181 réponses à ce sujet

[Seboist]

All the ME2 squadmates are superfluous besides Mordin and Miranda(somewhat). Not hard to come up with characters to cut from that.

[TheWerdna]

Seboist wrote...

All the ME2 squadmates are superfluous besides Mordin and Miranda(somewhat). Not hard to come up with characters to cut from that.

Tali and Legion both played about as big a role as Mordin did, but besides that I agree, everyone other ME2 squadmate got screwed.

[MegaSovereign]

Well, Mordin didn't let me sell his body.

Wait, that came out wrong.

[FlamingBoy]

Personally OP, I thought most of the romances, apart from Liara, were pretty weak.

[Sir DeLoria]

J. Reezy wrote...

Tali and Legion played as much of a role in ME2 as Mordin? That must've been some additional content that I didn't get.

No, but Tali and Garus were the only original squadmates. In fact, they are the only characters to have appeared as full squadmates in all three games. Tali is a key figure in the series, since she is the one who found out about the Reapers in the first place. Garus, well Garus is just awesome.

A character doesn't need to have a major role during the plot of a game to be relevant.

Legion was added too late in the game imo.

Modifié par Necanor, 23 juin 2013 - 08:58 .

[nos_astra]

Necanor wrote...
No, but Tali and Garus were the only original squadmates. In fact, they are the only characters to have appeared as full squadmates in all three games. Tali is a key figure in the series, since she is the one who found out about the Reapers in the first place. Garus, well Garus is just awesome.

A character doesn't need to have a major role during the plot of a game to be relevant.

Legion was added too late in the game imo.

Not a major role, no. But characters need to serve a role. You certainly can't have characters take up a huge role and have little relevance.

Tali has limited screentime but introduces a very personal note to the quarian/geth conflict ... which is eventually undermined by the "Shepard's biggest fan" and "wanna be a real boy" aspects of Legion. Her way of life would have been an interesting thing to explore. She could have offered more insight on why the quarians act like they do. Instead the quarians held her hostage for no other purpose than have her playing damsel in distress who needs to be saved by the protagonist from the morons that are her people. Instead way too much fangirling on Tali's part with little to balance it out.

Garrus has a huge amount of screentime but sadly serves no purpose other than player ego-stroking and delivering one-liners. The fact that "Garrus is just awesome" is a strong sign that the character has little to offer and is mainly inoffensive because he doesn't really do anything. A pretty boring concept to begin with.

He'd be very high up on the list of characters I'd cut (with Jack, Thane, Grund, Samara, Morinth, Jacob, Kasumi, Zaeed, James, EDI (avatar), Kelly, ...) to make more room for characters with a more solid foundation.

Anyway, I also would have appreciated a lot more subtlety in the romances. I enjoy a bit of will they/won't they and emotional attachment ... but seriously ... openly boinking people under your command or guidance is a bit off-putting. Especially when sex with them could kill you or them.
Most romances were lacking proper build-up and there was little acknowledgement of what stands in the way. None of the romances stood a good chance of continuining for all eternity, technically, as there was little time to get to know each other but the participants seemed too committed too soon. Weird.

Modifié par klarabella, 23 juin 2013 - 02:12 .

[CynicalShep]

@ klarabella: everybody is promiscuous when BAMF "The Shepard" enters the fray. He/she is just that attractive.

[Sir DeLoria]

Well if it was for me, Mass Effect could have been only about Shep, Tali and the Quarians. Yeah, she's a total Shep fanboy I get it, but she's been this way ever since ME1.

I also would have put a much larger proportion of the game into romances, but seeing as though there are many action oriented ME players, who don't care about the story, that would have been difficult for BW.

Too committed, too soon? Yes, but there's a reason why. Let's not forget, that Shep and his team are soldiers, they're actively fighting a war. There's simply not enough time to het to know each other well. During and after WW2, it was not unusual for GIs to marry someone after knowing them for only a few weeks/months.

Also, the reason why Tali is such a Shep fan, or why she is so in love with him, is because he saved her twice from certain death. 

Quote Tali: “What could I possibly be suggesting? I mean, a young woman gets rescued by a dashing commander who lets her join his crew and then goes off to save the galaxy? How could she possibly develop any kind of interest in him?”

Modifié par Necanor, 23 juin 2013 - 12:42 .

[Bleachrude]

klarabella wrote...



Garrus has a huge amount of screentime but sadly serves no purpose other than player ego-stroking and delivering one-liners. The fact that "Garrus is just awesome" is a strong sign that the character has little to offer and is mainly inoffensive because he doesn't really do anything. A pretty boring concept to begin with.

