92 réponses à ce sujet

[RedCaesar97]

brad2240 wrote...
... ME3 Insanity is not a huge leap  from Normal so playing on easier settings helps more. 

Looking at my wall of text here, I have to believe that ME2 has the steepest learning curve and is more punishing of mistakes. 3 might have some deeper mechanics to it but overall its an easier time getting there.

Pretty much my thoughts.



In Mass Effect 1 and 2, I started at Normal difficulty and worked my way up to Insanity. In Mass Effect 3, I started at Normal (to experience the story and learn some of the new mechanics), then jumped to Insanity.

In ME1, the enemies on Insanity can deal much more damage and can take a lot more damage just by having insane amounts of health, plus a lot of the organic enemies tend to spam Immunity. Assuming you start a new game on Insanity (not New Game+ with an existing character), the "difficulty" in ME1 Insanity is all front-loaded. Early game you have few powers of your own and most have 60-second cooldowns. You have garbage weapons, no good mods, no good armor. Soldier has it the worst power-wise, while the casters can get more powers early to play with. Insanity becomes much easier once you get more powers and level them up and get better gear. Typically around level 35 or even sooner, all challenge is pretty much gone.

In ME2, the difference between Normal and Veteran is slightly noticeable, but the jump from Veteran to Hardcore is very noticeable. Starting on Hardcore, all enemies now have some form of protection which forces you to change your tactics and may change your choice of squadmates. Hardcore to Insanity means enemies have more health and protections and deal more damage. The difference between Normal and Insane is... insane really.

In ME3, enemies have more health and deal more damage, but that is it. I found the jump from Normal to Insanity not that difficult. In fact I was surprised at how easy Insanity seemed compared to Normal. I am sure I died a few more times, but it was nothing like ME2 Insanity. I will admit that I was playing with an Infiltrator, but at the time I still thought that it had a lot of the same mechanics as ME2, so I was using the Tempest for shields and the Phalynx for armor, and I still did not know how to perform a tech combo.

And considering how power combos scale according to difficulty, plus the some overpowered DLC weapons, changes to fire explosions, some Multiplayer weapon and power balance changes that made it into single player, and Insanity is even easier now than at launch.

Probably the hardest time on Insanity I ever had was in the single player demo with the Engineer class, since you were stuck with four weapons and no real way to deal any significant damage quickly to the enemies you faced. 

I am by no means a good player. I am an average player at best. I have never soloed Platinum or Gold in multiplayer. I can still die a lot on Insanity, and usually do if I am completely careless or reckless or purposely using a sub-optimal build or playstyle. But ME3 Insanity is significantly easier than ME2 Insanity.

Modifié par RedCaesar97, 04 juillet 2013 - 03:22 .

[Kaos_Scorpio]

I think the overall reason ME3 insanity felt easy is due to the additional mobility. ME1 lacked the mobility of 3 but you had a lot of powers at your disposal and they worked whether or not your enemy had a shield. 2 didn't have much mobility and seemed that every piece of cover was a mile away. The ability to roll into cover and sprint from wall piece of cover to another made 3 dramatically easier. I feel 2 was harder because the combat was incomplete and death was often due to poor design.

[Athenau]

While I think ME2's insanity is harder than ME3's, I have to agree with Williestyle's assessment in a lot of ways.

ME2's design felt polished, but very rigid and stripped down. Game mechanics were straightforward, and finding optimal builds and strategies took little time. The simple hard counter system for both weapons and powers meant that theorycrafters had much less to play with. Combat was solid and meaty, but at the same time much less fluid than ME3.

ME3, on the other hand, was much messier out the gate. Game mechanics didn't always interact in obvious ways, and many of them were half-baked (weight system) or buggy (incendiary stacking in MP). But at the same time the system gives you much more freedom to experiment, combat is faster paced (and ultimately more enjoyable) and the game has more mechanical depth and variety (especially with the weapon/skill rebalance in the last patch).

When all's said and done, I can't ever see myself going back to ME2 (and I played the **** out of that game). It just feels too clunky and limiting now.

My ideal base going forward would be a mix of ME1 (bring back heat management and the big-bang biotics on high cooldowns) with ME3 (dodges, melee, toned-down combos, cover penetration, weapon variety, easy reload canceling). A mix of larger maps (ME2 was particularly bad in this regard) and setpiece battles would be nice too.

Modifié par Athenau, 04 juillet 2013 - 05:13 .

[OniGanon]

When I play an Infiltrator and find that using my signature ability or much of any other powers is a pointless waste of time because they're massively overkill for 80% of the main campaign, I would say there is something VERY WRONG with the game's difficulty.

Was ME2 perfect? No, certainly not. Did ME3 offer anything good? Of course it did. The deeper power evolutions, increased mobility, grenades, power comboes, weight system, better melee, that's all cool.

But the game is just so damn easy that there is no need for powers, or smart squad selection, or comboes, or positioning, or tactics, or thinking. Shoot everything in the face with a Valiant, Carnifex, Paladin, Crusader, Saber or Black Widow. Congratulations you've won the game. Pfft.

[billpickles]

WillieStyle wrote...

billpickles wrote...

Have you played much multiplayer, Willie? I think that's what really makes ME3 SP so easy. Once you advance to a point where Gold MP is comfortable, your perspective on cover use changes completely and SP becomes a cakewalk. I recently did the SP DLCs for the first time and got through both in a single try without much problem.

I missed this previously, but are you saying you one-shot every fight in both DLC the first time you played them?!  If so, then you sir are a god amongst men.

Sorry, I was being unclear with that sentence.  I did beat the final fights for each DLC in one shot, which were the fights you had referenced earlier, but not the whole DLC.  Well actually, I don't recall dying on Omega at all, but the opening of Citadel in the restaurant took me quite a few tries untill I realized it was better to just cloak and run past them all, and the segment right before you get your first squadmate took a few tries as well.  Maybe I just got lucky on the final fight, but I did it first try (yes, on Insanity).

That said, I really don't think I'm an ME3 god of any sort.  I just think MP helped me with soft cover use and trained me how to prioritize targets and put enemies down as quickly as possible, mostly with combos.

As for your claim above the quoted post that this is a bizarre form of bragging, I really don't think it is.  I readily admitted that there are some areas in ME2 that I still often die on.  I just find ME3 a lot easier.  I probably die more on ME2 Normal than ME3 Insanity, though I think playing nothing but MP for like 7 straight months between my first and second playthroughs might have something to do with that.

Modifié par billpickles, 04 juillet 2013 - 06:55 .

[billpickles]

WillieStyle wrote...

billpickles wrote...
Your argument that ME3 feels easier because I spent so much time on ME2 would make sense if I wasn't still playing all 3 games regularly. When I finish a playthrough, I start all the way back at ME1 and do the whole thing again. If ME3 were only easier due to practice, wouldn't ME2 feel just as easy now?

Here's something else I missed previously that is relevant to one of the points I'm trying to make.  The answer to your question is no.  

One argument I'm trying to make in this thread is that ME3's gameplay is "richer" than ME2's.  There are more ways for the player to actively mitigate enemy damage.  There are more real differences between weapons.  There are more ways for the player to synergize her skills/powers to the idiosyncracies of a given gun.  There are more ways to symbiotically combine the player and squadmates' powers for dramatic effect.  Given this richer gameplay, I posit that ME3 will have a steeper learning curve (ie.  it will take longer for a player that has experienced neither game to master ME3's gameplay).  However, the difference in effectiveness between a novice player and one who has mastered the gameplay is greater in ME3 than it is in ME2 (again because of the "richer" gameplay).  

Therefore, when first experiencing both games, ME3 will appear harder.  However, after both games have been mastered, it is possible that ME2 will appear more difficult.

What's the point of all this?  Well I'm not here to brag or knock the skills of anyone.  I'm discussing this topic in the off chance that Bioware devs still read these forums so that my input may influence (however slightly) the development of ME4.  

My input to a game developer (if they were asking for it) is:

-Giving the player plenty of active ways to mitigate damage and combine their powers for increased effect is a good thing, despite the fact that it will make the game appear easier to players after they've beaten it several times and read dozens of theorycrafting threads on the forums.

-When attempting to estimate the difficulty of the game, judge it based on the margin of error the player faces (ie. probability of death/failure) not on the length of time it takes an experienced player to defeat each encounter.

-When attempting to estimate the difficulty of the game, use the perspective of the player when they've first purchased the game, on their first few play throughs.  Do not use the perspective of the player after they have a year's worth of experience and theorycraft under their belts.  Supplimental DLC can be used to challenge such players instead.

Of course, it's entirely likely that Bioware doesn't need me to tell them any of that.  But there's my two cents nevertheless.

I get your point that there is more to learn in ME3 as far as combos and other mechanics and that experience therefore makes a greater difference.  But I have to disagree that the difficulty of Insanity should be judged from the perspective of a first-time player, though I might share that opinion for Normal.  I have to echo Red and say that I think Insanity is intended as an additional challenge for those who have mastered Normal/Veteran.  I'm sure there are players that flip right to Insanity on the first go, but I would imagine most do Normal the first time.

[WillieStyle]

billpickles wrote...

I get your point that there is more to learn in ME3 as far as combos and other mechanics and that experience therefore makes a greater difference.  But I have to disagree that the difficulty of Insanity should be judged from the perspective of a first-time player, though I might share that opinion for Normal.  I have to echo Red and say that I think Insanity is intended as an additional challenge for those who have mastered Normal/Veteran.  I'm sure there are players that flip right to Insanity on the first go, but I would imagine most do Normal the first time.

This is a good point (that was raised by others as well).  I need to rethink my premise about how to evaluate the difficulty of a game.  While I'm not convinced that we should use the current perspective of the dedicated fan base (I still think a year is far too long), developers probably shouldn't use the perspective of the total novice either; at least when it comes to evaluating the highest difficulty level.

[shillyard]

I'll add my comments on the ME2/ME3 insanity gameplay.

First note that I tend to like systems/battles where powers, if used right,
can make a huge difference (and used badly/wrong makes you dead)--
so in mass effect I tend towards the adept/engineer classes.

So what I thought ME2 did quite well is balance powers vs. cool down vs.
guns.

Take the adept class.  Once leveled up, pull and throw could basically
be used at will.  However, on insanity those powers were pretty useless
without some help:  shoot out the shields then pull or area incinerate
the armor off a group of husks then throw/throw/throw.  Warp, for example,
was generally useful but had a longer cooldown, long enough that
you couldn't stop the approaching Krogan (I didn't like that the Krogan
in ME2 never really ran all that fast as they would in ME1) before he
killed you without mixing in gunfire or getting help from you team mates.

In ME3, on the other hand, powers are so effective and cool downs
are so fast with the 200% weapon loadouts that you can almost approach
any combat by continually using one power, and definitely by chaining
two like warp and throw or incinerate and overload.  No shooting or
maneuvering or picking key targets is really necessary--just keep an eye
out for grenades.

What I think would have been interesting in the movement from ME2 to
ME3 is to further the armor/shields/barrier difference.  For example
have barriers make you absolutely immune to powers such as pull
and throw, but have much less effect on powers such as incinerate and
cryoblast.  Shields would tend to be the opposite and armor would
be extremely effective against bullets but not shield very well against
the effect of most of the tech/biotic powers.

This would have added a lot of variation to class defenses along with
the powers.  For example, a soldier, with armor, would be able to
tank to some extent against bullets even on insanity but would need
to watch out for the asari commando lest he gets thrown.  A vanguard would
have a barrier as default (maybe armor could also be added at higher
levels) so couldn't be pulled or shockwaved out of cover, but
wouldn't want to charge into an engineers view and get frozen (he
would, however, be able to charge and knock the engineer into
oblivion).

I also think that almost all the enemies should have had health
under the armor.  It was satisfying to finally pull/throw that
annoying Krogan or freeze the ymir mech.  It would have been
similarly so against brutes and banshees.

[OscuraShiva]

ME 2 and 3 are easy. The 2 may be harder in the beginning but it gets easy after 10 hours or so of gameplay. Just the time to collect some major upgrade and to maximize your character most important skills.

I've played with the engineer and it gets very boring when you're facing organic enemies inside buildings. They use Immunity very often and with Warp it takes some time to take them down.
That said, AI Hacking and Lift+Throw makes every area easy.

[squaredgonzo]

NG+ Infiltrator. The Garrus recruitment mission.. almost gouged my own damned eyes on the shutter.

[Locutus_of_BORG]

RedCaesar97 wrote...

In ME2, the difference between Normal and Veteran is slightly noticeable, but the jump from Veteran to Hardcore is very noticeable. Starting on Hardcore, all enemies now have some form of protection which forces you to change your tactics and may change your choice of squadmates. Hardcore to Insanity means enemies have more health and protections and deal more damage. The difference between Normal and Insane is... insane really.

In ME3, enemies have more health and deal more damage, but that is it. I found the jump from Normal to Insanity not that difficult. In fact I was surprised at how easy Insanity seemed compared to Normal. I am sure I died a few more times, but it was nothing like ME2 Insanity. I will admit that I was playing with an Infiltrator, but at the time I still thought that it had a lot of the same mechanics as ME2, so I was using the Tempest for shields and the Phalynx for armor, and I still did not know how to perform a tech combo.

Totally agree. The reason ME3's difficulty scales so poorly is completely because they scrapped the protection mechanics from ME2 without really adding any new checks and balances to compensate.

In ME2 Insanity, any enemy with any protection was practically immune to CC effects, in addition to having far greater HP over Normal (increased base health plus additional protection layer). The AI could punish you for missed shots / whiffed powers by swarming you with massed, perfectly accurate fire.

In ME3 Insanity, enemies have extra health and aggression, but they are otherwise just as vulnerable to staggers, lifting, ragdolling and all manner of CC tricks as in Normal. It doesn't matter that they are tougher or smarter or more aggressive when you can instantly sit them on their butts with Chain Overload and then off them with a few double-damage headshots via ragdoll bonus. Add the plethora of cheap and quick power combos that can practically permastun, if not kill entire spawns in just a few chains.

For future ME titles, I hope they have the sense to build on ME3's fluidity, while not going overboard with flashy elements that just make the gameplay brainless and trivial.

[NeonFlux117]

 ME2 is way tougher. ME3 is challenging but more forgiving due to amazing and op weapon/power combos for example- Infiltrators equiped with a BW level 5 or greater, disruptor ammo level 6, tactical cloak speced out to max damage makes the class a dedicated sniper killing machine. Or a vanguard with a Wraith/claymore chargin in and novaing the sh!t outta bosses is just beastly. In ME2, insanity is just well, insane. It's brutal and mistakes in insanity ME2 will get you killed most of the time. ME3 is more forgiving and more open in terms of how players can prepare and approach battles. 

Modifié par NeonFlux117, 31 juillet 2013 - 10:03 .

[Ledgend1221]

ME2 is alot tougher in the Begining.

As you get upgrades though, it's easier to kill and combat becomes routine.

ME3 is just easy, enemies don't have the same protection and Shepard has access to powerful tools right away.

[BronzTrooper]

I finally did ME1 on Insanity and it was fairly hard (and I used an Engineer). Not as hard as ME2 Insanity, but still pretty hard. The melee enemies (Husks, Creepers, Rachni, Krogan when they get close) gave me the most problems. I never thought that I would use Stasis and Neural Shock so many times...

[Nashtalia]

i recall being on ME1 doing my ever [play]-through and at the part where i had to face Saren going berzerk [the one after you face him in the Citadel with him being in a hover pod thing], and it was on Normal difficulty, it was as it seemed a "veteran" difficulty

[chessplayer209]

maybe the reason people think insanity is easy for some people is because they're playing easy classes. play insanity with a more difficult class, maybe one that isn't powerbuilt.

Modifié par chessplayer209, 26 août 2013 - 12:32 .

[brad2240]

chessplayer209 wrote...

maybe the reason people think insanity is easy for some people is because they're playing easy classes. play insanity with a more difficult class, maybe one that isn't powerbuilt.

Are you talking about ME3? Which class or classes do you consider more difficult?

With the way power combos scale in 3, all classes are powerful. You'd literally have to not spend your points to make a weak character. Shepard just does that much damage.

Enemy tactics don't change on Insanity and the amount of protected enemies doesn't change. They just have more health and do more damage, so it's really only a small step up from Normal in terms of actual game difficulty. It generally doesn't even require a change in your tactics, unlike ME2's Insanity.

[Locutus_of_BORG]

brad2240 wrote...

chessplayer209 wrote...

maybe the reason people think insanity is easy for some people is because they're playing easy classes. play insanity with a more difficult class, maybe one that isn't powerbuilt.

Are you talking about ME3? Which class or classes do you consider more difficult?

