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[Seival]

Genre: RPG (with TPCS combat gameplay, and space travels between main combat/quest zones).

Your "Normandy": Nazara.

Protagonist: Saren.
Regular companion #1: Benezia. 
Regular companion #2: Shiala.
Regular companion #3: Geth Heretic platform (Juggernaut).
Secret companion #1: Commander Shepard (if convinced on Virmire).
Secret companion #2: Urdnot Wrex (if convinced on Virmire).

Goal: Help Nazara to succeed.
Ending: Epic dialogue with the Catalyst.
Outcome #1: Synthesis based on Saren's DNA.
Outcome #2: Refusal (Reapers continue harvests).

Idea based on the following thoughts:

Seival wrote...

Saren

Let's remember the final minutes of ME1. Geth occupiled the Council Chamber. Saren left all geth behind to finish the job himself. At the same time, Nazara phisically attached itself to the Citadel Tower.

Q: If Saren wanted only to hack the system to allow the Citadel to be used as Mass Relay again, why not send a geth to the console, and go back to try to delay Shepard?
A: Geth couldn't perform the task Saren wanted to perform, so it wasn't just a system hack. It was something more.

Q: Something more?
A: Saren was about to "talk" to the Catalyst, and required some time for that "conversation". But he was interupted by Shepard's squad, and so had to fight.

Q: How did Saren knew about the Catalyst?
A: It's possible that the Catalyst recognized Saren's potential, and introduced itself eventually.

Q: Saren's potential?
A: Yes, the same as Shepard's potential - an "organic anomaly".

Q: And what was the point of conversation between the Catalyst and Saren?
A: The same as in case of Shepard - try to find the new solution together.

Q: But there is no Crucible. How could they implement the solution?
A: Nazara connected itself to the Citadel Tower plysically. Saren and the Geth were already inside, so Nazara's goal wasn't system hacking. Reaper dreadnoughts clearly have overpowered energy sources to generate such strong shields and mass effect fields. Nazara could be repurposed before to be used as a Crucible analogy.

Q: Repurposed when and by who?
A: Before the attack on the Citadel, by Saren, Geth, and Nazara itself.

Q: But Saren was already indoctrinated. What's next?
A: Saren clearly wouldn't given Control option, because indoctrinated persons can't be used as a material to create the new Catalyst. Also Saren wouldn't given Destory option, because he didn't want to Destroy the Reapers. So, it's clear that Saren could have only two options available: sacrifice himself to trigger Synthesis, or refuse.

Interesting, isn't it?... Don't you find Saren's attack on the Citadel in ME1 similar to Shepard's attack on Earth in ME3? Both gathered allies to provide a distraction. Both used a "back door" to reach a "hidden consol". The difference is that Saren failed, when was interrupted by Shepard. But Shepard didn't fail, when was interrupted by TIM.



The Illusive Man

Les't remember the final minutes of ME3. TIM was on the Citadel and tried to mind-control wounded Shepard, but failed. Shepard managed to deal with TIM, and proceed.

Q: But what if TIM wouldn't fail? What will he do next?
A: Talk to the Catalyst obviously.

Q: But TIM was already indoctrinated. What's next?
A: TIM clearly wouldn't given Control option, because indoctrinated persons can't be used as a material to create the new Catalyst. Also TIM wouldn't given Destory option, because he didn't want to Destroy the Reapers. So, it's clear that TIM could have only two options available: sacrifice himself to trigger Synthesis, or refuse.

Both Saren and TIM aren't look like refusers. They would sacrifice themselves for the greater good without any doubts, no matter they are both pure renegades. So maybe we actually interrupted Synthesis attempt in ME1 without even knowing about that? And did exactly the same thing in ME3 in case if Shepard didn't choose Synthesis ending?



Maybe Synthesis is indeed the inevitable thing no matter how we delay it, by Refusing, by Destorying, or by Controlling? The history will always repeat itself till the final solution will be applied.

So, what do you think about that?

[Steelcan]

Inb4 David says its not heroic enough.

[Steelcan]

I doubt TIM would pick Synthesis. He'd keep trying to pick Control, despite the Reapers controlling him.

Who knows the Catalyst's bs might snap him out of it and he'd Destroy them.

[Seival]

Steelcan wrote...

I doubt TIM would pick Synthesis. He'd keep trying to pick Control, despite the Reapers controlling him.

Who knows the Catalyst's bs might snap him out of it and he'd Destroy them.

But after enough failed attempts to gain Control he will finally realize that he has only two options left: Synthesis and Refusal. And TIM doesn't look like Refuser.

[Steelcan]

Seival wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

I doubt TIM would pick Synthesis. He'd keep trying to pick Control, despite the Reapers controlling him.

Who knows the Catalyst's bs might snap him out of it and he'd Destroy them.

But after enough failed attempts to gain Control he will finally realize that he has only two options left: Synthesis and Refusal. And TIM doesn't look like Refuser.

.  I doubt that.  He is more concerned about power than solving the galaxy's "problems".  Destroy would eliminate a huge threat to humanity.

But like I said he would probably keep going for Control until the Reaprrs tured of him amd just killed him.

[mumba]

Seival wrote...
Secret companion #1: Commander Shepard (if convinced on Virmire).

Can't stop laughing.

[Seival]

Steelcan wrote...

Seival wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

I doubt TIM would pick Synthesis. He'd keep trying to pick Control, despite the Reapers controlling him.

Who knows the Catalyst's bs might snap him out of it and he'd Destroy them.

But after enough failed attempts to gain Control he will finally realize that he has only two options left: Synthesis and Refusal. And TIM doesn't look like Refuser.

.  I doubt that.  He is more concerned about power than solving the galaxy's "problems".  Destroy would eliminate a huge threat to humanity.

But like I said he would probably keep going for Control until the Reaprrs tured of him amd just killed him.

Maybe.

But what do you think about the game idea? Mass Effect: The Opposing Force.

[Steelcan]

Not a bad idea overall for an AU game.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Seival wrote...
But what do you think about the game idea? Mass Effect: The Opposing Force.

I'd rather play Half Life : Opposing Force 2.

[wolfhowwl]

So like the darkspawn chronicles...

[KENNY4753]

Honestly I applaud you Seival. You have really outdone yourself. Going so far out of your way to say "Synthesis is the only option" when clearly it isnt.

[shodiswe]

I want something new, something completely new or involving characters that we never got to know that well.

[Redbelle]

This idea relies on the rewriting of established history in favour of the antagonists.

Now that's what I call a dead parrot.

BioWare, will never return to the origin's of their trilogy, and retell the story from the POV of Saren and his fantastical lovely friends...... one of whom, is a giganitic space skyscraper squid, who shows his love, by threatening grievous bodily harm on every living being that fit's it's criteria for the Reaper's self imposed copycat crimes.

The plumage don't enter into it. It's stone dead.

I took the liberty of examining that parrot when I got it home, and I discovered the only reason that it had been sitting on its perch in the first place was that it had been NAILED there.

[AlexMBrennan]

wolfhowwl wrote...

So like the darkspawn chronicles...

Which sucked - the canonically incompetent Alistair somehow manages to recruit everyone but the Warden not surviving magically renders all defenders useless in the pivotal battle, but to before then (e.g. Dark spawn are effortlessly able to take the gates of Denerim, an event the warden wasn't even present for) and the party ends up arbitrarily losing the dark spawn horde in the end.

Genre: RPG (with TPCS combat gameplay, and space travels between main combat/quest zones).

Which is inappropriate - given that Saren has an army of geth and a super dreadnought t his disposal, he could resolve 95% of missions by air dropping a couple of primes or orbital bombardment. The excuses for Saren having to personally take a two-man squad to deal with everything will get very contrived very quickly (much more so than at present...)

