal preference.

There are, of course, characters who are both physically attractive and have great character development for both genders, like Isabela, Leliana, Alistair, Nathaniel, Fenris bla bla, Bioware writes good characters.

This is the ideal I want entertainment in general to strive towards. If you want a characters to be good looking, don't make that their defining feature, make it a bonus, they have an awesome personality and compelling character development and, in addition, look good.

[Azaron Nightblade]

Qistina wrote...

Look at SWTOR, all races share the same body, only the heads are different, but that is not the issue, the male body having humungous chest size, V shaped body and female body are barbie dolls-like.

I have see DA:I concept art, following the same like SWTOR body model, i don't like it, it look like teen Marvel comic superheroes

SWTOR actually has 4 body types to choose from though.
For males it goes;
1) Skinny and shorter
2) Athletic
3) Beefcake (think Hercules)
4) Chubby!

For females it goes;

1) Skinny and shorter
2) Athletic
3) Female bodybuilder
4) Curvy

[Azaron Nightblade]

Destiny_1989 wrote...

There are, of course, characters who are both physically attractive and have great character development for both genders, like Isabela, Leliana, Alistair, Nathaniel, Fenris bla bla, Bioware writes good characters.

This is the ideal I want entertainment in general to strive towards. If you want a characters to be good looking, don't make that their defining feature, make it a bonus, they have an awesome personality and compelling character development and, in addition, look good.

And you've pretty much nailed the reason why I love Bioware's characters! 

[Phaedros]

Azaron Nightblade wrote...

Chris Priestly wrote...

Just curious. How much do you think Angelina Jolie looks like her father Jon Voight?

Yep! I'll add Mr Bean's (Rowan Atkinson) daughter to that list of kids who look nothing like their father!

Rhianna Pratchett to the two of you too ...  

<3:whistle: