208 réponses à ce sujet

[Tarek]

David7204 wrote...

I think I should go ahead and point out that the figures for the percentage of female players, including the figures that Merizan has given of around 45%, are almost certainly complete nonsense.

of course oh privilaged one

do u need more slave girls to fan you while they feed u graps??? <_<

[Azaron Nightblade]

Taint Master wrote...

Does every game have to have social commentary now?  Can't Dragon Age just be fun?

ElitePinecone wrote...

Interesting telemetry relating to Dragon Age - 24% of players completed the same-sex romance with one specific character from either DAO or DA2, David didn't specify which character.

It was Leliana, obviously.

Exactly what I was thinking! 

[Nightdragon8]

Thomas Andresen wrote...

hawketheman wrote...

It is just that in DAO I got the impression that Thedas was a quite homophobic world, ...

How in the world did you come to that conclusion? Ugh, you know what? No, just ...no.

Kirkwall is perhaps more openminded, as sexuality doesn't seem to be much of an issue at all.

Apart from Isabella, the "romancable" characters were all people who had never, for various reasons, thought much about the topic of sexuality. Gaider explains this in his talk.

Please comment on "the men with boobs thing". I could easily rephrase it into "men are women without boobs".

It would still be wrong. It's too much of an over-simplification.

Yea Thedas is pretty tolerint of it, granted the "marrige" from what I understand is to pruduce childeren, but relationships are really no one others

I mean Banka story. She left her husband and left with her female lover. Ogran (however you spell it) gets the brunt of the jeers, as really one would explect. But they didn't make fun of her. (that and she's a paragon)

We have known sence DA:O that Isabella is bi, so it really wasn't ahock at all.

As for men are like women thing. Yes and no. Both have differences beyond the physical. And it more along the lines of... sociol and i think multitaking ablitties. And honestly its just a matter of one side is "slightly" better than the other in the avreges department.

The only time women can be completely different is a few to a week days out of a month... where the best thing a guy can do is shut up and simpithize as best he can, to prevent getting his head bitten off.

[David7204]

Oh boy. A seven page paper.

Let's talk about this, shall we? Let's talk about the fact that the author pulled this 40% figure directly from the Entertainment Software Association, and that fact that it's to their every benefit to have a high percentage of female players.

I'm not saying they lied. But I can guess with reasonable certainty how this survey was conducted and see a gaping flaw. They don't have much motivation to examine that flaw too closely when the results already support them. Exactly like you, actually.

Modifié par David7204, 20 juin 2013 - 03:01 .

[Steelcan]

Elrena wrote...

David7204 wrote...

The number is in all likelihood far, far, far less. And I really do not care about whoever the 'Frag Dolls' are.

http://www2.potsdam....controversy.pdf

If you continue to be so obstinate in the face of peer reviewed, academic studies, then you are sad and I have no desire to converse with you.

.  This is the appropriate response to anything David posts

[IanPolaris]

I just got down listening to the entire fifty minutes. For the most part, I found it to be an interesting and revealing persepective. I find it interesting how reasonable and even neutral sounding he can seem when he's (clearly IMHO) not sure his audience is going to agree.

All that said, there are a few points that bother me:

1. While I think that female and minority gaming is a lot higher than some posters (I feel right to point to David) assume, I am not at all confident in the way that Bioware/EA handles their data collection on their surveys. Sample Size is important, but only it it's the RIGHT sample (this is the difference between scientific and non-scientific surveys). For example that 24% for same-sex romance is almost surely Lelianna, and I am almost sure that a lot of straight male gamers did that romance possibly leading to an inflated figure. [I am not saying this is a bad thing, but I am suggesting that one should be careful about drawing too many conclusions from it.]

2. For someone that speaks of openness and inclusivity, and not pidgeonholing people into stereotypes, I noticed especially when DG talked about Anders, that he sure did that that a lot. It certainly seemed to me anyway that anyone that criticized Anders making a homosexual pass was a "priveldged straight male white gamer who was simply afraid of losing priveledge" and that such people that objected were homophobic.

FOUL! That may be true for some of the criticism, but my criticism of that has nothing to do with that. Had Anders been fully developerd as a bi-character in Dragon Age Awakening rather than one that was clearly and obviously heterosexual, I wouldn't have said boo. What I object to is the sudden change of character and character personality of which one aspect is sexuality.

3. Finally I note that DG days that the goal is not "Call of Duty: Rainbow edition" at the very end, yet his actions here and elsewhere of late seem to suggest just that (i.e. being afraid to exclude anyone). I am somewhat dissapointed between what I regard as a lack of coherence between what is said and done.

My basic thoughts for what they are worth.

-Polaris

[WildOrchid]

Elrena wrote...

