208 réponses à ce sujet

[Elrena]

hawketheman wrote...

Elrena wrote...
Having diverse LI's doesn't make Thedas seem utopian at all. It just reflects reality - gay people didn't only start appearing in the twentieth century. We've been around since the dawn of humanity. 
I'm not even going to comment on the 'men with boobs' thing. I think you know exactly how stupid that statement was.

Sorry. I realise I did not state my argument very clearly. I did not mean to say that I did not want bisexual characters in the game. It is just that in DAO I got the impression that Thedas was a quite homophobic world, which seems realistic. This is reflected in the romance dialog and made the gay romances more interesting. Kirkwall is perhaps more openminded, as sexuality doesn't seem to be much of an issue at all. I don't feel very strongly about this issue, tough. The developers can do what they like.

Please comment on "the men with boobs thing". I could easily rephrase it into "men are women without boobs".

While I don't agree that men and women are essentially mentally different due to differences in biology, I believe we are different due to the pressures of the societies we grow up in. Women are told that they are expected to behave in one way, men another, and Gaider does a very good job of exploring this in the talk when he discusses priviledge. 
Could you elaborate more on parts of the games that made you feel that Thedas was homophobic? It's been said in the past that most residents of Thedas don't really care about same-sex relationships. They aren't especially common, perhaps, but not looked down upon.

Regardless of one's opinion on all LI's being open to both genders, I don't see how you can think that's either diverse or a reflection of reality. 

Mr. Gaider addressed this in the talk. Except for the invitations of Anders' and Isabela (who is canononically bisexual as of DA:O and thus it was no suprise) you had to seek out same sex content. Only by deliberately seeking out that content, or metagaming, could you see it or be exposed to it, and if you didn't then you would have no idea that the characters would be willing to consider a same sex relationship. I have friends who still have no idea they could have romanced Fenris as a man. 
I believe Mr. Gaider has said in the past that all playthroughs should be considered AU's. In that respect, if you romance Merrill as a woman, it's in an AU timeline where she'd be receptive to the idea. Going on the theory of the multiverse, there's an AU where I am a gay male astronaut, rather than a asexual female writer. I really don't understand why this is such a problem for so many people to wrap their heads around. 

[d-boy15]

"24% of players"

Well... I'm not against bisexual or gay romance but did Gaider know many player who choose
that aren't even gay? The fact is most of them just male who want a hot fantasy lesbian scene.

[Thomas Andresen]

hawketheman wrote...

It is just that in DAO I got the impression that Thedas was a quite homophobic world, ...

How in the world did you come to that conclusion? Ugh, you know what? No, just ...no.

Kirkwall is perhaps more openminded, as sexuality doesn't seem to be much of an issue at all.

Apart from Isabella, the "romancable" characters were all people who had never, for various reasons, thought much about the topic of sexuality. Gaider explains this in his talk.

Please comment on "the men with boobs thing". I could easily rephrase it into "men are women without boobs".

It would still be wrong. It's too much of an over-simplification.

[ElitePinecone]

Huyna wrote...

"Our number one  priority is to ship the game." - 36:56

Sums it up.

Yeah, I think it's easy to get carried away and either praise or demonise the developers for the romance content, when it's a fairly low-priority feature that's ultimately influenced by much broader factors like resources, time, a target audience and the cold realities of actually making and shipping a game. 

I liked David's anecdote that romances were only really emphasised in the first place because they noticed an avid audience for them, it's not like Bioware are putting them there out of charity - it's a niche the company has cornered in terms of game content, which seems like a hard-headed business decision rather than something necessarily political. 

(Though, as he said, what they decide to include and not include is ultimately making a political statement, anyway)

[Thomas Andresen]

d-boy15 wrote...

"24% of players"

Well... I'm not against bisexual or gay romance but did Gaider know many player who choose
that aren't even gay? The fact is most of them just male who want a hot fantasy lesbian scene.

He knows. He even said it.