With the way power combos scale in 3, all classes are powerful. You'd literally have to not spend your points to make a weak character. Shepard just does that much damage.

Enemy tactics don't change on Insanity and the amount of protected enemies doesn't change. They just have more health and do more damage, so it's really only a small step up from Normal in terms of actual game difficulty. It generally doesn't even require a change in your tactics, unlike ME2's Insanity.

Every class is absurd in ME3 and they don't have to be 'powerbuilt'. As long as you can chain any power combo, maybe have a decent weapon, and maybe play reasonably well, you can be nigh unstoppable. It's not so much the raw DPS you may or may not do - it's the fact that you can also permastun, debuff AND damage any enemy with just about anything in ME3. For example, Soldiers are the weakest class in the game, but they can own face with an Avenger, Explosive Ammo & Concussive shot - this isn't the *most* efficient build they can do, but it is the most basic and it's more than efficient enough to get you through the game handily.

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 05 septembre 2013 - 01:18 .

[known_hero]

chessplayer209 wrote...

maybe the reason people think insanity is easy for some people is because they're playing easy classes. play insanity with a more difficult class, maybe one that isn't powerbuilt.

Just out of curiosity: what classes do you consider difficult?

[Brickyracer8655]

ME1 (playing as a brand new character, not a NG+) It gets easier around level 30.

ME2

ME3

[Quarian Master Race]

 Now I'm convinced that this is all a bizzare form of bragging where people insist that difficult ME3 fights aren't hard.  I mean, of course I know how to beat those fights.  I've beaten them all on Insanity multiple times.  I asked the question about cover earlier only because someone insisted that they could stay in cover for as long as they wanted in ME3.  However, just because I know how to beat those fights, it doesn't mean that they aren't difficult.

Here's a guy who's pretty good at ME3 multiplayer commenting on how difficult the final fight in the Citadel DLC is with an Infiltrator.  And he's using a tricked-out Flare/Infiltrator build.  He and I can both admit that these fights are hard despite the fact that we've both beaten them multiple times.  I haven't the foggiest idea why the rest of you insist on pretending they're easy just because there are strategies for beating them.

 Infiltrator is literally the easiest class to win that fight with, even more than Vanguard with its charge> 1.5 second invincibility frames cheese. With a proper build and a Javelin, BW or Widow, 1 headshot eliminates shields and the next makes the clone gel. This is ridiculously easy because of the time dilation. Repeat 5 times. I actually use a Raptor on most of my playthroughs and it is basically the same strategy with more shots.

Guy's problem in the video is that he is using a claymore with disruptor and failing miserably at actually hitting anything while running around in the open like a retard, meanwhile the mooks he didn't even attempt to mop up or CC first use him for target practice.

It isn't bragging, ME3's fights totally aren't hard at all. Shepard is too overpowered, especially as a vanguard or Infiltrator. Whereas ME2 you can't cheese the builds nearly as much and mooks actually require some effort to kill and can damage you in a meaningful way if you aren't careful. I have actually had to finish/walkthrough ME2 on insanity for a couple friends who wanted the achievement for it, and both of them commented on how easy ME3 insanity is by comparison. It's a shooting gallery/ fire explosion practice with only a few fights that actually require you to think a little bit beyond "shoot everything in the face until dead" or "spam x power then y power for big boom that kills everything"

The only way you can make ME2 even close to as easy as ME3 is by using a Sentinel with assault armor or a soldier with a Mattock and maxed adrenalin rush (though at least this still requires a modicum of aiming skill, you can't just press two buttons one after the other and watch everything turn into a fireball)
 

[Farangbaa]

ME1 insanity can be extremely difficult, if you do the following:

Don't use Liara, ever.

Don't pick Vanguard, Sentinel or Adept as class for Shepard.

 

If you reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally wanna push it, don't use Kaidan as well.

[RedCaesar97]

ME1 insanity can be extremely difficult, if you do the following:

Don't use Liara, ever.

Don't pick Vanguard, Sentinel or Adept as class for Shepard.

 

If you reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally wanna push it, don't use Kaidan as well.

And if you are Soldier or Infiltrator, do not invest or use Immunity either.

[ZipZap2000]

Turning the difficulty level on mass effect 3 feels like it's not doing anything other than telling the AI to throw more grenades at you.