He'd be very high up on the list of characters I'd cut (with Jack, Thane, Grund, Samara, Morinth, Jacob, Kasumi, Zaeed, James, EDI (avatar), Kelly, ...) to make more room for characters with a more solid foundation.

I can see where you're going with this (miranda fan I assume) but I tend to disagree since you're REALLY cutting down on the non-human aspect of the crew. Is the basis that a squadmate has to be tied to the three big issues of ME (genophage, morning war, reapers)? Personally, Jack I think has to be included since you need a counterpoint to Miranda who is pro-cerberus right up till the decision to blow up the collector base, similarly, you need Grunt against Mordin and Tali with Legion.

klarabella wrote....
Most romances were lacking proper build-up and there was little acknowledgement of what stands in the way. None of the romances stood a good chance of continuining for all eternity, technically, as there was little time to get to know each other but the participants seemed too committed too soon. Weird.

Ironically, this is why I think Garrus has the best romance arc throughout the three games. To romance Garrus in ME3, you needed to have romanced him in ME2 but to do that, you had to actually recruit him in ME1 (remember, you could've left both Garrus and Wrex at the citadel after the evidence about Saren had been exposed)

Thus, you had to get to know him in ME1 first and actually start a romance with him in ME2 (and not in ME3 since his focus is on the war).

Everyone else other than Tali can be romanced in the same game which I always find weird....

[Dextro Milk]

Bleachrude wrote...

Everyone else other than Tali can be romanced in the same game which I always find weird....

IIRC, Tali has the same setup as Garrus.

You can leave Tali on the Citadel in Mass Effect 1 I'm pretty sure, and she must be romanced in 2 before you can romance her in 3.

Actually, I'm not too sure on leaving her back in Mass Effect 1, but other than that, it makes sense her setup is close to Garrus.

Modifié par Dextro Milk, 23 juin 2013 - 04:45 .

[Melbella]

Dextro Milk wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

Everyone else other than Tali can be romanced in the same game which I always find weird....

IIRC, Tali has the same setup as Garrus.

You can leave Tali on the Citadel in Mass Effect 1 I'm pretty sure, and she must be romanced in 2 before you can romance her in 3.

Actually, I'm not too sure on leaving her back in Mass Effect 1, but other than that, it makes sense her setup is close to Garrus.

No, you can't leave Tali behind in ME1. My renegade Shep tried and Udina made me take her anyway.

[Dextro Milk]

@Melbella

Ha, the only thing he does that I ever approve! 

Modifié par Dextro Milk, 23 juin 2013 - 05:44 .

[CptData]

Necanor wrote...

No, but Tali and Garus were the only original squadmates. In fact, they are the only characters to have appeared as full squadmates in all three games. Tali is a key figure in the series, since she is the one who found out about the Reapers in the first place. Garus, well Garus is just awesome.

A character doesn't need to have a major role during the plot of a game to be relevant.

Legion was added too late in the game imo.

From a writer's PoV, I must say your statement is not correct.

A character needs a role in a plot, otherwise the character is useless and can be removed entirely. I'm not saying every character needs to fill an important role lasting an entire story, no. But I -do- say a character needs a role and several points in the story where his/her presence is justified.

That's one of the big issue Ashley (and Kaidan) has, same for several other characters. She has a role in ME1 but none in ME2. In ME3, her role is spanning only the first half of the game, while in the second half, Ash is reduced to her romance role which also doesn't feel complete. That means, from a writer's PoV, Ashley's presence isn't justified in the second half of ME3. From said PoV, she either must die in the coup - or gets sent to Hackett's team. In both cases her story arc ends properly.

Just my 2 cents ...

[Bleachrude]

CptData wrote...

Necanor wrote...

No, but Tali and Garus were the only original squadmates. In fact, they are the only characters to have appeared as full squadmates in all three games. Tali is a key figure in the series, since she is the one who found out about the Reapers in the first place. Garus, well Garus is just awesome.

A character doesn't need to have a major role during the plot of a game to be relevant.

Legion was added too late in the game imo.

From a writer's PoV, I must say your statement is not correct.

A character needs a role in a plot, otherwise the character is useless and can be removed entirely. I'm not saying every character needs to fill an important role lasting an entire story, no. But I -do- say a character needs a role and several points in the story where his/her presence is justified.

That's one of the big issue Ashley (and Kaidan) has, same for several other characters. She has a role in ME1 but none in ME2. In ME3, her role is spanning only the first half of the game, while in the second half, Ash is reduced to her romance role which also doesn't feel complete. That means, from a writer's PoV, Ashley's presence isn't justified in the second half of ME3. From said PoV, she either must die in the coup - or gets sent to Hackett's team. In both cases her story arc ends properly.

Just my 2 cents ...

