136 réponses à ce sujet

[GreyLycanTrope]

Baelrahn wrote...
I think that could even work really well - I for one wasn't at all annoyed about Shepard showing some cracks in the foundation here and there.

The problem is rather that people want an oldschool non-character protagonist like The Warden on the one hand, but also cinematic storytelling, dynamic dialogue and everyone interacting consistently with the subplots on the other. It just doesn't work.

I think it's more an issue of people wanting to have more say about what does or doesn't affect their character in that sort of setting, which can be hit and miss depending on the set piece provided by the developer. From my own experiance at least, the issue with Shepard wasn't that she showed cracks in the foundation it was that she was made to show them during events that didn't quite seem to resenate with the character I became familiar with over the course of 2 previous games. If you romance Jacob in ME2 Shep actually has to option to vent a few insecuraties to Jacob. You have the option of either telling him that you're fine, you have survivors guilt, and you feel lost about being out of commision for two year. Compare that to quite a few moments in ME3 where you have the option to be upset or very upset about events like Thessia.

Shepard being a character imported straight from the other two games also contributed to this, as over the course of two game people gave each of their Shepard different personalites, at least as much as the game allowed, hence when you get to a certain emotionally driven set peice like say Mordin dying, it feels more organic for the player because to the his and Shepard's pervious interactions(if you played that wya), while loosing Thessia mihgt not resenate with everyone since not everybody bonded with Liara's character or liked the Asari in general.

It's a bit easier to pull of these set peices when you start each game with a new character your audiance has no previous experiance with, which is the emotional scenes with Hawke's family in DA2 work a bit better, imo.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Baelrahn wrote...

The problem is rather that people want an oldschool non-character protagonist like The Warden on the one hand, but also cinematic storytelling, dynamic dialogue and everyone interacting consistently with the subplots on the other.

I want the former.  I don't care about the latter at all.

[MerinTB]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Baelrahn wrote...
The problem is rather that people want an oldschool non-character protagonist like The Warden on the one hand, but also cinematic storytelling, dynamic dialogue and everyone interacting consistently with the subplots on the other.

I want the former.  I don't care about the latter at all.

Not everyone wanting one wants the other.

I'll take the former over the latter, thanks.

I can enjoy the latter, but fully acknowledge it works better without the former.  And better in adventure games, not RPGs.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Filament wrote...
And how can you say "it just doesn't work" despite all the games with unvoiced protagonist and voiced, cinematic cutscenes that worked just fine, like DAO and NWN2.

Well, those are the only two I can think of. But they did work! I think people want to draw everything to an extreme and not accept anything in between like that somehow diminishes it.

It's not that it "doesn't work."  It's that it doesn't work as WELL as a voiced protagonist.  Compared to the flow of cutscenes in ME and DA2, DA:O's got some really jarring, awkward cutscenes where the Warden just stands there like a silent, emotionless mannequin while everyone else (who isn't the main character) talks and emotes.

Maybe that doesn't matter as much to you.  That's fine, that's just personal preference.  But it does matter to other gamers.

[Sylvius the Mad]

MerinTB wrote...

I can enjoy the latter, but fully acknowledge it works better without the former.  And better in adventure games, not RPGs.

I would argue that emphasizing the latter over the former makes it an adventure game, not an RPG.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Filament wrote...
The main weakness you pointed out for silent protagonist sounds more like a problem with how the cinematics were directed, though, as the scenes you've recalled for me are all the times when the camera is pointing directly at the Warden's blank face waiting for your response. They shouldn't have done that.

If we're strictly talking cinematics, I personally don't see the silent protagonist as offering any significant strengths.  Trying to get around one set of weaknessses (the weird silent moments) only creates another set of incongruities.  For example, the scene before storming Denerim where Alistair/Anora gives a big fancy rallying speech to the troops.  That involves relatively little awkward Warden standing around, but then it leaves the question of why the main character was pretty much shunted to the side during a big story moment.  

As for NWN and Jade Empire, the cinematics for these games were relatively short compared to DA:O and later BioWare games.  There were also limited facial expressions and animations in both games, so the PC's relative lack of expression didn't seem nearly as jarring as it did in later installments.

I suppose you could implement a "dominant personality" system with a silent protagonist, and use that to inform the protagonist's emotes during cinematic cutscenes.  But that runs into the whole set of "dominant personality" problems that we had in DA2.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 21 juin 2013 - 10:58 .

[Swoopdogg]

 I think it should be done both ways. Like you're preparing for some epic battle and you're ripping your hair out because you have the lives of everyone in thedas to worry about, and your LI is all supportive and stuff. But then your LI also has problems of his/her own and you have to talk them through it. You know, like an actual relationship.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Swoopdogg wrote...

 I think it should be done both ways. Like you're preparing for some epic battle and you're ripping your hair out because you have the lives of everyone in thedas to worry about, and your LI is all supportive and stuff. But then your LI also has problems of his/her own and you have to talk them through it. You know, like an actual relationship.

Reciprocity in video game relationships?  NEVAR 

I did like Garrus's relationship in ME3, since it felt like he and Shepard supported each other rather than one carrying the other.  I'm a little hard pressed to think of a DA romance that's comparable.

[Hazegurl]

I don't want anyone to fix anyone, although it would be nice to have a moment of weakness in front of the LI in private when things are looking bleak. I'm so sick of all these broken men in Bioware games. No more 'damaged goods' for LIs.