Well, he said it's a possibility.

[Andraste_Reborn]

A medieval setting should have sexism, racism, biggotry and predjudice that the PC can rebel against.

Thedas is very different from Medieval Europe from a social perspective, in all sorts of ways. Not that Medieval Europe was monolithic - we're talking about hundreds of societies over hundreds of years - but really, the cultures we've seen in Thedas don't have a lot in common with those in Earth's past when it comes to matters of sexuality and gender.

I, for one, am happy that Thedas has a lot less sexism than Medieval Europe. The level of BS I have to deal with in real life is enough for me without having to put up with it while I'm slaying imaginary dragons.

[Elrena]

d-boy15 wrote...

"24% of players"

Well... I'm not against bisexual or gay romance but did Gaider know many player who choose
that aren't even gay? The fact is most of them just male who want a hot fantasy lesbian scene.

No, that's not a fact. A fact requires data to back it up. 

It's likely that happened with some playthroughs. It's also likely that a number of women made male characters for reasons that included an intent to romance Zevran. 

Whatever the reason, 24% of players who opted into the telemetry took part in same sex romances. That's not including the large, large number who opted out. 

[Elrena]

Andrastee wrote...

A medieval setting should have sexism, racism, biggotry and predjudice that the PC can rebel against.

Thedas is very different from Medieval Europe from a social perspective, in all sorts of ways. Not that Medieval Europe was monolithic - we're talking about hundreds of societies over hundreds of years - but really, the cultures we've seen in Thedas don't have a lot in common with those in Earth's past when it comes to matters of sexuality and gender.

I, for one, am happy that Thedas has a lot less sexism than Medieval Europe. The level of BS I have to deal with in real life is enough for me without having to put up with it while I'm slaying imaginary dragons.

Exactly. 

[syllogi]

Why is everyone assuming that the 24% number refers to a hot lesbian romance?

Maybe twenty four percent of male characters wanted a massage from Zevran. That's not hard to imagine.

[hawketheman]

Elrena wrote...
While I don't agree that men and women are essentially mentally different due to differences in biology, I believe we are different due to the pressures of the societies we grow up in. Women are told that they are expected to behave in one way, men another, and Gaider does a very good job of exploring this in the talk when he discusses priviledge. 
Could you elaborate more on parts of the games that made you feel that Thedas was homophobic? It's been said in the past that most residents of Thedas don't really care about same-sex relationships. They aren't especially common, perhaps, but not looked down upon.

According to many sosiologists I live in the most feminine and androgynous part of the world, so maybe gender differences are bigger where you live. Of course we are still far away from gender equality, but I have never experienced the feminine and masculine personality to be fundamentally different. I don't even believe those two terms make much sense. People describe men as aggressive and women as ****y. To me aggressiveness and ****iness is the exact same trait.

The way Zevran and Leliana talks to you about their bisexuality strongly implies that homosexuality isn't considered normal in Thedas. I like to play the underdog and the rebel (both in games and sometimes in real life when I feel brave enough), and I get annoyed when I think I've done something shocking that people don't react to.

Andrastee wrote...

A medieval setting should have sexism, racism, biggotry and predjudice that the PC can rebel against.

Thedas is very different from Medieval Europe from a social perspective, in all sorts of ways. Not that Medieval Europe was monolithic - we're talking about hundreds of societies over hundreds of years - but really, the cultures we've seen in Thedas don't have a lot in common with those in Earth's past when it comes to matters of sexuality and gender.

I, for one, am happy that Thedas has a lot less sexism than Medieval Europe. The level of BS I have to deal with in real life is enough for me without having to put up with it while I'm slaying imaginary dragons.

I see your point, but the reason I play video games is to that I can experience being a hero. A hero to me is someone who is able to deal with a lot of BS. The blight is probalby the biggest pile of BS you could imagine.

Modifié par hawketheman, 20 juin 2013 - 02:36 .