What exactly WAS her role in ME1? Same goes with Kaidan...why couldn't you keep Jenkins instead? How much of a difference in story would you actually see...

[CptData]

Bleachrude wrote...

What exactly WAS her role in ME1? Same goes with Kaidan...why couldn't you keep Jenkins instead? How much of a difference in story would you actually see...

Both characters had a similar purpose:
- LI
- Alliance squadmates
- Virmire decision

Tbh, with exception of Liara, all characters had only one or two plot points where they added anything to the story. However, you also need to keep in mind ME1 had a quite short primary storyline. ME2 and ME3 had much longer primary plots.

[Sir DeLoria]

Yes, a character should be at least to some extent relevant to the plot. However, what if a character isn't directly relevant plotwise, but very well writen and has a unique personality/is very intriguing?

[jtav]

You can cut Zaeed, Samara, Kasumi, Grunt, and Thane, without the plot being affected in the slightest. Garrus, too, but I have some sense of self-preservation.

A lot of the ME3 squad had no business on the squad or should have joined later than they did. Isn't the VS supposed to be a Spectre of equal or greater rank? Shouldn't their role in the galaxy reflect that? Liara is the SB. That should be her story role, and she should have joined after the midpoint, with the loss of her ship a playable mission. Tali should stay on Rannoch. Meanwhile, allow Jack/Miranda/Jacob to join you for a four-mission Sanctuary/Grissom/Gellix/Cronos arc where you hunt Cerberus.

[Sir DeLoria]

jtav wrote...

You can cut Zaeed, Samara, Kasumi, Grunt, and Thane, without the plot being affected in the slightest. Garrus, too, but I have some sense of self-preservation.

A lot of the ME3 squad had no business on the squad or should have joined later than they did. Isn't the VS supposed to be a Spectre of equal or greater rank? Shouldn't their role in the galaxy reflect that? Liara is the SB. That should be her story role, and she should have joined after the midpoint, with the loss of her ship a playable mission. Tali should stay on Rannoch. Meanwhile, allow Jack/Miranda/Jacob to join you for a four-mission Sanctuary/Grissom/Gellix/Cronos arc where you hunt Cerberus.

Are you kidding me? Tali and Garrus are the classic team. The reason why they're in every game is because they're supposed to represent Shep's most trusted and loyal companions, they are also some of the few non human squadmates. There is no Garrus without Tali.

I think it was good how they handled Jack, Jacob and Miranda, those characters didn't need to be full squadmates. Kasumi and Zaeed are dlc anyway.

[Bleachrude]

Jtav, you're cutting all the non-humans from the squad so I'm somewhat leery about the "must be relevant to the plot" especially given that the 2nd game had such a big focus on cerberus.

At the least I do think you need one teammate from each of the council races....

[jtav]

I deliberately didn't cut Garrus. But okay, if I were writing these games, my squad list would be:

ME2:
Miranda
Jacob
Garrus
Tali
Jack
Legion

ME3

Permanent squad
EDI
James
Javik (not DLC)
Garrus
Liara

Temporary
Wrex (Sur'Kesh and Tuchanka)
Tali (Rannoch missions)
Miranda (Revise Cerberus arc into a four mission Sanctuary/Grissom/Gellix/Cronos chain)
Jack/Jacob (as Miranda, after their mission, possibly mutually exclusive)

[Sir DeLoria]

How about leaving it up to the player, make the temporary squadmates optional squadmates? Though I can't fathom how anyone would favor James and EDI(the two most unnecessary squadmates in the series) over Tali and Wrex.

[o Ventus]

Necanor wrote...

Are you kidding me? Tali and Garrus are the classic team.

Which is why I never took them anywhere in any of the 3 games except where their presence was required. Classic, my ass.

I think it was good how they handled Jack,

Total personality change; is seen twice in the entire game.

Jacob

Cheats on you, retroactively breaks up with you, and then goes on and does nothing whatsoever.

and Miranda, those characters didn't need to be full squadmates.

Miranda's strange insistence on finding Oriana by herself only serves to make her look f**king stupid (also a fault on Shepard for not even bothering to tell her that the Shadow Broker is on the ship). Her odd insistence on secrecy during the apartment scene is also pointless; it doesn't add any drama. From a romance perspective, it's even worse. Even speaking from a non-romance POV, Miranda should hae been on the Normandy full time. What better place to hide from assassins and find your sister than a ship that has the most advanced stealth technology in the entire galaxy, with the f**kig Shadow Broker on board? Jack, and the very least, should have been a temporary squadmate for Cronos.

[Sir DeLoria]

Yeah I know their characters were messed up(psychotic biotic etc), I meant gameplay wise.