Mr. Gaider addressed this in the talk. Except for the invitations of Anders' and Isabela (who is canononically bisexual as of DA:O and thus it was no suprise) you had to seek out same sex content. Only by deliberately seeking out that content, or metagaming, could you see it or be exposed to it, and if you didn't then you would have no idea that the characters would be willing to consider a same sex relationship. I have friends who still have no idea they could have romanced Fenris as a man. 
I believe Mr. Gaider has said in the past that all playthroughs should be considered AU's. In that respect, if you romance Merrill as a woman, it's in an AU timeline where she'd be receptive to the idea. Going on the theory of the multiverse, there's an AU where I am a gay male astronaut, rather than a asexual female writer. I really don't understand why this is such a problem for so many people to wrap their heads around.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[Thomas Andresen]

David7204 wrote...

Oh boy. A seven page paper.

Let's talk about this, shall we? Let's talk about the fact that the author pulled this 40% figure directly from the Entertainment Software Association, and that fact that it's to their every benefit to have a high percentage of female players.

I'm not saying they lied. But I can guess with reasonably certainty how this survey was conducted and see a gaping flaw. They don't have much motivation to examine that flaw too closely when the results already support them. Exactly like you, actually.

Alright. Let's say you're right. Let's say the percentage of female gamers is actually a lot lower than studies have shown. It's still blatantly obvious that there are females in the audience. Should game developers ignore them? Because they are too few?

It doesn't hurt us straight, white, male gamers if developers make their games more inclusive for females, gays, as well as various minorities. In fact, I would argue that we would benefit from games being more inclusive.

[IanPolaris]

Nightdragon8 wrote...

I mean Banka story. She left her husband and left with her female lover. Ogran (however you spell it) gets the brunt of the jeers, as really one would explect. But they didn't make fun of her. (that and she's a paragon)

About Branka, I think it's only fair to point out that:

1.  Her relationship with Hespith wasn't generally known.  In fact the first you hear of it is when you first encounter Hespith.  Oghren certainly didn't know but you don't hear any indication from others in Orzammar that knew both either.

2.  A Paragon is like a living prophet.  A Paragon can do whatever they like (or almost) and no one will say boo.

That said, I don't expect that homosexuality would be encouraged esp in the Noble Class simply because the Dwarves need to have as many children as possible (hence Noble-Hunters).

-Polaris

[Azaron Nightblade]

Huh, when he's talking about Neverwinter Nights he says there's only two romances - Aribeth and... whatshisfaceagain?
What happened to Sharwyn? O.o
Or did he mean that he personally wrote those two?

[IanPolaris]

Azaron Nightblade wrote...

Huh, when he's talking about Neverwinter Nights he says there's only two romances - Aribeth and... whatshisfaceagain?
What happened to Sharwyn? O.o
Or did he mean that he personally wrote those two?

You could flirt with Sharwyn as I remember, but nothing ever comes of it.  At least that's what I remember.

-Polaris

[syllogi]

David7204 wrote...

I think I should go ahead and point out that the figures for the percentage of female players, including the figures that Merizan has given of around 45%, are almost certainly complete nonsense.

Are you referring to the percent of female players who played DA:O & DA2, or female players of video games in general?  

We haven't seen any statistics regarding the percentage of female gamers playing these two games in particular, so I'm not sure why your personal opinion of the validity of the 47% number matters.  

Even if the number of Dragon Age players who are female are lower than that number, it's fair to say that they do make up at least fifteen to twenty percent of players.  That still would be a significant loss if every one of those players decided not to buy the next game.

And even if the numbers are less than that, what does that have to do with what David Gaider said in this talk?  

Modifié par syllogi, 20 juin 2013 - 03:10 .

[David7204]

Thomas Andresen wrote...

Alright. Let's say you're right. Let's say the percentage of female gamers is actually a lot lower than studies have shown. It's still blatantly obvious that there are females in the audience. Should game developers ignore them? Because they are too few?

It doesn't hurt us straight, white, male gamers if developers make their games more inclusive for females, gays, as well as various minorities. In fact, I would argue that we would benefit from games being more inclusive.

I'm not making any conclusions. I'm merely here to point out the 40%-45%-50% statistics are almost certainly wrong.

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

Thomas Andresen wrote...

Alright. Let's say you're right. Let's say the percentage of female gamers is actually a lot lower than studies have shown. It's still blatantly obvious that there are females in the audience. Should game developers ignore them? Because they are too few?

It doesn't hurt us straight, white, male gamers if developers make their games more inclusive for females, gays, as well as various minorities. In fact, I would argue that we would benefit from games being more inclusive.

I'm not making any conclusions. I'm merely here to point out the 40%-45%-50% statistics are almost certainly wrong.

based on?