[Tarek]

wow amazing find

truly he pretty much nailed it on the head

im getting DA3 and Me4 even if its carp just to support bioware (although I'm 100% sure they are gonna be great games )

[Ieldra]

syllogi wrote...
Why is everyone assuming that the 24% number refers to a hot lesbian romance?

Maybe twenty four percent of male characters wanted a massage from Zevran. That's not hard to imagine.

I actually find it hard to imagine, though that may be just the effect of privilege.

It would be interesting to see stats on the questions:
(1) Are you (a) female or ( male?
(2) Do you (a) at least occasionally play same-sex romances with characters of your own gender, or ( do you not?

[Elrena]

hawketheman wrote...

Elrena wrote...
While I don't agree that men and women are essentially mentally different due to differences in biology, I believe we are different due to the pressures of the societies we grow up in. Women are told that they are expected to behave in one way, men another, and Gaider does a very good job of exploring this in the talk when he discusses priviledge. 
Could you elaborate more on parts of the games that made you feel that Thedas was homophobic? It's been said in the past that most residents of Thedas don't really care about same-sex relationships. They aren't especially common, perhaps, but not looked down upon.

According to many sosiologists I live in the most feminine and androgynous part of the world, so maybe gender differences are bigger where you live. Of course we are still far away from gender equality, but I have never experienced the feminine and masculine personality to be fundamentally different. I don't even believe those two terms make much sense. People describe men as aggressive and women as ****y. To me aggressiveness and ****iness is the exact same trait.

The way Zevran and Leliana talks to you about their bisexuality strongly implies that homosexuality isn't considered normal in Thedas. I like to play the underdog and the rebel (both in games and sometimes in real life when I feel brave enough), and I get annoyed when I think I've done something shocking that people don't react to.

It's entirely possible you live in a more accepting part of the world than I do. In which case, congrats! 
I live in Australia, and we're so far behind on these matters it's downright humiliating. 

[Gill Kaiser]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Is there a mirror anywhere that will work on a smartphone? Eg. Youtube?

I don't think it's up on YouTube, does this link work?

http://www.gamasutra...ty_in_games.php

It did work, thanks. It was an interesting talk. I'm looking forward to finding out what the DA:I example is retrospectively in a year's time.

[David7204]

I think I should go ahead and point out that the figures for the percentage of female players, including the figures that Merizan has given of around 45%, are almost certainly complete nonsense.

Modifié par David7204, 20 juin 2013 - 02:38 .

[Ieldra]

As for the video in general: I am absolutely delighted to see this level of reflection by someone in the gaming industry. As he said, their first priority is - and should be - to ship games, but being aware of these issues is still important, since you won't see opportunities to "not disinvite women or minorities" if you're not aware. If you do it well, it may even help you ship more games.

[Elrena]

Ieldra2 wrote...

syllogi wrote...
Why is everyone assuming that the 24% number refers to a hot lesbian romance?

Maybe twenty four percent of male characters wanted a massage from Zevran. That's not hard to imagine.

I actually find it hard to imagine, though that may be just the effect of privilege.

It would be interesting to see stats on the questions:
(1) Are you (a) female or ( male?
(2) Do you (a) at least occasionally play same-sex romances with characters of your own gender, or ( do you not?

I have a feeling the stats would surprise you. It would also be interesting to add:
(3) Do you (a) at least occasionally play same-sex romances with characters of the oposite gender, or ( do not. 
I think the number of women playing m/m romances might be something of a shock. 

[Elrena]

David7204 wrote...

I think I should go ahead and point out that the figures for the percentage of female players, including the figures that Merizan has given of around 45%, are almost certainly complete nonsense.

Of course, because surveys and telemetry are obviously not as accurate as your own preconceptions. The number is actually closer to 50%

A LOT of women play games. And before you trot out the 'casual' argument, I suggest you have a look at groups like The Frag Dolls. 

[LinksOcarina]

d-boy15 wrote...