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 22 juin 2013 - 07:05 .

[Redbelle]

Look...... Let's dissect a few issues that this idea will raise.

1. What are the advantages and disadvantages of having Saren as a Protag.

Ad's - He is an established character and established ally of Sovereign the action can kick straight off with minimal character introduction.

Dis - Saren will be hard to get people invested in as a playable protagonsit as his character has been established as hating humans and is pure renegade. To this end. His eastablshed charactisation makes him ineligible to use as a paragon/renegade dialogue choice crossroad as, as he has been portreyed in print and digital, he will always go renegade. Allowing Saren the option to go paragon breaks his character motives. And if he were allowed to take a paragon action where established canon states he went renegade, it would be rewritting canon history, creating, in essence, an 'elseworld' galactic setting.

2. Who are the antagonist's?

Given that Saren and Soveriegn can pretty much carve their way trhough anything but Shepard, the odds are hardly stacked against them as they progress their plans. This lack of drama depletes the fuel needed in an action game that relies on conflict to make the story interesting.

Every story needs a good villain for the Protag to rail against. And by casting the villain as the hero, you automatically pound a nail in to the coffin of the narrative. After all, if the villain is suddenly the hero, then the hero is then, by logical extension, the villain. And Shepard is not the villain of ME but the hero. And there cannot be two hero's fighting opposing views. Which means Saren can not be the hero. Which means that the player is playing a protagonsit who is the villain.

And Seiv doesn't think of the Reapers as Villains, yet has generated an idea whereby the Villain Saren is working alongside a Reaper. Who controls Saren. Making the Reaper, in essence, a villain who encourages Saren's violoent behaviour, rather than modifying it to be less destructive.

Look. The idea is nice as a cloud dream. But as a treatment it's a non starter. Hence the Dead Parrot quotes. The idea is being held on it's perch by nails of one persons wants. Not narrative chohesiveness.

The only way this idea generates momentum is if it's moved into the fan creation folder and treated as an elseworld piece of fan fiction.

[AlexMBrennan]

it would be rewritting canon history, creating, in essence, an 'elseworld' galactic setting.

Well, that's sorta the point of an opposing force AU

[Redbelle]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

it would be rewritting canon history, creating, in essence, an 'elseworld' galactic setting.

Well, that's sorta the point of an opposing force AU

Then the OP needs to do himself a favour.

Use Nihlus as the Protag instead of Saren.

1. Nihlus has less character history and will thus be easier to write for.

2. By using Nihlus, Saren doesn't shoot him in the head. Thereby automatically making Saren less Villianess.

[Seival]

Redbelle wrote...

Look...... Let's dissect a few issues that this idea will raise.

1. What are the advantages and disadvantages of having Saren as a Protag.

Ad's - He is an established character and established ally of Sovereign the action can kick straight off with minimal character introduction.

Dis - Saren will be hard to get people invested in as a playable protagonsit as his character has been established as hating humans and is pure renegade. To this end. His eastablshed charactisation makes him ineligible to use as a paragon/renegade dialogue choice crossroad as, as he has been portreyed in print and digital, he will always go renegade. Allowing Saren the option to go paragon breaks his character motives. And if he were allowed to take a paragon action where established canon states he went renegade, it would be rewritting canon history, creating, in essence, an 'elseworld' galactic setting.

2. Who are the antagonist's?

Given that Saren and Soveriegn can pretty much carve their way trhough anything but Shepard, the odds are hardly stacked against them as they progress their plans. This lack of drama depletes the fuel needed in an action game that relies on conflict to make the story interesting.

Every story needs a good villain for the Protag to rail against. And by casting the villain as the hero, you automatically pound a nail in to the coffin of the narrative. After all, if the villain is suddenly the hero, then the hero is then, by logical extension, the villain. And Shepard is not the villain of ME but the hero. And there cannot be two hero's fighting opposing views. Which means Saren can not be the hero. Which means that the player is playing a protagonsit who is the villain.