[Elrena]

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Thomas Andresen wrote...

Alright. Let's say you're right. Let's say the percentage of female gamers is actually a lot lower than studies have shown. It's still blatantly obvious that there are females in the audience. Should game developers ignore them? Because they are too few?

It doesn't hurt us straight, white, male gamers if developers make their games more inclusive for females, gays, as well as various minorities. In fact, I would argue that we would benefit from games being more inclusive.

I'm not making any conclusions. I'm merely here to point out the 40%-45%-50% statistics are almost certainly wrong.

based on?

He doesn't want it too be true and ergo, it must not be. 
Why it would affect him in any way, shape, or form, I have no idea. But I do not plan to indulge him further.

[David7204]

Where did these numbers come from? Almost certainly from a simple survey. Are you female or male, and do you play video games or not? Get the results, crunch the numbers, boom. 47% of video game players are apparently female.

Except it's not that simple. Consider:

For males, playing video games is a neutral to unattractive trait. There's still heavy perceptions of male video game players being nerds and basement dwellers and immature teenagers. There's a high supply and a low demand - I've met very few young males that never ever under any circumstances play video games.

For females, it's the complete opposite. Playing video games is generally considered an attractive trait. It's considered something unique, something exceptional. You go to any video on Youtube with a pretty girl talking about video games, and half the comments will be gushing over how great she is.

Thus, males are going to underrepresent themselves and females are going to overrepresent themselves in such a survey. Females on the whole are going to be much more likely to want to take part in such a survey, while males on the whole are going to be much more likely to be disinterested.

Modifié par David7204, 20 juin 2013 - 03:20 .

[Steelcan]

I didn't ask why you think the survey is wrong. I asked what source, data, Ouija board conclusion do you have to support your statement.

[scootermcgaffin]

David7204 wrote...

Where did these numbers come from? Almost certainly from a simple survey. Are you female or male, and do you play video games or not? Get the results, crunch the numbers, boom. 47% of video game players are apparently female.

Except it's not that simple. Consider:

For males, playing video games is a neutral to unattractive trait. There's still heavy perceptions of male video game players being nerds and basement dwellers and immature teenagers. There's a high supply and a low demand - I've met very few young males that never ever under any circumstances play video games.

For females, it's the complete opposite. Playing video games is generally considered an attractive trait. It's considering something unique, something exceptional. You go to any video on Youtube with a pretty girl talking about video games, and half the comments will be gushing over how great she is.

Thus, males are going to underrepresent themselves and females are going to overrepresent themselves in such a survey.

This is literally the most ridiculous thing I've read today, and I've been on YouTube.

[Azaron Nightblade]

IanPolaris wrote...

Azaron Nightblade wrote...

Huh, when he's talking about Neverwinter Nights he says there's only two romances - Aribeth and... whatshisfaceagain?
What happened to Sharwyn? O.o
Or did he mean that he personally wrote those two?

You could flirt with Sharwyn as I remember, but nothing ever comes of it.  At least that's what I remember.

-Polaris

I looked up Sharwyn out of curiousity, and it seems you are pretty much right, it wasn't a full romance.
Though it seems it was going somewhere - and of course Bioware was kinda horrible with the whole romances thing, I recall how many people were unhappy with the OC's ending and how it completely left out any mention of Aribeth's fate, whether you romanced her or not.

[Elrena]

scootermcgaffin wrote...

This is literally the most ridiculous thing I've read today, and I've been on YouTube.

- Claps -

[David7204]

And why is it ridiculous?

[Thomas Andresen]

David7204 wrote...
You go to any video on Youtube with a pretty girl talking about video games, and half the comments will be gushing over how great she is.

You say that like it's a good thing.

[David7204]

Whether it's good or not is not my concern. Do you deny it's the truth?

[spirosz]

David7204 wrote...

Thus, males are going to underrepresent themselves and females are going to overrepresent themselves in such a survey. Females on the whole are going to be much more likely to want to take part in such a survey, while males on the whole are going to be much more likely to be disinterested. 

David, but at the same time, regardless of how a female or male gamer is portrayed or looked at, the question still stands as simply, how many female gamers are there and they truly a "minority" (which I don't believe they are at any means).  It's not trying to gain more information than that.  I understand what you're stating, but regardless of the number, I don't think it will make a drastic change in how certain and bigger developers decide to advertise and develop their games, regardless of how gamers have evolved, sadly. 

[Elrena]

David7204 wrote...

Whether it's good or not is not my concern. Do you deny it's the truth?

Perish the thought, but maybe there might be some genuine appreciation for their talent as a gamer? 

You are one of a dying breed, David. In ten years, you'll be a dinosaur. 

Please stop derailing this thread with your inability to accept fact, and just move on.