"24% of players"

Well... I'm not against bisexual or gay romance but did Gaider know many player who choose
that aren't even gay? The fact is most of them just male who want a hot fantasy lesbian scene.

Does it really matter though? 

Even if half of that is for teenage masturbation material, the other half got what they wanted and felt represented. 

[David7204]

The number is in all likelihood far, far, far less. And I really do not care about whoever the 'Frag Dolls' are.

[hawketheman]

Elrena wrote...



It's entirely possible you live in a more accepting part of the world than I do. In which case, congrats! 
I live in Australia, and we're so far behind on these matters it's downright humiliating. 

I should have added that I think those sosiologist are full of ****. On one hand we have as the first country in history started to conscript female soldiers (because most civilised countries don't use conscription), but apart from that it's pretty much like everywere else. I live in Norway btw.

On the matter of sexiness and sexualisation I think the way to go is balance. So that for every Isabela there is a Varric and for every Leliana there is a Zevran and for every Miranda there is a ... who was supposed to be the sexy male character in ME!?

Modifié par hawketheman, 20 juin 2013 - 02:48 .

[Huyna]

hawketheman wrote...

who was supposed to be the sexy male character in ME!?

Biotic God, obviously.

[Ieldra]

Elrena wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

syllogi wrote...
Why is everyone assuming that the 24% number refers to a hot lesbian romance?

Maybe twenty four percent of male characters wanted a massage from Zevran. That's not hard to imagine.

I actually find it hard to imagine, though that may be just the effect of privilege.

It would be interesting to see stats on the questions:
(1) Are you (a) female or ( male?
(2) Do you (a) at least occasionally play same-sex romances with characters of your own gender, or ( do you not?

I have a feeling the stats would surprise you. It would also be interesting to add:
(3) Do you (a) at least occasionally play same-sex romances with characters of the oposite gender, or ( do not. 
I think the number of women playing m/m romances might be something of a shock. 

Or perhaps not. I have a hypothesis that straight people of both genders are more likely to feel uncomfortable with seeing intimacy between members of their own gender, while finding intimacies between members of the opposite gender much more acceptable. 

Maybe I'm just projecting though. Note that while I do admit feeling uncomfortable with m/m romances, I would never deny them to those who want them. If I can opt out, it's fine.

[Tarek]

Elrena wrote...

hawketheman wrote...

Elrena wrote...
While I don't agree that men and women are essentially mentally different due to differences in biology, I believe we are different due to the pressures of the societies we grow up in. Women are told that they are expected to behave in one way, men another, and Gaider does a very good job of exploring this in the talk when he discusses priviledge. 
Could you elaborate more on parts of the games that made you feel that Thedas was homophobic? It's been said in the past that most residents of Thedas don't really care about same-sex relationships. They aren't especially common, perhaps, but not looked down upon.

According to many sosiologists I live in the most feminine and androgynous part of the world, so maybe gender differences are bigger where you live. Of course we are still far away from gender equality, but I have never experienced the feminine and masculine personality to be fundamentally different. I don't even believe those two terms make much sense. People describe men as aggressive and women as ****y. To me aggressiveness and ****iness is the exact same trait.

The way Zevran and Leliana talks to you about their bisexuality strongly implies that homosexuality isn't considered normal in Thedas. I like to play the underdog and the rebel (both in games and sometimes in real life when I feel brave enough), and I get annoyed when I think I've done something shocking that people don't react to.

It's entirely possible you live in a more accepting part of the world than I do. In which case, congrats! 
I live in Australia, and we're so far behind on these matters it's downright humiliating. 

i advise against coming to live here then XD

its still 1780 here

[Elrena]

David7204 wrote...

The number is in all likelihood far, far, far less. And I really do not care about whoever the 'Frag Dolls' are.

http://www2.potsdam....controversy.pdf

If you continue to be so obstinate in the face of peer reviewed, academic studies, then you are sad and I have no desire to converse with you.