And Seiv doesn't think of the Reapers as Villains, yet has generated an idea whereby the Villain Saren is working alongside a Reaper. Who controls Saren. Making the Reaper, in essence, a villain who encourages Saren's violoent behaviour, rather than modifying it to be less destructive.

Look. The idea is nice as a cloud dream. But as a treatment it's a non starter. Hence the Dead Parrot quotes. The idea is being held on it's perch by nails of one persons wants. Not narrative chohesiveness.

The only way this idea generates momentum is if it's moved into the fan creation folder and treated as an elseworld piece of fan fiction.

Personally, I think that Paragon-Renegade system is obsolete. Game can provide you with different choices to make without that "black-and-white" pattern. And it will be up to you which decisions are "good", and which decisions are "evil".

We know very little about Saren. He made few renegade decisions, yes. But what about the rest of the opposing force story? And what if Anderson lied about Saren? More importantly, why not give player a chance to see the story from completely different perspective "from the other side of the barricades"?

I think there is nothing bad in forcing the opposing story in favour of Saren. And there is nothing bad in giving Saren chances to do "good things". For example, you could choose between blowing the Eden Prime colony up, or just stealing the beacon; between shooting Nihilus and just disabling him; between convincing Shepard and fighting her; between attacking the Citadel and infiltrating the Citadel. And so on. I think that would be very interesting story.

Also, it's possible to build very interesting character development system (in terms of combat and non-combat skills) around Saren who ended up augmented to the bone. Something like we've seen in DE:HR, but even more complicated and interesting. Even Nazara's ability to control Saren directly can be used as part of combat gameplay, temporary making Saren stronger, faster, and more durable.



This doesn't have to be a trilogy. But such game could become one of the best next-gen RPGs.

Modifié par Seival, 22 juin 2013 - 03:53 .

[firesprite1123]

We know very little about Saren. He made few renegade decisions, yes. But what about the rest of the opposing force story? And what if Anderson lied about Saren? More importantly, why not give player a chance to see the story from completely different perspective "from the other side of the barricades"?

i'm sensing that you haven't read revelations because Anderson didn't lie about Saren

[Redbelle]

Seival wrote...

Redbelle wrote...

Look...... Let's dissect a few issues that this idea will raise.

1. What are the advantages and disadvantages of having Saren as a Protag.

Ad's - He is an established character and established ally of Sovereign the action can kick straight off with minimal character introduction.

Dis - Saren will be hard to get people invested in as a playable protagonsit as his character has been established as hating humans and is pure renegade. To this end. His eastablshed charactisation makes him ineligible to use as a paragon/renegade dialogue choice crossroad as, as he has been portreyed in print and digital, he will always go renegade. Allowing Saren the option to go paragon breaks his character motives. And if he were allowed to take a paragon action where established canon states he went renegade, it would be rewritting canon history, creating, in essence, an 'elseworld' galactic setting.

2. Who are the antagonist's?

Given that Saren and Soveriegn can pretty much carve their way trhough anything but Shepard, the odds are hardly stacked against them as they progress their plans. This lack of drama depletes the fuel needed in an action game that relies on conflict to make the story interesting.

Every story needs a good villain for the Protag to rail against. And by casting the villain as the hero, you automatically pound a nail in to the coffin of the narrative. After all, if the villain is suddenly the hero, then the hero is then, by logical extension, the villain. And Shepard is not the villain of ME but the hero. And there cannot be two hero's fighting opposing views. Which means Saren can not be the hero. Which means that the player is playing a protagonsit who is the villain.

And Seiv doesn't think of the Reapers as Villains, yet has generated an idea whereby the Villain Saren is working alongside a Reaper. Who controls Saren. Making the Reaper, in essence, a villain who encourages Saren's violoent behaviour, rather than modifying it to be less destructive.

Look. The idea is nice as a cloud dream. But as a treatment it's a non starter. Hence the Dead Parrot quotes. The idea is being held on it's perch by nails of one persons wants. Not narrative chohesiveness.

The only way this idea generates momentum is if it's moved into the fan creation folder and treated as an elseworld piece of fan fiction.

Personally, I think that Paragon-Renegade system is obsolete. Game can provide you with different choices to make without that "black-and-white" pattern. And it will be up to you which decisions are "good", and which decisions are "evil".

We know very little about Saren. He made few renegade decisions, yes. But what about the rest of the opposing force story? And what if Anderson lied about Saren? More importantly, why not give player a chance to see the story from completely different perspective "from the other side of the barricades"?

I think there is nothing bad in forcing the opposing story in favour of Saren. And there is nothing bad in giving Saren chances to do "good things". For example, you could choose between blowing the Eden Prime colony up, or just stealing the beacon; between shooting Nihilus and just disabling him; between convincing Shepard and fighting her; between attacking the Citadel and infiltrating the Citadel. And so on. I think that would be very interesting story.

Also, it's possible to build very interesting character development system (in terms of combat and non-combat skills) around Saren who ended up augmented to the bone. Something like we've seen in DE:HR, but even more complicated and interesting. Even Nazara's ability to control Saren directly can be used as part of combat gameplay, temporary making Saren stronger, faster, and more durable.



This doesn't have to be a trilogy. But such game could become one of the best next-gen RPGs.

Seiv. Stick this in fan creation. All your points amount to 'what if's'.

This is a fan fiction. It is obvious through reading what you wrote that you are hooked on the alternative possibilities that 'could' have occured.

Everything you have postulated did not happen. Anderson did not lie. The extended universe paperback that details what happened between them demonstrates this. You are rewriting another persons narrative in your head to suit your sensibilities.

(A year and a half ago after it all came to an end). <_<

All that is now left to do is to see if you have what it takes to turn one and a half years of Hug a Reaper into something tangible.

The idea's aren't bad. The context you put them into and the loose framework of rewriting the ME trilogy is aweful and will continually trip you if you aren't up to thinking of of how to get around them.. And I'm not going to spur you on. This is your project. I've been pointing out the flaws in your narrative, now it's time to see if you can overcome them or run headlong into them.

But let's be clear. Is this a written word narrative your going for? Or a full fledged game. Because if it's a game you want to develop I'll be blunt. Your wasting your time and mine on a pipe dream that will amount to nothing and there are many other things you could be doing that are more productive.

P.s. If you can't even rationalise Saren's character without skipping over the hard bit's of who he is in context with him not shooting Nihulus then I take all that back. You are swimming in circles, never getting closer to your destination. Pick where you want to be and get there. Otherwise you'll spend another year and a half on this before the drive fizzles away leaving you with nothing to show for it.

[Redbelle]

firesprite1123 wrote...

We know very little about Saren. He made few renegade decisions, yes. But what about the rest of the opposing force story? And what if Anderson lied about Saren? More importantly, why not give player a chance to see the story from completely different perspective "from the other side of the barricades"?

i'm sensing that you haven't read revelations because Anderson didn't lie about Saren

He clearly never read how Saren held back medical aid his victim was already recieving till he intervened. Which resulted in her death...... and how he then kept the aid back for longer just to make sure. Before replacing what he took so no one would know he killed her.

Whether we measure through number of Renegade actions, or the scale of renegade actions. Saren is pure evil to humans. The only thing holding him back is a snse of preserving his station as a Spectre so he can be in a position to do more harm to others while operating under the guise of protecting galactic interests.

Modifié par Redbelle, 22 juin 2013 - 04:56 .

[RaenImrahl]

Not ME3 related. If you want to make fan fiction, use one of the fan fic forums.